Augies Band = The Emperor's Theme? Yes or No?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,386]

Ok some time after the TPM CD was released it was suggested by some JW fans that the last track, Augie's Great Municipal Band was in fact a clever reworking of The Emperor's theme from Return Of The Jedi.

At the time this was a subject of fierce debate with one side stating that Williams had done a very clever thing, disguising The Emperor's Theme, just like The Emperor himself remains hidden in that film, while the other side arguid that this was just a lame, fanboy attempt to intellectualize what was at that time one of the most despised tracks Williams had ever done.

The debate never really convinced me one way or the other.

So once again.

Is Augie's Municipal Band a deliberate reworking of The Emperor's Theme from ROTJ, or is the similarity just a coincidence based upon the fact that The Emperor's Theme is a rather simple theme?

[Morlock 12]

It could be, and I like to think it is. It would show an extremely clever move by JW.

[Mr. Breathmask 624]

Yes, it is.

[Trent B 354]

When really paying attention to that cue in a way it does sound like the Emperor's theme but sped up pretty fast.

[Quintus 6,496]

I voted yes. It's just too 'similar' to be coincidence.

TGE - Who questions whether the 'deeper meaning' was ever in JW's mind at all. Indeed probably believing it was merely a play on pre- existing material, but appeared to fit cleverly well.

[Morlock 12]

I think it shows the same realm of thought as 'Anakin's theme' does. Then it was saying that this kid has Darth Vader in him, this time it is saying that over what appears to be a victory for the forces of good, it is Palpatine orchestrating everything. This 'victory' is all part of his plan.

[robthehand 3]

Yes.

[Marian Schedenig 11,694]

Yes, it is.

[Datameister 2,586]

I dunno. I never noticed it till I read about that theory a couple years ago, at which point I became a pretty big believer in it. I don't think they're close enough to negate the possibility of a coincidence, but the similarities in rhythm and melodic contour are pretty significant. Besides, I like the mental image of Maestro Williams sitting at his piano and suddenly smiling as a diabolical plan for musically expressing the idea of Palpatine's deceptive victory forms beneath that balding pate. I voted yes.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,386]

I kinda wish Roald was here.

[Marcus 395]

Yes, the answer is most unquestionably Yes. The theme truly is "the phantom menace", and I wold be unsurprised to find that this was Williams' highly thought out response to the film's title.

[Red 75]

I voted yes. The similarites are all there, and Williams must've known this.

[Dole 20]

Yes. I think the fact that it's sung by a children's chorus seals the deal in my mind. Not only is it a clever play on the Emperor's theme melodically, but it's a clever play on the theme in the way it's presented since the Emperor's theme is performed by a very different sounding choir.

[Morlock 12]

Good point, never made the choir connection.

[Trumpeteer 304]

The theme isn't as pronounced in the film version, so it would have been difficult to spot, but since "Victory Celebration" was composed for the ROTJ Special Edition I had heard something similar was being done for TPM. So I listened extra close, and found the Emperor's Theme. I clearly remember gasping out loud. My friends didn't care. They didn't even notice the theme elsewhere in the movie.

[Quintus 6,496]

Good point, never made the choir connection.

Hmm, indeed.

[Red 75]

That Williams is a crafty fellow.

[SomeNewGuy 0]

I do believe it is.

[Morlock 12]

The theme isn't as pronounced in the film version, so it would have been difficult to spot, but since "Victory Celebration" was composed for the ROTJ Special Edition I had heard something similar was being done for TPM. So I listened extra close, and found the Emperor's Theme. I clearly remember gasping out loud. My friends didn't care. They didn't even notice the theme elsewhere in the movie.

Where exactly is it? I've never noticed it.

[fommes 165]

Of course.

[Datameister 2,586]

I'm confused...call me a noob, but was that sarcasm, Morlock?

[Morlock 12]

I meant in the 'Victory Celebration' specifically.......it's a bit hard to miss in the rest of the film.

[John Crichton 4]

Yes, yes yes yes yes yes. I thought this was dead and settled.

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

Has to be.

[Morlock 12]

The theme isn't as pronounced in the film version, so it would have been difficult to spot, but since "Victory Celebration" was composed for the ROTJ Special Edition I had heard something similar was being done for TPM. So I listened extra close, and found the Emperor's Theme. I clearly remember gasping out loud.

Seriously, could you point it out? I'm listening to it as we speak, and can't hear anything that might be it.

[Datameister 2,586]

Wait...are we talking about a statement of the Emperor's theme in ROTJ's "Victory Celebration" now? If so, I've never heard or heard of such a thing. ::goes to listen:: Yup, nothing. And for the record, I rather like "Victory Celebration." It's got its problems (electric bass, that disco-esque section in the soundtrack version, and all the ya-ya-ya-ing in the children's chorus) but I like the melody itself. I think it culminates quite nicely, though I can't figure out if Williams originally meant for there to be a rest between the end of it and the start of the credits. If so, why? If not, why would he end in such a way, knowing that the edit would create an awkward 2/4 bar just before the credits AND superimpose a Bb chord on top of an Eb chord? EDIT: Really, the best solution would have been to write the entire Victory Celebration a perfect fourth higher (or a perfect fifth lower). This would have put it into C minor, the relative minor of Eb major, which is the key at the beginning of the credits. Then the transition would have been perfect.

[Red 75]

Didn't someone once claim that 'Emperor's theme' was in every Williams piece?

[Ollie 1,375]

Wasn't Roald the only one who didn't hear it?

It's too similar to be a coincidence.

[tuneman_21 0]

Ok some time after the TPM CD was released it was suggested by some JW fans that the last track, Augie's Great Municipal Band was in fact a clever reworking of The Emperor's theme from Return Of The Jedi.

At the time this was a subject of fierce debate with one side stating that Williams had done a very clever thing, disguising The Emperor's Theme, just like The Emperor himself remains hidden in that film, while the other side arguid that this was just a lame, fanboy attempt to intellectualize what was at that time one of the most despised tracks Williams had ever done.

The debate never really convinced me one way or the other.

So once again.

Is Augie's Municipal Band a deliberate reworking of The Emperor's Theme from ROTJ, or is the similarity just a coincidence based upon the fact that The Emperor's Theme is a rather simple theme?

Trust me. It is. I actually sat down at a piano and plucked it out. The intervalic relationships are slightly altered so that Augie's is in Major - as opposed to the Emperor's Theme which is minor. But, other than that, they are the exact same theme.

Wiley guy, that Johnny Williams

[Datameister 2,586]

Wiley guy, that Johnny Williams

True.

Trust me. It is. I actually sat down at a piano and plucked it out. The intervalic relationships are slightly altered so that Augie's is in Major - as opposed to the Emperor's Theme which is minor. But, other than that, they are the exact same theme.

Not quite true. I've played both pieces at the piano many times, and while there is a distinct similarity between the melody contours, Augie's is not--let's have some emphasis--NOT simply the Emperor's theme in a major key. If you just put that theme into a major key, it sounds ridiculously cheery, more so than Augie's. Augie's is similar to this, but it's NOT just the Emperor's theme in a major key.

[John Crichton 4]

At this point I think the more important question is: is there still anyone out there who can't hear Jabba's theme at the start of the podrace?

[Datameister 2,586]

I didn't notice that for the longest time! As good as I thought that passage was, I then realized it was even better than I'd thought! Quite possibly one of the highlights of the prequel scores for me.

[Red 75]

I noticed it right off the bat. Very cool.

[King Mark 3,975]

At this point I think the more important question is: is there still anyone out there who can't hear Jabba's theme at the start of the podrace?

took me many years to hear it.Neil sent me a clip of it isolated and slowed down and I finally heard it

[Vaderbait1 1]

WIlliams did not intentionally do it, he claims, and maybe he didn't. But regardless it is what it is.

[Henry B 51]

Yes, it is intentional. Williams has stated in an interview that "Augie's" contains [sic] "the Imperial March." Leave it to him to forget his own themes.

[Datameister 2,586]

It makes me so sad when he does that--like when he claimed that "Across the Stars" was the first Star Wars love theme, despite the lovely existence of "Han and Leia."

[Neimoidian 15]

It makes me so sad when he does that--like when he claimed that "Across the Stars" was the first Star Wars love theme, despite the lovely existence of "Han and Leia."

Let alone he used it (AtS) several times before in his score for "Nixon"

[Morlock 12]

'AtS' is not in Nixon. It is in Hook.

[Neimoidian 15]

'AtS' is not in Nixon. It is in Hook.

It's definitely in "Nixon". I am not sure about "Hook", I have never noticed it (there is a bit of "Anakin's Betrayal"-like melody in "Hook", though - in the "Finale" track).

[Sandor 918]

The answer is simply: NO.

Williams has NEVER stated he incorporated The Emperor's Theme in Augie and although the melodies are somewhat similar, if Williams intentionally put The Emperor's Theme in Augie he WOULD have said this in one of the MANY interviews he gave during TPM heydays.

He often spoke about Vader's Theme in Anakin's Theme.

Why wouldn't he refer to the use of The Emperor's Theme in the finale?

If Cinque's Theme (Amistad) would have been in TPM people would have sworn it was based on The Emperor's Theme. Is it? Of course not. There is music in Hook that could be mistaken for The Emperor's Theme. Is it? Of course not.

Williams just from time to time kinda writes the "same kind of melodies". If anyone wants to hear Schindler's List in Hedwig's Theme I guess it's possible. If anyone wants to hear Star Wars in the Superman Theme, yeah I can see that.

And if anyone wants to hear Empie and Augie: go ahead. I'm sure you'll find them virtually the same.

But in the end: Augie is not The Emperor's Theme. The notes are different (despite the similarities) and Williams has NEVER confirmed it. He's the kind of guy that WOULD have mentioned it in one of the zillions interviews back in 1999.

Roald out (going in circles).

[Morlock 12]

'AtS' is not in Nixon. It is in Hook.

It's definitely in "Nixon". I am not sure about "Hook", I have never noticed it (there is a bit of "Anakin's Betrayal"-like melody in "Hook", though - in the "Finale" track).

Where is it in Nixon, prey-tell? It is VERY simliar to the pirate theme in Hook (first 12 notes).

And JW is a very dull interviewee. If he would actually talk about everything he's doing, he'd be a fascinating one. Anakin's theme is one very notable thing that he's particularly proud of. There are many other things he does that he never talks about. He is a man who almost always talks in understatements. He calls the Battle of Yavin 'some rather exciting music'. I would not take anything for granted just because he didn't talk about it. And, either way, it doesn't really matter. It could be the Emperor's theme, and, if it is, it works brilliantly. If it was not intended (or not concious), than it is a happy accident. Either way, it's there, whether or not JW intended it or talks about it.

[Sandor 918]

If it was not intended (or not concious), than it is a happy accident. Either way, it's there, whether or not JW intended it or talks about it.

Well, Stefan's topic clearly centers around the question whether The Emperor's Theme in Augie is DELIBERATE, not whether Augie slightly resembles The Emperor's Theme.

All arguments in favor of Empie being Augie are pure speculation. I just consider the facts. Are the two note-for-note identical? No. Did Williams or Lucas ever state that The Emperor's Theme was used in Augie? No.

They merely sound the same, but no more than Cinque's Theme sounds like The Emperor's Theme.

[Morlock 12]

I was not responding to Stefan's post, but yours.

[Sandor 918]

Yeah, I know.

But all of a sudden you stated that "in the end it doesn't really matter". But my response (to which you responded) was instilled by the question Stefan raised whether Empie=Augie was deliberate. So your "it doesn't really matter" argument, albeit a correct viewpoint, doesn't add anything to answer the original question...

Is this making sense?

[Morlock 12]

It is making sense. But my 'in the end' is no more or less relevant than your 'in the end'.

[Sandor 918]

It is making sense. But my 'in the end' is no more or less relevant than your 'in the end'.

In this thread thy 'in the end' is a futile argument and infinitely less relevant. In general; I don't like the 'in the end it doesn't really matter' argument. Of course it doesn't REALLY matter. We're talking about a minor film theme. Not the solution to world hunger...

[Morlock 12]

Boy, you really do like going in circles, don't you? You said why it's is not, I said why what you said is not necasserily correct. You're making almost as little sense as Alex has been known to.

[Sandor 918]

I'm sorry Morlock... I haven't posted in months, because of the work on my own film (www.thebluehorse.nl) so I'm a little out of it. Of course when somebody reopens the Augie=Empie debate I'm morally obligated to reply...

It's nothing personal...

[Morlock 12]

Oh, far from it, it's always a pleasure to converse with someone who intelligently and reasonably disagrees with me. It's been an honor, sir knight!