135 replies to this topic

[Lurker]

So can The Phantom Menace. And do not tell me 'of course, it is a rip-off', thnk of it as paralelism

The Phantom Menace is nowhere near as good a movie as Star Wars. And The Phantom Menace is open ended. Obi-Wan is allowed to train Anakin and the Sith situation has just begun. In Star Wars the shot of Vader surviving the attack on the Death Star was obviously put in in case a sequel was ever made. With the prequels (and The Empire Strikes Back) the sequels are inevitable, so they are designed to be open-ended.

Neil

[Luke Skywalker]

Creatively, Lucas is not the same person he was 25 years ago.  And that's true for anybody.  25 years ago I couldn't even walk.  The music that John Williams wrote 25 years ago does not sound like his current stuff.  People grow and change.  To deny this is childish.

Neil

I think Mr Williams didn't grow a lot since 1977 (he changed of course)

To deny the SW Prequel trilogy as true SW is too. And lets not talk about 'believing' that SW is not called ANH <- i dont want to start this again only joking, ok?

[Luke Skywalker]

So can The Phantom Menace. And do not tell me 'of course, it is a rip-off', thnk of it as paralelism

The Phantom Menace is nowhere near as good a movie as Star Wars. And The Phantom Menace is open ended. Obi-Wan is allowed to train Anakin and the Sith situation has just begun. In Star Wars the shot of Vader surviving the attack on the Death Star was obviously put in in case a sequel was ever made. With the prequels (and The Empire Strikes Back) the sequels are inevitable, so they are designed to be open-ended.

Neil

As i said the Empire was not defeated and the Emperor was alive. If Vader survived to make a possible sequel, itns SW or ANH open ended?

I'm not saying TPM or ANH is better or not , i'm just saying the the two of them can stand on its own.

[Morn]

Well, I'm not sure that open ended means a film can't stand on it's own, there are examples of films that are open ended without sequels. I think TESB can stand alone because it's plot is not exactly a to be continued of ANH.

[Lurker]

Open ended means there are story elements left un-resolved. Star Wars is a self contained film. Everything is wrapped up at the end of it. Vader is still alive, but so what? He was not the brains behind that movie. Vader played second fiddle to Tarkin.

The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones and The Empire Strikes Back all have story issues that are not answered in the films and demand a sequel. They need the sequels. Star Wars does not. Star Wars can stand on its own. You can watch only that film and be perfectly satisifed (assuming you've watched the original edit ), because you've watched a great film and the story is over. The only other film in the series to have a closed ending is Return of the Jedi and I will not pull any cheap shots by making fun of that ending. Lets just say it's not quite as good as Star Wars' ending.

Neil

[Morn]

Open ended means there are story elements left un-resolved. Star Wars is a self contained film. Everything is wrapped up at the end of it.

Arguably TESB is quite wrapped up, they lost (which is satisfying in the sense of an anti-cliche ), the only remaining issue is Han, ANH still has Vader....
However, ROTJ does not stand alone because too much of the plot depends on TESB.

[Joey]

Once again Morn trys to beat a dead horse.

Star Wars ending is complete. The rebel forces have destroyed the deathstar. Darth Vadar Lives but there is no continuing story line.

In the Empire Strikes Back, it doesn't end, on that count Morn you are completely and totally wrong.

3 reasons.

1. Vadar reveals himself to be Lukes father. It is opened ended in that Luke questions this, and asks Ben why but gets no answer. Is he or isn't he.
2. Han is captured and given to the bounty hunter. It is opened because Lando, and Chewie go off in the Millenium Falcon to rescue him, with Luke and Leia to follow.
3. There is another according to Yoda, this comment is left unanswered as well.

Not having a true ending doesn't really hurt the film, IMHO it is the greatest sequel of all time, yes even better than Godfather II. By the way I don't think anyone has ever said it better than Neil when he said the ending to the Empire Strikes Back is Return of the Jedi. Brilliantly said.

[Morn]

Star Wars ending is complete. The rebel forces have destroyed the deathstar. Darth Vadar Lives but there is no continuing story line.

The Rebelian has yet to win, Luke has yet to become a Jedi like his father and Vader has yet to be defeated.
Those are good points about TESB, but the plot definately resolves to some extent, with the carbon freezing of Han. And true ending.... I don't see why something has to be done in the usual way.
Also, I don't quite think Return of the Jedi has a proper closed ending, because it is not clear exactly what has happened to the empire and if it is going to fall or have a civil war or just if a general will take over as new emperor. :?

[Joey]

The Rebelian has yet to win, Luke has yet to become a Jedi like his father and Vader has yet to be defeated.

Star Wars wasn't about the Rebels winning a war, just a battle, and Vader was defeated, he just survived, and he was only a 2nd fiddle to Tarkin.


and the real talk of Luke becoming a Jedi like his father comes from TESB more than anything else. Remember the ghostly vision of Obi-Wan when he tells Luke he must go to Dagoba, there you will be meet Qui-Gon, oops Yoda, the Jedi master who instructed me.

[Luke Skywalker]

The Rebelian has yet to win, Luke has yet to become a Jedi like his father and Vader has yet to be defeated.

Star Wars wasn't about the Rebels winning a war, just a battle, and Vader was defeated, he just survived, and he was only a 2nd fiddle to Tarkin.


and the real talk of Luke becoming a Jedi like his father comes from TESB more than anything else. Remember the ghostly vision of Obi-Wan when he tells Luke he must go to Dagoba, there you will be meet Qui-Gon, oops Yoda, the Jedi master who instructed me.

Lets see. You cannot end a movie witjh a tyrant emperor dancing in a galaxy (and vader too) The Emperor is mentioned on ANH.

As far as i'm concerned, ANH and TPM have the same plot holes to make them unconclused, or from a different point of view, similar endings, so they could stand on its own. In fact the Trade Federation was defeated, the Empire was not.

Joe, please stop using Qui-Gon- Obi-Wan- Yoda training as a plot hole. Didnt you see Yoda training the Younglins? Obi wan was one too. Yoda trains the kids. After that as head of the council, (and wise ass) he advises older jedi. And this is not EU its seen in the movies. Canon. Period

[Joey]

[
Joe, Didnt you see Yoda training the Younglins? Obi wan was one too. Yoda trains the kids. After that as head of the council, (and wise ass) he advises older jedi. And this is not EU its seen in the movies. Canon. Period

when I saw The Empire Strikes Back the first time I didn't know any of that, I just thougth Yoda was the jedi master who instructed Obi-Wan, and that Obi-Wan tried but failed to instruct Anakin, the way Yoda instructed him.

[tpigeon]

ok everyone, this is going nowhere! the star wars issue has been argued and argued and argue on this Board and for no reason really. everyone's got a different opinion... key word: opinon! in many of the above posts, people make as if they're opinion is fact. and the most annoying aspect about people passing their opinion off as fact is that rarely ever do they back it up. if someone loves TPM and AOTC and goes on to mention why he or she thinks so, than that's perfectly valid. everyone approaches this stuff differently. to continue arguing is utterly pointless, especailly when a lot of people act incredibly objectified and self-riteous.

Ted

[Romão]

I love TPM and AOTC and I love the Original Trilogy. Her in Portugal I actually get as much OT bashing as prequels bashing, as most people really aren't into starwars.

[Ricard]

2) Many 'purists' may not like ROTJ, but they still consider it a Star Wars movie (unlike the prequels). See the difference?

No i do not.

OK, I'll say it more clearly (if possible):

NOT LIKING A SW FILM IS ONE THING.
NOT CONSIDERING IT AS PART OF THE SW SAGA IS ANOTHER THING.

Better now?

I Have heard purist saying that ROJ is AS bad as the prequels.

A minority, of course. But once again, that wasn't the point (if you understood my above statement).

Luke, who thiks its silly try to intend the prequels are not SW films because HELL, THEY ARE. that is a fact as big as a blue whale. .

Of course, they are 'officially' part of the SW universe, like the books and all that stuff (that's an objective statement) But there are millions who don't consider them as 'true' SW movies (not our fault) - and that's a subjective opinion. Although I'm not sure if you'll ever see the difference, judging from your previous reactions...

You can or cant like it, but not say childish things like that...

If I were you I wouldn't use that adjective... :roll:

[Stefancos]

Ricard, don't mind him, he's from Madrid.

Stefancos-

[Ross]

That doesn't work, Steef. I still don't like this place. Anyway, I don't think Luke is from Madrid, I would've met him otherwise.

And Luke, I am arguing with you for the last time. It seems that George Lucas has managed to get veeeery deep into your superego so you'd defend him no matter what he does. You say that it's not true that the prequels aren't Star Wars movies. Well, let me ask you something, Luke: What is a Star Wars movie?

You would say "any movie that takes place in the Star Wars universe". But I don't think so. For many, maaaany people (not necessarily me) a Star Wars movie is a movie from their golden age of childhood where myth and science mix, where humanity prevails when together.

That's what Star Wars is about. It's not about machine-men, X-Wings, AT-ATs or Clones. It's about what they represent, about the hopeful and innocently plain message: good triumphs over evil.

I don't think you can make a Star Wars movie by just adding the Star Wars title and the crawling introduction. There's a lot more to Star Wars and let's face it, the Prequels just don't have that sense of good over evil, of peaceful, simple philosophy.

And that's a fact.

-ROSS who nonetheless prefers the Prequel Trilogy storywise.

[Stefancos]

That doesn't work, Steef. I still don't like this place. Anyway, I don't think Luke is from Madrid, I would've met him otherwise.

Stefancos- :roll:

[Lurker]

By the way I don't think anyone has ever said it better than Neil when he said the ending to the Empire Strikes Back is Return of the Jedi. Brilliantly said.

Giving credit where it's due, a buddy of mine said that to me once as we were having a discussion very similar to this one. In that case though, we were both in total agreement.

Neil

[Ricard]

I'd say the beginning to ROTJ is TESB

[Morn]

I'd say the ending of TESB is TESB.

[Luke Skywalker]

That doesn't work, Steef. I still don't like this place. Anyway, I don't think Luke is from Madrid, I would've met him otherwise.

And Luke, I am arguing with you for the last time. It seems that George Lucas has managed to get veeeery deep into your superego so you'd defend him no matter what he does. You say that it's not true that the prequels aren't Star Wars movies. Well, let me ask you something, Luke: What is a Star Wars movie?

You would say "any movie that takes place in the Star Wars universe". But I don't think so. For many, maaaany people (not necessarily me) a Star Wars movie is a movie from their golden age of childhood where myth and science mix, where humanity prevails when together.  

That's what Star Wars is about. It's not about machine-men, X-Wings, AT-ATs or Clones. It's about what they represent, about the hopeful and innocently plain message: good triumphs over evil.

I don't think you can make a Star Wars movie by just adding the Star Wars title and the crawling introduction. There's a lot more to Star Wars and let's face it, the Prequels just don't have that sense of good over evil, of peaceful, simple philosophy.

And that's a fact.

-ROSS who nonetheless prefers the Prequel Trilogy storywise.

I'm not defending Lucas Here. I do not defend him with my life regardless he does. I don't like Music edits, (another thing is calling the gods for it), i dont like the lack of saber colors (although it is EU, he added a purple saber, why not at least yellow? why does give freehand to writers if he didnt wanted so many saber colors) ), if he kills the prequels showing Leia and Darth Vader i would neither like it.

I'm Defending the prequels as the SW movies they are.

OK so in TPM, Naboo didnt defeated the Trade Federation, Neither Obi-Wan Killed Maul
And Well in AOC, it seems to the republic that it has won, but in fact the Sith Have, But heck who won in ESB? The Empire.
And in EpIII the empire will won. But becasue it is necesary.
To make good triumph over evil, the evil has to be created. that's what the prequel trilogy is about.

The prequel trilogy as the Original trilogy has its reality issue. It is about evil triumphs over good. In the new we are told about the fragility of Republics, that need to be based upon the union of people, and when it fails the evil ovetake them. In the old trilogy we are told that when tyrants rule, people join together to fight the evil and overtake them, making a free and fair goverment.

And all the things about what a star wars movie is. Well, the Ewoks movies are not SW movies, and they are based on the same universe.
Austin Powers 2 started with the crawling introduction and it DEFINATELY is not a SW movie.

A star wars movie is a movie made by George Lucas with that finality. But this comes from one who respects Lucas, so... To know what a SW movies is, we should ask George Lucas. NOBODY else can make that definition as nobody else can name your sons.

And speaking of sons, if you have 3 sons during a decade, and maybe 10 years later you have another one, your friends and family will say that the second one is not your son because your son would have to be born in the decade before and from the person you were in that decade?

And Ricard, The movies are all SW movies. And subjectively you can believe that they are not. But do not tell me (or people like me) that they are not the FACT they are: SW Movies. Better (or the best) or Worse (or the worst) movies but they still are.



Another matter:

Is ANH open-ended or not? I think i made some points that say that it is as opened as TPM, but noone answered them.
Lets recall it (and add some):
- The Emperor, Vader and the Empire are not killed-overthrown
- Saying words in the mind of Luke is all 'the powerful than you can possibly imagine' Obi-Wan becomes? What a Bluff!
- Who is the Emperor, anyway? the Guy doesn't appear in the movie...
- Who is Jabba (regarding the original edit)
- Will Han Solo pay his debt? Or will he stay in the Rebellion?




And Joe, you have seen the 5 movies, dont you? You cannot act if you didn't know by now. And we all know that Obi-Wan had a particular 'point view' of the universe.

[Lurker]

Is ANH open-ended or not?

No, it isn't.

I think i made some points that say that it is as opened as TPM, but noone answered them.
Lets recall it (and add some):
- The Emperor, Vader and the Empire are not killed-overthrown

Star Wars is about a boy rescuing a princess and destroying an evil weapon. That's it. All of the story elements are tied up at the end of the film.

- Saying words in the mind of Luke is all 'the powerful than you can possibly imagine' Obi-Wan becomes? What a Bluff!

I don't follow you there. How is it a bluff? Obi-Wan's spirit voice guided Luke during the battle. The spirits have never been explained satisfactorily, so I see no point in bringing this up.

- Who is the Emperor, anyway? the Guy doesn't appear in the movie...

Exactly. He's not an important character. He's only briefly mentioned. In Star Wars the entire Empire is represented by the Death Star. Once Luke destroys that, for the audience that's the end of the Empire. Now, things would have been different if we had seen the Emperor on Coruscant, and seen how vast the Empire really was, but since none of this is shown (and it's not important to Star Wars anyway) your argument doesn't hold up.

- Who is Jabba (regarding the original edit)

A totally un-important character. His prescence in the film adds nothing.

- Will Han Solo pay his debt? Or will he stay in the Rebellion?

Who cares? His character fully evolved in the film. There are those who argue if Han should have even been in the sequels. It's a good argument though, as his character had little to do by the end of the film series. Don't believe me? Just look at how bored Harrison Ford is in Jedi. He knew there was nowhere to go with the part.

Neil

[Luke Skywalker]

Let's see. The Emperor is not an important character, right. He is just the ruler in the galaxy . I see your point, and i agree that we would have seen Coruscant and him if the movie was done nowadays. Anyway, we WILLl see him .

Well If i were Obi-Wan, i would have not said 'i will become more powerful that you can possibly imagine' if i were only to say things to Luke. I would have said 'killing me will not change your destiny, or will not acomplish anything' or similar. I mean seeing Obi-Wan as a ghost, we see he is more powerful, and we can think he can train luke better than speaking only.

The Galactic Empire IS NOT the Death Star. We see that there are Star Destroyers - so a fleet of them is supposed. The Death Star is only a mayor battle station.

A ended movie does not bring questions like, why did Vader survive, who is the Emperor... that's why i mentioned him

TPM is about a boy , helping a queen and destroying the Trade Federation. And here the rulers were incarcelated.

Vader survived-Sidious did

And we don't know if Sidious wants to be the Emperor AND Palpatine does not look like and evil person (if he had smiled when Amidala left his room, then we could see something). The 'who was destroyed..' thing and subsequent camera on Palpatine could be simply artistic, showing us the whole funeral 'party'.

I'm not saying that ANH is opened, just making points for you to see that TPM does not opened too, as ESB (begining and endig opened), ROJ (beggining opened), AOC (beginning and endig opened)

Who cares about Han's life? Ok, then, Will Luke Become a Jedi?

Harrison Ford never liked the SW movies (even SW). But i didn't saw him bored, anyway....

[Ross]

I'm Defending the prequels as the SW movies they are.

You just don't get it, Luke. Yes, officialy the Prequels are indeed Star Wars movies. What I mean is that to most people official means nothing.

What people say when we mean that the Prequels aren't Star Wars movies is that they don't feel like Star Wars movies, and you just keep insisting that they do feel like them. And that you can't convince them of.

-ROSS, who still likes the Prequels, as a science-fiction saga on their own.

[Rogue_Leader]

The 14 track CD is a little over 76 minutes. The complete score I believe is about 125 minutes.

Was this ever confirmed?? I don't buy it. The battle music is obviously not existant and that is a long portion of the film. Not to mention there are even a few scenes that were not score in the film. I doubt there is that much music.

I still believe there is 100-110 minutes of score.

[Morn]

Some scores are only as long as 20-30 minutes!

[Lurker]

The 14 track CD is a little over 76 minutes. The complete score I believe is about 125 minutes.

Was this ever confirmed?? I don't buy it. The battle music is obviously not existant and that is a long portion of the film. Not to mention there are even a few scenes that were not score in the film. I doubt there is that much music.

I still believe there is 100-110 minutes of score.

Every score since Empire has been over 2 hours, why should Clones be any different? From everything that I've read about it, the movie was scored wall to wall (with the exception of the arena sequence, obviously) so that still means there is well over 2 hours of film to score.

Neil - who wonders if Lucas and Williams bother to spot the films anymore

[Luke Skywalker]

I'm Defending the prequels as the SW movies they are.

You just don't get it, Luke. Yes, officialy the Prequels are indeed Star Wars movies. What I mean is that to most people official means nothing.

That sounds like the Medieval era. Negating science (or reality in this case)

[Morn]

Officals are still just men you know...

[Ross]

I'm Defending the prequels as the SW movies they are.

You just don't get it, Luke. Yes, officialy the Prequels are indeed Star Wars movies. What I mean is that to most people official means nothing.

That sounds like the Medieval era. Negating science (or reality in this case)

God Luke you're not even trying to understand our point of view, are you? You're just systematically saying we're not right.

For the zillionth time: for many people Star Wars is more than a lot of galactic weird names and history. It's a simple story (all three of the movies) that has nothing to do with the Prequel Trilogy. So the Prequel Trilogy is not Star Wars to us, because there's nothing in those movies except for names and places that has anything in common with the original trilogy.

Adding the yellow main title at the beginning doesn't make them Star Wars movies.

-ROSS

[Romão]

The prequels are starwars. Ofically or not, I don't care, they are. It's all part of the same story. If you don't like it, fine, but it's still starwars. You don't have the right to consider it starwars or not because you are not the one who created it. If george lucas says it's part of the saga, it's because it is and it's the way he wants his story told. It's just the way it is.

[Luke Skywalker]

The prequels are starwars. Ofically or not, I don't care, they are. It's all part of the same story. If you don't like it, fine, but it's still starwars. You don't have the right to consider it starwars or not because you are not the one who created it. If george lucas says it's part of the saga, it's because it is and it's the way he wants his story told. It's just the way it is.

Don't try. They will not change their mind, as us.

[Romão]

I should stop trying, Luke, I know I should...

[Ricard]

You don't have the right to consider it starwars or not because you are not the one who created it.

Are you implying that the millions of people who DON'T consider Poltergeist a Tobe Hooper film (although IT IS officially a Tope Hooper film -and a Steven Spielberg production) "don't have the right" to do that? :roll:

[Romão]

I'm talking about starwars. I don't know a thing about Poltergeist.

[scissorhands]

I'm talking about starwars. I don't know a thing about Poltergeist.

And? You don't know the meaning of '"example"?

[Romão]

I never saw the film, have no knowledge of the making of it, so I have no idea how much of spielberg is there or not.

[scissorhands]

I see.

Here you have many information of Poltergeist.
http://spielbergfilm...rgeisthome.html

Read it. You will see whose film Poltergeist is.

[Romão]

Pretty interesting. I must see this movie sometime.
Looks like Poltergeist is as much a Spielberg film as The Empire Strikes back is Lucas'.

[Romão]

Maybe even a little more (since Spielberg wrote the screenplay all by himself).
Anyway, I really don't see what this has got to do with wether the prequels should be considered starwars movies or not.