108 replies to this topic

[HenryH]

Who influenced John Williams' composing voice? What composers did he "look up to?"

Also, on a more random note...do you guys think that John Williams is so good thanks to natural, borne talent, or was his classical/jazz training also pivotal in developing his aptitude for music composition?

[Eric_JWFAN]

Who influenced John Williams' composing voice?

There are probably quite a few, and it depends on which style of JW you're talking about... but if I was only allowed to pick one it would be William Walton.

[Mark Olivarez]

Well you can hear the influence of the following; Mahler, Strauss, Wagner, Stravinsky, Korngold, Alex North, Herrmann and Prokofiev.

[HenryH]

Well you can hear the influence of the following; Mahler, Strauss, Wagner, Stravinsky, Korngold, Alex North, Herrmann and Prokofiev.

I can definitely hear how he may be influenced by Alex North; the other day, I was listening to Cinemagic, and Spartacus came on...at one point, I thought I was listening to a John Williams fanfare!

[Romão]

Elgar seems to be a big influence to my ears.

[indy4]

Herrmann

When does JW sound like Herrmann? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious. My JW and BH collection are far from complete, but I haven't heard anything too similiar so far.

[Mr. Breathmask]

I'm thinking The Fury, maybe?

- Marc, not well versed in Herrmann.

[Hitch]

Don't forget Bela Bartok.....listen to Johnny's "Return of the Jedi" (Approaching the Death Star) and Bartok's "Concerto for orchestra" opening movement.

I'm thinking The Fury, maybe?

- Marc, not well versed in Herrmann.

Then how come you don't know "Row, row, row your boat"?

[Miguel Andrade]

Herrmann

When does JW sound like Herrmann? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious. My JW and BH collection are far from complete, but I haven't heard anything too similiar so far.

One of the motifs on Indy's Very First Adventure, is quiet Herrmannesque.
Do you concur, Mr. Merkel?

[David Coscina]

Williams also uses a similar string fugal section in the Cybertronics track on AI that recalls Bartok's amazing 4 part fugue section in Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste. Not a copy by any means but evocative.

[Romão]

Herrmann

When does JW sound like Herrmann? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious. My JW and BH collection are far from complete, but I haven't heard anything too similiar so far.

One of the motifs on Indy's Very First Adventure, is quiet Herrmannesque.
Do you concur, Mr. Merkel?

it's like a positive version of an Herrmann cue

I also hear a lot of Bartok in tracks like the Well of Souls.

[MSM]

Why do we have a new thread on this every time a new member joins?

[Hitch]

Because it is custom to be considerate to new members. That's rich coming from me I know.

[tpigeon]

Brian Tyler.

[Henry Buck]

Also, on a more random note...do you guys think that John Williams is so good thanks to natural, borne talent, or was his classical/jazz training also pivotal in developing his aptitude for music composition?

I'm going to attempt this one: yes, of course his training was pivotal. Nobody is borne an orchestrator.

[Hlao-roo]

Why do we have a new thread on this every time a new member joins?

Ideally, new members would use the Search Form, but it's not exceptionally user-friendly.

[indy4]

Herrmann

When does JW sound like Herrmann? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious. My JW and BH collection are far from complete, but I haven't heard anything too similiar so far.

One of the motifs on Indy's Very First Adventure, is quiet Herrmannesque.
Do you concur, Mr. Merkel?

it's like a positive version of an Herrmann cue

Ah, I see. Is it the one that starts at 3:48?

[Mark Olivarez]

Ahh Thor has finally revealed himself as a member here.

[Hlao-roo]

Brian Tyler.

What's funny is that the new Indiana Jones teaser almost plays as an inside joke in reference to the October 14, 2007 FSM podcast:

"If you take a theme like 'The Raiders March,' you can't take that and put that in some other movie, because people know it -- it's so strongly identified with Indiana Jones. But the theme from Deep Blue Sea [and Children of Dune], no matter how many times you use it in how many movies, nobody quite remembers what it's from, because it's so malleable."

[Marian Schedenig]

Sometimes there are noticeable Shostakovich influences. Desert Chase has a motif that sounds very much like something out of the duel music from Hamlet, and the darker percussion-heavy writing from AOTC reminds me of the brilliant 11th symphony.

[tpigeon]

Brian Tyler.

What's funny is that the new Indiana Jones teaser almost plays as an inside joke in reference to the October 14, 2007 FSM podcast:

"If you take a theme like 'The Raiders March,' you can't take that and put that in some other movie, because people know it -- it's so strongly identified with Indiana Jones. But the theme from Deep Blue Sea [and Children of Dune], no matter how many times you use it in how many movies, nobody quite remembers what it's from, because it's so malleable."

I remember that! That's quite ironic, actually. Who'd have thought that this malleable theme, so commonly used in movies and trailers would be incorporated into an Indiana Jones trailer.

Ted

[jerrygollay]

So : Alan Rawsthorne, William Walton, Ralph Vaughan Williams, Gustav Holst, Serge Prokofiev , Igor Stravinsky, Dmitri Shostakovitch, Bela bartok, Zoltan Kodaly, Claude Debussy, Maurice Ravel, Gustav Mahler, Richard Strauss,Richard Wagner, Gyorgy Ligeti, John Adams, Samel Barber, William Schuman, Walter Piston, Howard Hanson, George Templeton Strong...

[Blumenkohl]

Jerry Goldsmith.

The man played piano for Goldsmith....he had to be inspired somewhere in there. I'd be.

[Maglorfin]

He also played piano for Henry Mancini.

[Blumenkohl]

But Jerry Goldsmith made John Williams!

[SturgisPodmore]

Wasn't Williams mentored by Hermann to a certian extent?

~Sturgis

[Red Rabbit]

From what I understand, Williams is far more of a classical fan than a film score fan. Maybe that's why he doesn't sound like anyone else in his field (except imitators).

[Marian Schedenig]

Maybe that's why he doesn't sound like anyone else in his field (except imitators).

Korngold?

[Red Rabbit]

Well, those still working.

[Marian Schedenig]

Well yes. I basically agree, but much of it probably comes from the fact that Williams is among the last composers from his generation. He does seem to have found a very distinct voice of his own (far more so than that in most of his very good and easily identifiable, but nevertheless "traditional"-sounding scores from the 70s and 80s).

[MSM]

1) Sergei Prokofiev
2) Erich Wolfgang Korngold
3) Igor Stravinsky
4) Leonard Bernstein
5) Gustav Holst

To a lesser extend:

6) Dmitri Shostakovitch
7) William Walton
8) Gustav Mahler
9) Richard Wagner
10) Richard Strauss
11) Claude Debussy
12)Pjotr Ilyich Tschaikovsky
13)Aram Khatchatrian
14)Maurice Ravel
15)Darius Milhaud

[Eric_JWFAN]

1) Sergei Prokofiev
2) Erich Wolfgang Korngold
3) Igor Stravinsky
4) Leonard Bernstein
5) Gustav Holst

To a lesser extend:

6) Dmitri Shostakovitch
7) William Walton
8) Gustav Mahler
9) Richard Wagner
10) Richard Strauss
11) Claude Debussy
12)Pjotr Ilyich Tschaikovsky
13)Aram Khatchatrian
14)Maurice Ravel
15)Darius Milhaud

Move William Walton up to the top and put Ravel in the top 5, and I think you have a good list.

[Henry Buck]

The list must include Hermann.

[MSM]

The list must include Hermann.

JW stated his admiration for Herrmann. Judging from his writing though I don't see many apparant influences (like is the case with Elgar except for Throne Room.)

[Romão]

I hear Elgar's influence in stuff like Angela's Ashes and Seven Years in Tibet, I really do.

[Eric_JWFAN]

The list must include Hermann.

JW stated his admiration for Herrmann. Judging from his writing though I don't see many apparant influences (like is the case with Elgar except for Throne Room.)

I agree, and I think the OP has a 2-part question. 1. Who influenced his compositional voice, and 2. Who did he look up to.

He probably looked up to Hermann, but I see very little direct influence on his music and not nearly as much as some other composers.

[Marcus]

In his early days, Claude Thornhill and a whole host of prominent jazz and light music arrangers and composers, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, and just about everything that's in some way neoclassical and essentially tonal.

Later these influences were purified through a more "Anglophile" filter; Walton (prominently!), Vaughan Williams, Finzi and, perhaps most importantly, not stylistically, but structurally and aesthetically; Elgar.

Certainly the textural palette of the Polish avantgarde has been a considerable influence, and I'm guessing this must have happened actually quite early, i.e. basically when composers such as Lutoslawski and Pendercki rose to prominence. A similar surprisingly early influence is Takemitsu.

Strauss/Korngold/Mahler/Wagner-type romanticism is actually less of a substantial influence. It might have been crucial to the musical universe of Star Wars, but it has less to do with Williams' style ("Star Wars" is actually one of the least representative late 70s Williams scores!!! His own signature is more clearly articulated in scores that might seem superficially more odd, stylistically speaking, such as Missouri Breaks ans Images). First and foremost, though, Jane Eyre is the early incarnation of Williams' mature style. Not in trems of idiom, but in terms of deeper musical technique (phrase structure, tonal design, etc. Also, it has one of the earliest fully formed "Williams scherzo"s.)

Surely Henry Mancini, and Broadway and American light music in general has been influential to some aspects of his melodic writing, although usually cross-fertilized witha more neoclassical tendency.

I think some of the last composers to have influenced Williams to some extent, might have been Corigliano and Adams.

I think other film composers such as North, Steiner, Rosza, Korngold, Waxman and Herrmann could have been more superficial influences. Herrmann, I think, might have been more influential to Williams many years after he passed away. While Hermann was alive (and Williams and Herrmann were friends), I can imagine that Williams sort of took Herrmann for granted, in a way.


And above all, Haydn.

[jerrygollay]

Also, it has one of the earliest fully formed "Williams scherzo"s.

Alan Rawsthorne Symphony No 2 "country dance" ...Woaw !!!! I forgot Jean Sibelius his Smphony No 7 sounds with nods of Kryptonite !!!

[MSM]

In his early days, Claude Thornhill and a whole host of prominent jazz and light music arrangers and composers

You're right here, of course, I forgot to mention those.

Strauss/Korngold/Mahler/Wagner-type romanticism is actually less of a substantial influence.

I think other film composers such as North, Steiner, Rosza, Korngold, Waxman and Herrmann could have been more superficial influences.

And above all, Haydn.

JW stated his admiration for Haydn indeed, and the influence goes as far as to form, but stylistically the two composers cannot be more different of course.

As to Korngold, I must disagree. If there is any composer who stylistically resembles Williams, it is Korngold. This is paradoxically not very apparant in Korngold's film scores, however very much in his formal music. Who knows the violin concerto, knows what I mean: the colors and richness of orchestration and melody are almost as if Williams wrote them. And who ever has heard the Overture to Korngold's Baby Serenade, realizes this piece of music is actually the first Williams scherzo

[Marcus]

I've been very much an admirer of Korngold's concert music, and know all of it very well, but I really feel that Williams and Korngold are quite different. Korngold's orchestrational style has much of the same "brightness", but they're executed very differently. Korngold is a lot like Strauss, just much lighter, whereas Williams' orchestrational technique is actually not so very "romantic", although its effect can be.

Harmonically, the two are also actually quite different, although Korngold also likes to embellish his main structures with auxiliary triads, and they both share an enthusiasm for parallell leading tones/appogiaturas, especially anything revolving around #4,b6 and b2.

But Williams' harmonic style is generally much less triadically conceived.


But I can understand that the last movement, or the main theme of the first movement, of Korngold's violin concerto, seem williamsesque. But is you look at Korngold's melodic structures, they are generally much looser, much more "amorpheus", whereas Williams tends to be very tight, very controlled and classical.


But this is very silly, nit-pickety petit-maitre'esqe of me! There is of course a great connection between the two, but this is mostly felt in certain parts of Williams' film output, and in his concert music not so much.