460 replies to this topic

[indy4]

Muppet Treasure Island does indeed have a great theme. If you like Hook, you will like this score. To indy4, this is another swashbuckler you might want to add to your To Buy list.

Some day perhaps...but as long as this is the price, it'll take awhile.

http://www.amazon.co...0...1296&sr=8-1

[Koray Savas]

Ah yes, that one was a little pricey. Perhaps I could send you the first track?

[Delorean90]

In thinking back, The Prince of Egypt has some pretty fantastic material. It may well be Zimmer's most purely orchestral score, although it certainly has its synthetic augmentations from time to time. Now I seem to remember that the songs were written by someone else. What was the situation on that? Did the other guy write the songs and Zimmer arranged them, or did the two collaborate, or is it somewhere between the two?

[Koray Savas]

I believe Stephen Schwartz wrote the lyrics, but Zimmer provided the music for them.

[indy4]

Ah yes, that one was a little pricey. Perhaps I could send you the first track?

Thanks, but my policy remains.

[Koray Savas]

It's only a minute long! It's like listening to 2 track samples on iTunes. You can delete it afterwards if you like, I just want you to hear it.

[indy4]

If it's only a minute, I must not be missing much.

[Koray Savas]

Fine, be that way!

But you're missing out on some amazing 67 seconds of score. This theme is basically the precursor that led to his Pirates scores. It also sounds very much like Hook. A great swashbuckler, and I know you love those.

[indy4]

Yeah, I want it badly. But I guess it'll have to wait.

[Trent Hoyt]

indy, I like your policy. I'm pretty much the same way too.

[Koray Savas]

You don't have to wait, you just want to.

It's a good policy, trentman, but I don't see the harm in him listening to a 67 second cue and then deleting it.

[Bryant Burnette]

Bottom line: It's still a Batman movie, and it really deserves a better developed, more complementary score than it got. Get some orchestration in there, let the electronics accent the orchestra instead of drive it, enhance the melody...lighten up when appropriate--and for crying out loud, let it soar, not pound.

"It's still a Batman movie..."

What do you mean by that, exactly? That you want a more traditionally "superheroic" score is how I take it . . . but why does every superhero movie have to be the same thing? Can't one, every now and then, do something different? Sometimes pounding is preferrable to soaring, and in my opinion, this was one of those occasions.

I don't have any of the problems you seem to have with the score. I think it digs deep into the psyche of the character it is supporting; and I care about how it plays on-screen a lot more than I care about how it plays in my car while I'm driving around.

[Drax]

It was a boring score.

[Olivier]

Muppet Treasure Island, is a terrific score indeed!
It's a pity it's one of those hard to get CDs; I was lucky to find it some years ago, when it was alreayd getting scarce.

In thinking back, The Prince of Egypt has some pretty fantastic material. [...] Now I seem to remember that the songs were written by someone else. What was the situation on that? Did the other guy write the songs and Zimmer arranged them, or did the two collaborate, or is it somewhere between the two?

I believe Stephen Schwartz wrote the lyrics, but Zimmer provided the music for them.

The credits read
"Songs by Stephen Schwartz" (not just "Lyrics")
and "Score by Hans Zimmer"

As I supposed, Zimmer then orchestrated the songs (FSM Vol 3 # 10, p 21).

In thinking back, The Prince of Egypt has some pretty fantastic material. It may well be Zimmer's most purely orchestral score, although it certainly has its synthetic augmentations from time to time.

I would say such scores as Spanglish, The House of Spirits, As Good As It Gets, ..., are mostly (if not completely) acoustic as well.

[Morlock]

House of Spirits acoustic?

[Richard Penna]

I enjoy a lot of Zimmer's material as a guilty pleasure, and a lot of his smaller scores are very good, particularly Thin Red Line, which I think Zimmer put a lot of thought into, especially when you consider he was working with Terrence "replace everything with classical music" Malick.

Gladiator though, is one of the scores that got me into film music to start with, and I hate the dialogue in the second CD as well. It's a real shame that they felt the need to commercialize the CD by putting remixes and stuff already on the first album, rather than actually putting some new music on. I believe there are only two tracks on it which contain unreleased cues completely untouched, although that nice 'arabic' desert theme just before they arrive at Zucchabar is on the DVD, played over the deleted footage montage.

And that 2 disc anniversary edition was a pointless waste of space, not to mention false advertising. The film won an oscar, not the music, and 'all the music' should mean literally that. I was getting really geared up for that.

[Mr. Breathmask]

Was that a Sony release?

[Drax]

Decca.

[Mr. Breathmask]

Ah, yes.

The people who brought us More Music from Braveheart.

Fools.

[Luke Skywalker]

And back to titanic IIRC

I did not RC it. It is sony ayway...

[Mr. Breathmask]

That might have been Sony.

The original Titanic album was also Sony (the same way the original Braveheart and Gladiator were Decca's).

[Delorean90]

Bottom line: It's still a Batman movie, and it really deserves a better developed, more complementary score than it got. Get some orchestration in there, let the electronics accent the orchestra instead of drive it, enhance the melody...lighten up when appropriate--and for crying out loud, let it soar, not pound.

"It's still a Batman movie..."

What do you mean by that, exactly? That you want a more traditionally "superheroic" score is how I take it . . . but why does every superhero movie have to be the same thing? Can't one, every now and then, do something different? Sometimes pounding is preferrable to soaring, and in my opinion, this was one of those occasions.

I don't have any of the problems you seem to have with the score. I think it digs deep into the psyche of the character it is supporting; and I care about how it plays on-screen a lot more than I care about how it plays in my car while I'm driving around.

What I mean is that for the most part the score simply rejects the adventurous/energetic elements of the film, and there's a lack of enthusiasm in a lot of it. It approaches it at times (the "I'm Batman" moment, I thought was done pretty doggone well, actually getting some of that in there--it's one particular case, also, where that string rhythm really works for me), but not often. When you get to the action material, it sets a mood more than it enhances or complements either the actions/visuals or the emotions of the scene. It goes more for the boom boom than it does to capture all of the elements of the action: the excitement, the suspense, the fright, and the gravity. It seems all focused on the gravity of the action, ignoring the rest of it. Sure, it's got energy, but in accompanying the visuals, it actually has an odd clunkiness to it.

The movie itself does not always take itself too seriously. It recognizes the serious elements more than previous incarnations, but there is humor, there is adventure, and on the whole it is properly balanced, top notch film. Why should the score not match in its balance and quality? There is little in the way of orchestrational depth; a lot of it is very chord-driven, not doing much of anything with the chords. I'm not sure where you're getting this stuff about it digging "deep into the psyche of the character it is supporting." If you are referring to the more emotional, string and piano based sections (which sound more like Howard, and which I like, even if they could have been improved), then I can kind of see where it might approach it. But it really doesn't go much of anywhere in the music. I don't understand how ambience is supposed to dig deep into anything. It mostly just sets a mood, one that a lot of times really takes itself far too seriously. Take the preparation scenes after he finds the cave, for instance, or the music where Bruce meets Lucius and checks out some of the gear. Instead of enjoying the anticipation and building of the character (which comes through in the story), I feel like I'm playing the N64 Goldeneye game. What would be some prime example scenes of where you felt the music really got into the character and supported him and/or the story?

The question "Why does every superhero movie have to be the same thing?" to me smacks of "John Williams is always the same--just listen to Indiana Jones, or Star Wars, or Superman--it's all the same!" There are simply certain approaches and methods that work for certain things, and I for one enjoy hearing the different music that comes from certain approaches. It doesn't make it all the same music. In the score--and in Zimmer's comments--I get a sense of doing different things for the sake of being different, and going too far with it. Now, on the other hand, I'm not saying that it should necessarily have as much of the fantastic quality of a lot of superhero scores, but I think a balance (in tone and compositional quality) between B89 and Unbreakable would've made for a fantastic score, worthy of the story, and still appropriate for this take.

As for how it plays on-screen versus how it plays in the car: Yes, it is true, the primary goal is to support the film. However, by laying there for most of the time, it does not accomplish this: it simply sets a tone. And on top of that, the best scores will enhance the film as well as just flat out be good music. Begins, for me, is kind of halfway on both ends. If I'm in the mood for a moody, largely ambient, Zimmer score with influences of both the Bruckheimer sound and JNH, then it can be a decent listen. There are things that I like about it. But a truly fulfilling listen? No. Then in the film, it does achieve its own kind of feel and sound in a way, but I find it unsatisfactory in that regard. The "superheroic" scores are great because they do accomplish both goals. Unbreakable accomplishes both goals, even though it doesn't sound as fantastical.

[Drax]

Back to Titanic was excellent with its presentation of previously unreleased score, with the exception with dialogue inserts scattered about.

[Neimoidian]

There is some news about TDK score. It seems he's working with JNH again. However the concept of two-note Joker motif drives me mad.

[Delorean90]

There's some talk of that here.

[Hitch]

I can't believe I'm typing this but I have to give Zimmer his dues on this one. The only HZ score I will listen to while driving at 19 mph.

[Morlock]

Good tunes. I wish it were acoustic.

[Luke Skywalker]

Back to Titanic was excellent with its presentation of previously unreleased score, with the exception with dialogue inserts scattered about.

Regardless that is had some source music not by Horner, the Braveheart and gladiator 2nd CDs have also unreleased socre, but have the damned dialoge too.

I mean the three CDs are a mess.

[Matt C]

I like some of Zimmer's scores, but his influence has greatly saturated the majority of action film scoring for the past few years. Films like Transformers and Vantage Point are scored by Zimmer's former RC crew (Steve Jablonsky and Atli Orvarsson) and a lot of the action is punctuated by the brass, strings and synth chord extensions of Zimmer's own scores. It's tiresome, really.

I appreciate it when Zimmer tries something different -- his third POTC score was truly impressive in terms of varied orchestration (loved the introduction of woodwinds and the Asian instrumentation) and his best work is exemplified in small, intimate films rather than big, loud action films. I enjoyed Batman Begins but it was mainly an extension of Zimmer's previous work for POTC and Crimson Tide. Maybe Zimmer and Howard should try a more traditional approach for The Dark Knight score and focus more on the orchestra side of things.

[Drax]

There is some news about TDK score. It seems he's working with JNH again. However the concept of two-note Joker motif drives me mad.

Two notes for the Joker is like trying to give a stylish haircut to someone with already short hair.

[Delorean90]

As I stated in the TDK thread, I suspect this means he's found a good interval to start with, but he's working hard to figure out where to go with the theme. See the thread for further comments.

I appreciate it when Zimmer tries something different -- his third POTC score was truly impressive in terms of varied orchestration (loved the introduction of woodwinds and the Asian instrumentation) and his best work is exemplified in small, intimate films rather than big, loud action films. I enjoyed Batman Begins but it was mainly an extension of Zimmer's previous work for POTC and Crimson Tide. Maybe Zimmer and Howard should try a more traditional approach for The Dark Knight score and focus more on the orchestra side of things.

Indeed. I think a more orchestral focus would be a huge step in the right direction.

[Koray Savas]

I thought their score fit the film flawlessly. The music carried a lot of weight. It was heavy and dark, and you could feel that through the music, which is a difficult thing to accomplish. Zimmer's theme was well used, and there will be developments on it in The Dark Knight. When Bruce tells Rachel "It's not what I say, but what I do that defines me" and then jumps off the roof, and then the theme kicks in...perfect.

[Delorean90]

That is one of the better moments in the score. Nonetheless, I would say that the execution of the concept could have been better. Got any specific comments on my essay above?

[Trent Hoyt]

I really enjoyed his score for The Simpsons Movie, but then I saw the credits for it.


Co-Composed and Produced by:
Hans Zimmer

Co-Composed by:
Ryeland Allison
Lorne Balfe
Henry Jackman
James Dooley
Michael Levine
Atli Orvarsson

Orchestrated by:
Bruce Fowler
Steve Bartek
Elizabeth Finch
Walt Fowler
Ken Kugler
Dave Metzger
Yvette Moriarty
Geoff Stradling


Thats a lot of names. Can anyone explain to me how something like that works?

[Koray Savas]

Orchestrators do not write music. I'm pretty sure it said Additional Composers, and not Co-Composers. And it works by Hans Zimmer writing the music, and handing it down to his trainees to work with. They edit, mix, add ambience, remixes, etc.

[indy4]

On the Special Edition it say they're part of "The Simpsons Music Posse."

This film probably has the absolute worst track titles (in terms of being accurate with the film). That and The Curse of the Black Pearl.

[Delorean90]

Of course, it's track titles like "Thank You, Boob Lady" that really make you want to rush to show your parents this great new CD you got.

[Drax]

Orchestrators do not write music. I'm pretty sure it said Additional Composers, and not Co-Composers. And it works by Hans Zimmer writing the music, and handing it down to his trainees to work with. They edit, mix, add ambience, remixes, etc.

Are you from his PR department?

[indy4]

Of course, it's track titles like "Thank You, Boob Lady" that really make you want to rush to show your parents this great new CD you got.

I understand they may want the titles to sound more....interesting to get more buys.

But things like just switching track titles randomly. For instance, "Bart's Doodle" is the music played at "Release the Hounds." At "Release the Hounds," there isn't ANY music. Some of these changes just don't make sense.

[Bryant Burnette]

Delorean90, I'm going to respond to some of your comments individually here:

"When you get to the action material, it sets a mood more than it enhances or complements either the actions/visuals or the emotions of the scene. It goes more for the boom boom than it does to capture all of the elements of the action: the excitement, the suspense, the fright, and the gravity. It seems all focused on the gravity of the action, ignoring the rest of it. Sure, it's got energy, but in accompanying the visuals, it actually has an odd clunkiness to it."

You argument seems to assume that Batman Begins is functioning on the level of an action movie. That's not how I see the movie at all. Therefore, to assess the music on the level of how well it functions as action music is, in my opinion, entirely off-base. The reason it seems to be "all focused on the gravity of the action" is because the movie is entirely focused on the gravity of the action. In this movie, the specific function of the score is to inform the audience of that focus; the very fact that it isn't traditional action-movie music serves to tip people off that this is a different type of movie you might have expected when you sat down with your popcorn and your Coke. One might make the argument that if the movie is doing its job correctly, then the music needn't be relied upon as a beacon for the audience; however, the music also functions to immerse us in a specific mood. More on that later.

"The movie itself does not always take itself too seriously. It recognizes the serious elements more than previous incarnations, but there is humor, there is adventure, and on the whole it is properly balanced, top notch film."

Well, for one thing, the fact that there is humor in the movie does not mean the movie isn't taking itself seriously. There's humor in a lot of very serious movies. As I recall, in this movie, those moments tend to be small and brief; they function as release valves, lest the tension becoming overbearing. How should the music reflect that? I don't think it should. My contention is that the music is always reflecting Bruce; and since Bruce is rarely the hinge upon which these humorous moments swing, it would be inappropriate for the music to reflect these scenes. (Your memory for specifics seems better than mine, though, so you might be able to provide some instances of me being wrong about that.)

"There is little in the way of orchestrational depth; a lot of it is very chord-driven, not doing much of anything with the chords. I'm not sure where you're getting this stuff about it digging "deep into the psyche of the character it is supporting." If you are referring to the more emotional, string and piano based sections (which sound more like Howard, and which I like, even if they could have been improved), then I can kind of see where it might approach it."

Well, I don't know crap about music as far as terminology, composition, or theory goes, but I certainly was not referring to the string and piano sections. The driving, propulsive sections were what I was referring to. If you can't see how this music reflects the Bruce Wayne of this movie, I'm not sure what I can do for you. But I'll try. The fact that it seems to sit there, not going anywhere, is reflective of Bruce himself. This is a man who is obsessed with his parents' death. His obsession sits there, not going anywhere; intensifying, if anything. It occasionally swells into something else for a time, representing Bruce's vague romantic inclinations, or depressive nostalgia for warm family memories (many of them centered around Alfred), or muted desire to achieve some sort of greater heroic purpose. This music is a mirror for the character as he is presented in this movie; that varies somewhat from scene to scene, but is mostly single-minded. As I said in an earlier post, I am guessing that the music will develop as the character develops through The Dark Knight and any subsequent sequels that involve all the same creative people.

"But it really doesn't go much of anywhere in the music. I don't understand how ambience is supposed to dig deep into anything. It mostly just sets a mood, one that a lot of times really takes itself far too seriously."

Well, I've always seen abient music as being something designed to enhance a mood, rather than create one. The movie creates the mood; the music backs it up, and occasionally serves to point audience members in the right direction. You're either in the mood the movie creates or you aren't; and if you aren't, then there's a decent chance that you're in some other mood, one based on your idea of what you thought the movie was going to be. Expectation versus reality, in other words (though I admit that any art is open to interpretation, and that there is no "reality" as to what it does or doesn't mean). I distinctly recall that when I saw the movie for the first time, and the music began to swell as Batman responded to Gordon's "I never thanked you" by replying "You'll never have to," I felt extremely moved. Not to tears, but just stirred in some sort of immediate way; urged to some sort of action, though the only action for me to take was to get up and leave. I had the same response when I rewatched the movie on DVD. If it doesn't work that way on some people, that doesn't invalidate it for the people it does work upon. One final point, and I don't mean it rudely: is the mood you refer to above taking itself too seriously, or are you not taking it seriously enough? After all, sometimes it's the audience that's at fault, not the art.

"Take the preparation scenes after he finds the cave, for instance"

I will. You're assuming that these scenes are intended to show the character building. I don't think that's the point at all. I think the point is to show that Bruce has found a way to indulge his obsession, which is why the music seems to not be developing. It's because in these scenes, Bruce himself isn't developing; he's sinking deeper into his obsessions. You may notice that most of the swells toward more conventional hero music accompany Bruce doing something to help other people, rather than doing something to support his obsessions. I think if you try and read the music's functionality based on what it is doing rather than on what it isn't doing, you might find that it's working.

"or the music where Bruce meets Lucius and checks out some of the gear."

I don't remember there being any music during that scene. Do you mean the scene where he gets the Tumbler, or is there another one?

"Instead of enjoying the anticipation and building of the character (which comes through in the story), I feel like I'm playing the N64 Goldeneye game."

Never played it, don't know what you mean. Love me some Bond, though.

"What would be some prime example scenes of where you felt the music really got into the character and supported him and/or the story? "

All of them.

"The question "Why does every superhero movie have to be the same thing?" to me smacks of "John Williams is always the same--just listen to Indiana Jones, or Star Wars, or Superman--it's all the same!"

Hmmm . . . those ARE all the same thing, in a way: heroic musical themes that externalize the heroic qualities of the characters they represent. Elfman's Batman theme is in the same vein. It sounded to me like you were criticizing Batman Begins for not having that kind of musical approach, and in my opinion it would be disastrous for the movie to have that kind of music; Bruce in Batman Begins has not earned that kind of music. If that was not what you were saying, my apologies for a poor reading.

"There are simply certain approaches and methods that work for certain things, and I for one enjoy hearing the different music that comes from certain approaches. It doesn't make it all the same music."

I don't know what any of that means.

"In the score--and in Zimmer's comments--I get a sense of doing different things for the sake of being different, and going too far with it."

It's not for the sake of being different; it's different because the movie itself is different, taking a richer approach to the idea of a disturbed hero than any comic-book movie to date. (The Burton Batman movies have darkness in them, too, but in the first one it's mostly superficial, and in the second one, it seems to mostly be about tortured sexuality, and the music serves to distract people from that, lest it become too overbearing. This makes sense for a movie that is designed to be a subliminal message for the masses.) Batman Begins is about crippling fear resultant to violent tragedy, and the way in which one responds to it; we're being asked to directly confront those themes right alongside Bruce, and the music serves to immerse us in the interior struggle he is going through. I found -- find -- it to be complex, moving, and extremely satisfying. The idea that it "goes too far" is entirely subjective. It went just the right distance for me.