3525 replies to this topic

[Delorean90]

I still haven't seen the last 10-20 minutes of Returns--not for lack of desire, but things have just been too crazy; I haven't gotten to watch much of anything recently. But I enjoyed what I saw. It wasn't terrible, but I can see room for improvement. What happened to Singer, anyway? I mean, it's been a couple of years, he was still on, and all of a sudden he's out?

Aside from the music, I'd say my biggest concern is that we'll get yet another film of Lex masterminding something and Superman just saving people and not getting to battle something on his level. I was actually looking forward to Singer's next entry largely for that reason; the comments he made about wanting to have one of the supervillains he can actually fight was getting me excited. As it is, here's hoping that we don't just get Lex this time around--I wouldn't think it would be too hard to work Brainiac in, and he's only been on the drawing board since, what, Superman III?

As far as the music goes, I for one wouldn't mind them transferring Williams's theme(s). The March is so deeply identified with the character that it really works. However, I understand if they want to move on thematically. I would not endorse any approach other than rich, robust orchestral scoring. As much as I am peeved with the execution, the general ideas and thematic roots of the new Batman films isn't too bad, but there's no way that...ahem...stuff would be right for Superman. Shirley Walker did a pretty good job with the theme for the animated series. I'd love to see one of the real A-class (not necessarily A-list) composer get the scoring job. Bruce Broughton for Superman, anyone?

[crocodile]

It's not AOTC terrible. It's just sad, long and boring film with no plot. The effects are just fine though.

Karol -who liked it more upon its release date.

[Drax]

They should just make a Smallville movie instead.

[MSM]

Without John Williams, there is no Superman, as far as I'm concerned.

Then let Williams compose another Superman theme

[Stefancos]

And then hear people hwere complain that it sucks compared to the old one.

[GoldsmithFanatic2000+]

Superman needs to be rebooted, John Williams' theme/s with it. Superman Returns was poor, and so was Ottman's score.

It just stank of pointlessness. Here you can watch a film trying to be Superman 78' right down to Brandon Routh trying so desperately hard to be Christopher Reeve, it's no secret that he happens to resemble him. That's where it stops however. Routh is as wooden as an oak tree in Returns.

Why watch poor imitation, when you can watch the glorious real thing?

He just reminded me of Christopher Lloyd in Back to the Future Part II. In the opening of the film his performance is poor, where as he is fine for the rest of its duration, as he was in the first film (thankfully, more than can be said for Routh). Why? Because he is lousy at impersonating himself. His performance at the end of the original was natural. The opening of the sequel, which is a recap of the original, only it all had to be re-shot to incorporate Elisabeth Shue into the picture, just screams forced and second rate. Shue wasn't much better either, Claudia Wells portrayed Jennifer quite differently. Even if she wasn't on screen all that much, she was the superior actress in the role. Only Michael J. Fox manages to recreate his performance with ease, almost the same as it was in the original version of the sequence.

Anyway, as long as Zimmer, and anyone else associated with Remote Control stay well away from scoring this upcoming Superman film, I'll at least have something less to worry about.

[Mark Olivarez]

They should just make a Smallville movie instead.

I always though they should have just brought the Smallville cast to the big screen for the film.

[Luke Skywalker]

They should just make a Smallville movie instead.

I always though they should have just brought the Smallville cast to the big screen for the film.

it would not be a bag idea to make the transformation from clark-hero to the real superman in a movie.

It has no relation with reeve's superman... and all the cast is different and do not resemble the reeve movies.

But still Williams music can be used

[Henry Buck]

What, why does it have to follow in the footsteps of Donner's film? Superman Returns did, and it sucked. We need something new.

[Luke Skywalker]

What, why does it have to follow in the footsteps of Donner's film? Superman Returns did, and it sucked. We need something new.

Im just saying that a reboot with smallville 'universe' could work as it has not direct relation with the revees universe.

Still the music could be used (they have done it already in the series...)

[Richard Penna]

I've stopped caring about superheroes.

I enjoyed SR, but every time I watch part of it I notice more flaws, and at the end of the day, what was the point of it all?

[Quint]

They should just make a Smallville movie instead.

I always though they should have just brought the Smallville cast to the big screen for the film.

Lord, if they ever used that mail order catalogue model as Superman in any filmic iteration of my favourite superhero, I'd boycott. Smallville is nothing more than a spin on Dawson's Creek, but with the added 'bonus' of angst ridden super powers ie; cheesy garbage.

[Red Rabbit]

Maybe they could use Shirley Walker's Superman theme.

[Quint]

No. And that wasn't a bad theme either.

Don't worry, I know you weren't being serious.

[Red Rabbit]

Actually I was. But believe me, I'm not worrying.

[pixie_twinkle]

They tried it. It didn't do as well as they hoped. It was a reboot of an older idea anyway. Here's a good idea. Why don't the big studios try to come up with a completely new film instead. Do something original. If we don't get a Hulk, Superman, or Batman film every few years I'm sure the world will go on turning. I really believe the blockbuster industry needs some new blood, not yet another film based on familiar characters.

[indy4]

I would be all for that.

I think one of the reasons studios do this is because franchises and sequels usually earn big bucks. During 2003 - 2008, the highest grossing film of the year was a sequel.

[Jamesyboy]

Man, after catching up on this thread, I feel like I'm a loner here. I really enjoyed Superman Returns. Routh did a wonderful job, the film itself had a great spirit, and I really liked Ottman's score. He did a wonderful job IMO. I was looking forward to Man of Steel. Oh well...now the studios will make Superman something he's not. Damn copycaters, can't come up with any of their own ideas, have to "borrow" somebody elses...


Jamesyboy

[Henry Buck]

Uh, kind of like Superman Returns borrowed everything from Donner's Superman? Returns was just a messy homage to Donner's film with some pretentious, soapy drama thrown in.

[Hitch]

I think they should freeze Superman in a slab of green kryptonite and bury the geezer for good.

[Bryant Burnette]

I think they should freeze Superman in a slab of green kryptonite and bury the geezer for good.

If Smallville can't kill him, then probably nothing can.

What a waste of a show. I stuck with it for six seasons and some change until I finally wised up and realized that no, it wasn't ever going to turn into a good series. There were about four good episodes per season, and that was enough for a while, but life's just too short to watch a show that fails so utterly. Good cast, though; Welling and Rosenbaum in particular deserved better writing.

This season, apparently, they've got Doomsday . . . and he's a bartender. What a pile of puke.

As for the movie franchise, I think they'd be wise to do a complete reboot, but maybe without feeling the need to retell the origin story for the umpteenth time. I mean, how many potential ticket-buyers can there possibly be who don't know that story?

Whatever they do, I'll be there to see it.

[Quint]

Man, after catching up on this thread, I feel like I'm a loner here. I really enjoyed Superman Returns. Routh did a wonderful job, the film itself had a great spirit, and I really liked Ottman's score. He did a wonderful job IMO. I was looking forward to Man of Steel. Oh well...now the studios will make Superman something he's not. Damn copycaters, can't come up with any of their own ideas, have to "borrow" somebody elses...


Jamesyboy

You're not alone, I like the movie too. In fact I thought it was brilliant when I first saw it, but yeah, it has faded into meh territory slightly since.

[John Crichton]

My opinion has dropped too. I really enjoyed it in the theater, and it's gotten worse since though I still enjoy it.

[Mark Olivarez]

I remember being bored to death by Superman The Soap Opera when I saw it in the theatre.

[Vaderbait1]

Anyway, as long as Zimmer, and anyone else associated with Remote Control stay well away from scoring this upcoming Superman film, I'll at least have something less to worry about.

But you know they won't. Ottman's failure will be considered a failure of "classic" scores and they'll go the TDK route with Zimmer or a knock-off.

Either way, I wish they'd stop making Superman movies. THere's no much you can do with a character like Superman, and what little can be done has been done...at least twice each. Superman Returns bombed not because it was bad (which it was), but because nobody cared except the few die-hards.

[Bryant Burnette]

Superman Returns bombed not because it was bad (which it was), but because nobody cared except the few die-hards.

And when a movie makes $400 million worldwide based only on the interest of diehard fans, you know you've got a franchise with a lot of potential. Therefore, you make another movie.

[Mark Olivarez]

There's no denying Superman has potential and is loved by fans around the world.

However when you spend 10 years trying to get the franchise rebooted and your budget is near a reported $300 million, counting those 10 years of paying others to work on it that $400 ain't gonna do it.

So now the best way to reboot is to copy Batman since no one else is capable of coming up with an idea for Superman?

[FattyMcButterpants]

What is there in Batman to copy that would be suitable for Superman? Not much I'd think.

[Mark Olivarez]

Make him dark and brooding.

[FattyMcButterpants]

And don't forget REALLY personal!

[Mark Olivarez]

And don't forget the bland non-existent score with no theme.

[fommes]

The line between good and evil will be blurred!

Like in censorship.

[Luke Skywalker]

This could end being a remake of superman III....

I think they will use red kryptonite...

[John Crichton]

Ugh, I think I'm gonna be sick.

[Jeshopk]

Raimi/Elfman or Raimi/young would be fun

[Henry Buck]

Oh God! After Spider-man 3, no.

[Wojo]

I've seen Superman II exactly twice (original and Donner cut), but never saw Superman III or IV: TQFP. I know the basic premise of each of these films, and just never planned to see them. I also saw Superman Returns last week for the very first time, and while it dragged in sections, I enjoyed it for the most part.

Its heart was in the right place, but it tried too hard to be the "true" sequel to Superman II. Since it ignores III and IV, it hits on a few plot points from II (Lois and Superman's lovemaking in the Fortress; Lex's first visit to the Fortress; Clark the only Kryptonian left after Zod, Ursa, and Nod are stripped of their powers), and tries to explain away the difference as being only five years. Superman Returns is one possible sequel to Donner's vision that we needed about 15-20 years ago, while the sour taste of III and IV were still fresh in the public's mouth. That's why Batman Begins prospered: the public remembered good Batman movies and were willing to move past the two bad ones, besides the fact that BB was really good and offered a fresh origin story. But by Superman Returns trying to be the logical successor of Reeve's Superman series after so many years, it failed to live up to that and thus could not launch a new/continued franchise. Canonical or not, I was looking forward to the Son of Superman concept more out of amusement than anything.

So if they do reboot the Superman franchise, the next installment will have to be another "origin" story, right? Mixed blessings galore. As great as Donner's Superman '78 was, it laid down so much backstory for Superman that any directors felt trapped by how much mythology Donner (and Puzo and everyone else involved) had laid down, namely Jor-El's plan for Kal-El to basically be the messiah of humanity. Not to get religious or preachy, but was the original intent of Superman in the comics to be a parallel for Jesus, in tights and a red cape, who fights for truth, justice, and the American way? Because that's the way Marlon Brando's voice over makes it seem. It's not a perfect metaphor, of course, since the death of Superman would not bring humanity its salvation, it would kill millions to billions of people by the hand of Lex Luthor. If they wanted to bring the Jesus/Superman metaphor full circle, then by all means, please film the Death of Superman story, where his noble sacrifice to kill Doomsday means that humanity lives (and then Superman comes back to life again). Superman Returns bleeds with the trappings of that mythology.

It also bleeds with the inability to paint Lex Luthor as anything other than a real estate mogul. What were his motivations in I, II, and SR? A new west coast; Cuba and Australia; a new mid-Atlantic continent. (I realize he had other motivations in IV, but I didn't see it so I don't know anything other than his own Superman he creates). Is there any other depth to this villain beyond real estate? Please explore a deeper Luthor in a reboot of the Superman franchise, or by all means, go get us another villain. The best parts of Superman II were the fights with Ursa, Nod, and Zod (as well as his delicious overacting), so there are other DC villains for Superman to fight.

For a while, Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman was really good TV. Then Lois found out who Clark was, they got married, Luthor died, and the show fell apart. Smallville is a protracted origin story that's just teenage soap opera drama covered up by comic book chic, but it's easier to sell a TV pilot with an attractive cast and turn it into a seven year event on The WB, than shove a $200 million movie blockbluster in the public's face and then try to turn the flop into sequels.

While the world doesn't need another Superman origin story since everyone knows the jist, in order to distance a new franchise from all the other Superman hooplah, it's probably what we're all going to get. Up, up, and away...


The John Williams music was a welcome addition to Superman Returns by adding to the emotional weight of the movie, but I don't think it's necessary to keep it for future Superman movies. The Superman '78 March, Lois/Superman Read My Mind love theme, the Krypton theme, and all the other themes belong to the films begun by Donner and Reeve, and followed by Lester and Reeve, Singer and Routh. For a new Superman with a new origin story and film franchise and cast and crew, it should get new themes. Keep Williams' music tied to Donner's mythology. After five movies papered with this music, there's nothing new here, folks. Time for something new.

[Vaderbait1]

This is a true story: Every time I see Superman Returns on TV or when someone I know is watching it, I ALWAYS see the same part. It feels like a freaking half-hour of him being weakened and then carrying something into the air. It's unbelievable how unimpressive it is and how long it is. It stands out to me because it's the same scene I always see for some reason, and it's always so freaking long.

[Alexcremers]

Smallville is nothing more than a spin on Dawson's Creek, but with the added 'bonus' of angst ridden super powers ie; cheesy garbage.

I'm glad there's still some observant people around here.

[Drax]

Smallville is nothing more than a spin on Dawson's Creek, but with the added 'bonus' of angst ridden super powers ie; cheesy garbage.

I'm glad there's still some observant people around here.

You grew up with PBS, didn't you?