169 replies to this topic

[Jeshopk]

It works to make the scene more gleefuly adventurous. It doesn't function as suspense music, nor does it have to. We see Shia getting hit in the groin repeatedly by sunflowers. The scene itself should have gotten cut down before scoring IMO, but serious music would have just made Spielberg look like an idiot, whereas now it is just boffo nostalgia.

Think about how you felt when the fart scene in TPM was scored with Flag Parade. On the one hand, it is good Williams ignored the tone Lucas set, but on the other, the score is in contempt of the film. If you think of it that way, it is completely hysterical to think of JW just completely blocking out what he was seeing.

[Josh500]

I think it definitely fit the scene well. Its more a question whether you like the scene itself in the first place.

While I understand everybody who thinks the music is inappropriate, I don't necessarily agree.

That scene where Mutt suddenly starts fencing with Irina is a shift in tone, I would say... it was tense before, but this is clearly meant to be funny more than anything else. I watched that scene last night, and noticed a couple of things that support this notion: Marion "teaching" him how to fence correctly even while she's driving and the plants hitting Mutt's crotch repeatedly. So I think the scene is scored appropriately.

That said, I think KotCS tends to go overboard with the comedy in places.

Also, this scene of Mutt and Irina fencing reminded me slightly of the Mine Cart Chase in ToD--especially the scene where Indy and the villains engage in a game of tug-of-war using Shorty. Now, if you think about it, this latter has also an element of comedy (as evidenced by JW's track Mine Cart Chase, which is quite hilarious), only it managed to juggle "funny" and "suspenseful" much more successfully than the infamous fencing scene in KotCS.

[Pieter_Boelen]

As far as the stand-alone track "The Adventures of Mutt" is concerned, it is a very good piece of music.
However, despite the Raiders March statements in it, it doesn't sound like Indiana Jones music to me.
Still, it's a pretty good track.

When it comes to it's use in the Jungle Chase, I'm not so convinced it is appropriate.
It's OK, I suppose, but I'm not impressed. Of course the scene itself does appear fairly lighthearted, but I think that's quite unfortunate.
A swordfight on top of moving cars could've been exciting and I think it would've been great if it was.
I do pretty much like the scene though, but NOT the hit-in-the-groin parts. That joke is BEYOND stupid and should-not-have-been-in-there.

The main problem with the inclusion of "The Adventures of Mutt" in the Jungle Chase comes on the OST album though.
The music starts a bit tense, then quickly becomes funny, then finally becomes tense again only to stop shortly after.
There's a great difference here with the complete track, where the first 4 minutes or so are tense, then there's a bit of funny Mutt swordfighting,
to go back into tense music again which lasts much longer than on the OST. In the case of the full track,
the inclusion of Mutt's swordfighting music is a lot less annoying and might even be welcome by that point.

After finally having listened to crumbs' excellent expanded edition of the KotCS score, I'm unfortunately still fairly disappointed in the final score.
The music near Mac's betrayel contains some elements from "Ah, Rats!!!" from The Last Crusade and I have to ask myself: why?
Then the action track for the escape from the warehouse opens with the "Flight from Peru" music from Raiders, which is used again,
but better, during the journey to Peru map scene. In the map scene I pretty much like it, but during the warehouse escape it really annoys me.
The remaining music for the warehouse escape is also not really doing much. Yes, it's clearly action music, but it's not really engaging or anything.
The most interesting aspect is the Ark Theme cameo, though that is over almost before it's started. On the whole, this action track pretty much leaves me cold.

Then there's "A Whirl Through Academe" which musically might be very impressively written, but it just strikes me as pretty boring.
For me, it completely takes away any tension during the college chase scene and for that reason, this scene again strikes me as pretty boring.
It appears that many people do like this scene, but despite me liking many aspects of the final film, this again leaves me cold.

Then there is "The Snake Pit" which, to me, is more interesting than "A Whirl Through Academe", because at least the music is doing something.
With "doing something", I mean "having a melody that you can sort-of follow, rather than just fairly random notes".
However, in the movie it again removes any sort of tension that might otherwise have been there.
In this scene Marion believes that they're going to die and there's the revelation that Mutt is Indy's son.
Neither of this is reflected in the music.

The Jungle Chase is pretty much all over the place for me. It starts out pretty good,
with a nice statement of Marion's theme and the only proper extended statement of the Russian soldiers' theme, which I really like.
Then the music again goes in fairly nondescript action music that lacks any real melody that I can discern.
The music gets more interesting at the point where the OST track begins, though then quickly changes shifts by going into Mutt's swordfighting music.
The best part, to me, is the march-liek music at the end of the track. I wished the rest of the track would've been more similar in approach to this.
Unfortunately this great action-march music is frequently interrupted with cutesy Mutt-and-the-moneys music, which takes it down a notch again.

Ants! is probably my favourite action track. It's got nothing cutesy or funny about it and does make good use of the Russian soldiers'/Dovchenko's theme.

Although I do think KotCS is a pretty good score for an enjoyable film, it falls short on comparisions with the other three on virtually all accounts.
Whereas I would have a hard time deciding on less-then-five-star tracks on the previous films' scores,
on KotCS I'd have a hard time deciding on more-than-four-star tracks.
On the whole, I think I'd rate KotCS as a 4-star score, which would be a compliment to most other scores.
In the case of an Indiana Jones score, though, this is just plain painful.

[Luke Skywalker]

Haha, like "The Basket Game" is the same as "The Jungle Chase" because both scenes are comedic. Of course not. There are many kinds of comedy. If "The Basket Game" was like "The Jungle Chase," instead of shooting the Arab swordsman, Indy would have had a full fledged sword duel with him, full of impossible stunts. Then he would have tripped and fallen into a townsperson, who in turn would have tripped and hit another townsperson and so on and so on until a domino effect took place and crushed the swordsman. That's the George Lucas of 2008 for you.

Don't drift from the point. I'm not saying that those two scenes are similar in their content. The point is that both scenes should have been scores with tensión and instead they get lighthearted music. Period.

And sorry but your comparison is faulty. Dont you remember the original Shooted version of the sword duel? It was even more stupidly comical, with a shoptender using the sword slashes to cut his fruits and etc (something from 1941 i think). We got the final version because (they always says this) Harrison had malarai and was not in the mood of re-shooting. In the end, Harrison's scene is better, but if he had not been i'll we would have ended with the original, and that was 1980 Spielberg.

I'm trying to find it on youtube, but i cant :/

[Quint]

The Jungle Chase scene WORKS. The score for that scene WORKS.

Personally, I think they're crap

[MrScratch]

Luke, you need to listen to the Basket Game again in context. Yes, it is probably the lightest piece of music in the entire score for Raiders but it scores a cat-and-mouse footchase about mid way through the picture - NOT a climactic multi-vehicle chase through the jungle, a head to head duel with the main baddie with the magic relic in hand. Indy's life was on the line in both scenes but the similarities end there, there was much more danger and so much more was at stake in the Jungle Chase.

[Luke Skywalker]

Luke, you need to listen to the Basket Game again in context. Yes, it is probably the lightest piece of music in the entire score for Raiders but it scores a cat-and-mouse footchase about mid way through the picture - NOT a climactic multi-vehicle chase through the jungle, a head to head duel with the main baddie with the magic relic in hand. Indy's life was on the line in both scenes but the similarities end there, there was much more danger and so much more was at stake in the Jungle Chase.

Look, beforehand, i am not going to change my opinion.

Again, i know that a footchase scene is not the same as a vehicle chase. We are talking about musical propperness of supposedly tense scenes.

Now, First, Indy kills the arab sword man more or less in coolblood, and they even mock it using the same lighthearted music in TOD.

Second, Marion dies.

The point is that neither movie is a serious drama, they have a lot of fun in them, so the music does not need to be like that either.

The Jungle chase anyway, its also a cat and mouse chase, as i said before. And really what are we dicussing here is mutts scenes, the rest is as fine a chase as Mine Car or Tank Chases.

[MrScratch]

Again, i know that a footchase scene is not the same as a vehicle chase. We are talking about musical propperness of supposedly tense scenes.

You can't deny the fundamental differences in these two scenes. If you want to talk about proper scoring than you have to address what is going on onscreen. You brought up the Basket Chase, my point is that the scenes call for different scoring altogether. Neither the main villain nor the magical relic appear in the Basket Chase and it is also a smaller scale action scene, hence the overall lighter tone of the music.

Now, First, Indy kills the arab sword man more or less in coolblood, and they even mock it using the same lighthearted music in TOD.

Luke, henchmen are discarded with no value placed on their lives in every action movie. This is totally irrelevent.

Second, Marion dies.

I'm so glad you mentioned this as it is even further evidence that the Basket Chase is a better scored scene. The music, with its playful tone, tricks us on an emotional level. Here we are enjoying a fun romp on the streets of Cairo and suddenly the love interest dies, or so we are supposed to believe. The music gets quite serious as Indy confronts the truck and Marion is believed to be dead.

With all this talk about Basket Chase being a "light piece", compared to the silly moments of LC and KotCS it is not light at all - it is just light and playful compared to the rest of the Raiders score.

If you really want to make comparisons, compare Jungle Chase to Desert Chase and Steal Beast. Compare Basket Game with the Snake Pit or Whirl Through Academe or Bug Tunnel.

[BurgaFlippinMan]

With "doing something", I mean "having a melody that you can sort-of follow, rather than just fairly random notes".

I never found Williams' atonal action music to sound like 'just fairly random notes'

[Quint]

Do you mean that if the movie is critically acclaimed, the score by definition, works, regardless of its quality?

No. I was simply making a nonsense comment, in a similar vein to this one:

It works because it was filmed 28 years ago, and it is not a scene of 2008's KOTCS.

[Luke Skywalker]

Again, i know that a footchase scene is not the same as a vehicle chase. We are talking about musical propperness of supposedly tense scenes.

Neither the main villain nor the magical relic appear in the Basket Chase and it is also a smaller scale action scene, hence the overall lighter tone of the music.

Therefore neither the nazi motif or ark theme appear in it, so what?

Now, First, Indy kills the arab sword man more or less in coolblood, and they even mock it using the same lighthearted music in TOD.

Luke, henchmen are discarded with no value placed on their lives in every action movie. This is totally irrelevent.

Its not irrelevant to my point. I just wanted to note that Raiders is a fun movie, not one to take seriously in every single scene, as KOTCS seems to need to.

Second, Marion dies.

I'm so glad you mentioned this as it is even further evidence that the Basket Chase is a better scored scene. The music, with its playful tone, tricks us on an emotional level. Here we are enjoying a fun romp on the streets of Cairo and suddenly the love interest dies, or so we are supposed to believe. The music gets quite serious as Indy confronts the truck and Marion is believed to be dead.

And Mutt music just points us that 'Anything goes' in the indy Universe. That was the point of the TOD unvelievable antics.

If you really want to make comparisons, compare Jungle Chase to Desert Chase and Steal Beast.

I did (with Mine car and belly)

Do you mean that if the movie is critically acclaimed, the score by definition, works, regardless of its quality?

No. I was simply making a nonsense comment, in a similar vein to this one:

It works because it was filmed 28 years ago, and it is not a scene of 2008's KOTCS.

In these forums, i still have to see proof from someone of old that any sequel post 1980s will ever had any good qualities in it. Most of the new films flaw can be rebated by equal flaws in the older movies. The only difference is that they were released many, many years ago.

[Pieter_Boelen]

I never found Williams' atonal action music to sound like 'just fairly random notes'

I'm absolutely convinced that the notes are NOT random at all and actually very carefully chosen and it does work to create the atmosphere of action.
However, without any sort of melody that I can follow, I just find such music fairly unengaging.
Sometimes I do like it and sometimes I don't, but on the whole I prefer more clearly defined melodic action music.
I have no musical knowledge at all, so I can't appreciate music very well on a technical level.
I can just judge what I hear.

[Datameister]

I noticed "A Whirl Through Academe" the first time I saw the film, before I had the OST, and it did sound kinda like random musical babbling to me. It took a few more listens for it to sink in, really. Now I quite like the cue, though I wouldn't put it on a list of my top favorites from the saga.

[Quint]

In these forums, i still have to see proof from someone of old that any sequel post 1980s will ever had any good qualities in it.

Many dislike The Lost World, yet I think it's a really fun and well made sequel, always have done. The score is quite suitable too. I like RotS, flaws included. I like the rebooted Batman series.

Truth is, the older films you refer to are simply better films than their more recent, obvious comparisons. There is no conspiracy on the board, there is just a small contingent of die-hards here who can't stand to read harsh criticism of their beloved franchises.

Incidentally, I really like Whirl Through The Academe, as heard in the movie. The music works because the scene it accompanied works; unlike almost anything found during the Jungle Chase. The former is actually a well executed action sequence, the latter makes a mockery of Indiana Jones.

Of course we strongly disagree and that is fine by me.

[Joey]

Ted, I like this track, and it worked for me.

this is tenative, as Henry Buck and richuk have not yet approved this comment for me.

[Marcus]

The stand alone concert piece " The Adventures of Mutt" is easily some of Williams' best music from his Indy scores. And that is saying a lot. As for the utilization of some of it for "The Jungle Chase":

The scene works well. The score works very well. And it is certainly very appropriate, -all of it, and I'd go as far as to say especially the music accompanying Mutt's antics.

Grave realism, real peril, etc., are not of principal dramatic importance in these kind of Indy set-pieces. The Indy films are genre films, and virtuoso genre films, meaning they are excecuted playfully, tongue-in-cheek. It would be completely silly to underscore Mutt's action with music of a more serious tone.

I find it generally questionable that whenever someone expresses enthusiasm on behalf of a more recent Williams score, he or she is immediately accused of "fanboyism".

Shouldn't we be allowed to be grateful for all of the wonderful music contained in KotCS?

KotCS is a marvellous score that couldn't have been penned by anyone but John Williams. Simply because his technical, musical standard is unequalled among current film composers.

I think nostalgia clouds the perception of quite a few posters here, and that is completely OK. Sentimental, surely, but very understandable.

But: It is just a film score.

For a fun movie.

And the music is brilliantly written. That should be more than enough.

[Quint]

I for one honestly appreciate your contribution on this, but I think this boils down to one fundamental difference between two distinct camps: Those who enjoy the movie, and those who do not.

I do not question the obvious technical merits of the music, but I do question its usage and here I believe JW missed the mark, moreso than any other time in his career. Perhaps it was even a first.

Either way, it is nice to see you here again Marcus. You always say something worthy of a read

It would be completely silly to underscore Mutt's action with music of a more serious tone.

I disagree. Contrast is a powerful thing (See: LotR action scenes). In fact I believe better suited music may have even had a shot at saving the scene from "controversy" entirely.

[Charlie Brigden]

I enjoy the movie but I don't think the cue works in the film. It's lovely outside of the film, but during the Jungle Chase, it seems at odds with the thematics of the scene.

[Luke Skywalker]

It would be completely silly to underscore Mutt's action with music of a more serious tone.

I disagree. Contrast is a powerful thing (See: LotR action scenes). In fact I believe better suited music may have even had a shot at saving the scene from "controversy" entirely.

I suppose KOTCS called for a dramatic tense choral Dark side beckons, Duel of the Fates or Battle fo the Heroes -esque sword duel music?

That would be more unfitting that what we have.

[Quint]

I suppose KOTCS called for a dramatic tense choral Dark side beckons, Duel of the Fates or Battle fo the Heroes -esque sword duel music?

Don't be ridiculous. C'mon man, leave the sarcasm out of it. It makes you sound bitter.

[MSM]

Actually I wanted to give KotKS a second chance, bought it on dvd and started to watch it the other day. However I didn't get to the Chase scene. The movie felt so dreadful and absurd it totally spoiled my evening :s This is no Indiana Jones.

The music I must add is great, especially the action scherzo's! The album also gets more interesting with every new listen.

[Josh500]

I noticed "A Whirl Through Academe" the first time I saw the film, before I had the OST, and it did sound kinda like random musical babbling to me. It took a few more listens for it to sink in, really. Now I quite like the cue, though I wouldn't put it on a list of my top favorites from the saga.

I definitely would.

This is one of the very best cues, ever. My only regret is that it's kinda short... but on the other hand, I think this is one of the very few cues that's heard in the movie completely unedited.

This shows me that JW is still capable of writing top-notch action music. I give this track a 5/5.

[Datameister]

I do like the weird trumpet motif that runs through the cue, and I especially enjoy the academic-sounding melody that comes in around 2:40. (It's such a fully-formed musical idea that it almost sounds like a quote from another piece of music or something...anyone have any ideas?) But the overall organization of the piece doesn't do it for me, and a lot of it feels like filler as far as I'm concerned. There's something about action tracks like "The Fist Fight/The Flying Wing" (I hate that title!) that makes every moment feel crucial, necessary, and fun, whereas I find myself wanting to skip to the "good parts" in this KOTCS cue.

[Luke Skywalker]

I do like the weird trumpet motif that runs through the cue, and I especially enjoy the academic-sounding melody that comes in around 2:40. (It's such a fully-formed musical idea that it almost sounds like a quote from another piece of music or something...anyone have any ideas?) But the overall organization of the piece doesn't do it for me, and a lot of it feels like filler as far as I'm concerned. There's something about action tracks like "The Fist Fight/The Flying Wing" (I hate that title!) that makes every moment feel crucial, necessary, and fun, whereas I find myself wanting to skip to the "good parts" in this KOTCS cue.

Um yes, Williams is quoting some other work whose name is eluding me now.

Brhams academic something?

[Henry Buck]

Haha, like "The Basket Game" is the same as "The Jungle Chase" because both scenes are comedic. Of course not. There are many kinds of comedy. If "The Basket Game" was like "The Jungle Chase," instead of shooting the Arab swordsman, Indy would have had a full fledged sword duel with him, full of impossible stunts. Then he would have tripped and fallen into a townsperson, who in turn would have tripped and hit another townsperson and so on and so on until a domino effect took place and crushed the swordsman. That's the George Lucas of 2008 for you.

Don't drift from the point. I'm not saying that those two scenes are similar in their content. The point is that both scenes should have been scores with tensión and instead they get lighthearted music. Period.

And sorry but your comparison is faulty. Dont you remember the original Shooted version of the sword duel? It was even more stupidly comical, with a shoptender using the sword slashes to cut his fruits and etc (something from 1941 i think). We got the final version because (they always says this) Harrison had malarai and was not in the mood of re-shooting. In the end, Harrison's scene is better, but if he had not been i'll we would have ended with the original, and that was 1980 Spielberg.

We would have gotten a bad scene... but we didn't. (Although, given the Spielberg and Lucas of 1980 I wouldn't have been surprised if it had worked.) I don't get that "The Basket Game" isn't tense, anyway. It's funny but it isn't light. There's a very manic, taunting quality about it, and obviously at the end it turns deadly serious. "The Adventures of Mutt," however, is a very celebratory, heroic sort of piece.

[Maxxie]

"The Fist Fight/The Flying Wing" (I hate that title!)

Me too. Got to be "Airplane Fight" as far as I'm concerned.

[Datameister]

Definitely. I renamed it as such in my edit. DCC FTW!

[Luke Skywalker]

We would have gotten a bad scene... but we didn't. (Although, given the Spielberg and Lucas of 1980 I wouldn't have been surprised if it had worked

You know it was post-1941 Spielberg. He may had gone into oblivion if the scene had been shooted like that...

"The Adventures of Mutt," however, is a very celebratory, heroic sort of piece.

But isnt it scoring a heroic sword fight? Its like 'Mutt's first very adventure' (remember 'Adventures of mutt' only score those sword duel scenes) Its also funny and lighthearted and thats why it fits the groin-joke too.

[E.T. & Elliott]

I thought the sword fight scene was one of the most "Indiana Jones"-like aspects of the movie.

[Charlie Brigden]

Definitely. I renamed it as such in my edit. DCC FTW!

I kept it, just because I really like the term "flying wing".

[Henry Buck]

"The Adventures of Mutt," however, is a very celebratory, heroic sort of piece.

But isnt it scoring a heroic sword fight? Its like 'Mutt's first very adventure' (remember 'Adventures of mutt' only score those sword duel scenes) Its also funny and lighthearted and thats why it fits the groin-joke too.

Try layering "The Adventures of Mutt" over the "Basket Game" scene in Raiders and see what happens.

[indy4]

Oh please.

[Luke Skywalker]

I never talked about interchangeable music??

[Pieter_Boelen]

But isnt it scoring a heroic sword fight? Its like 'Mutt's first very adventure' (remember 'Adventures of mutt' only score those sword duel scenes) Its also funny and lighthearted and thats why it fits the groin-joke too.

Nothing can fit those groin jokes. Those were just - plain - stupid.
I personally Indiana Jones should be above jokes of that particular level of stupid-ness.
I'd much rather have nuclear bombs, flying fridges, Tarzan money scenes and prairie dogs, but NO groin jokes.
Definitly the lowest point in the film as far as I'm concerned. At that point, for those couple of seconds that it lasts,
the movie just stops being an Indiana Jones movie even in the remotest sense of the term.

BTW: This comment is not at all directed at you, Luke. I just wanted to comment on those groin jokes a bit further.

[Luke Skywalker]

Well i prefered the storyboraded version of the groin thing. Irina was going to knee kick mutt while dueling. And mutt opened appart with the sword irina's top bottons so he would be distracted and work on her advantage.

It would have made much more sense, especially with the 'sexual' reference irina says.


PD: dont Marion, Willie or Shortround kick some henchman in the groin?

[Charlie Brigden]

PD: dont Marion, Willie or Shortround kick some henchman in the groin?

No offence, but that's going along the same lines of 'Well, the OT has bad dialogue too.'

Besides, the addition of a quick groin kick in a fight scene bears no comparison to having a character continuously hit in the groin while doing the splits across two moving vehicles. It's the equivalent of comparing BASIC INSTINCT's interrogation scene with hard-core pornography.

[Luke Skywalker]

PD: dont Marion, Willie or Shortround kick some henchman in the groin?

No offence, but that's going along the same lines of 'Well, the OT has bad dialogue too.'

Besides, the addition of a quick groin kick in a fight scene bears no comparison to having a character continuously hit in the groin while doing the splits across two moving vehicles. It's the equivalent of comparing BASIC INSTINCT's interrogation scene with hard-core pornography.

There are groin kicks or not?

I know its not the same, but saying groin jokes make a scene completely un-Indiana Jones maybe is too much too.


And definately, The Prequels have Bad dialogue, as had the OT. One reason why the OT is not critisized has been one of my points in this discussion.

[indy4]

PD: dont Marion, Willie or Shortround kick some henchman in the groin?

No offence, but that's going along the same lines of 'Well, the OT has bad dialogue too.'

Besides, the addition of a quick groin kick in a fight scene bears no comparison to having a character continuously hit in the groin while doing the splits across two moving vehicles. It's the equivalent of comparing BASIC INSTINCT's interrogation scene with hard-core pornography.

What about the rhino horn going through the roof in LC?

And FYI, the original Indy films had bad dialouge, that is part of their charm.

[Charlie Brigden]

What about the rhino horn going through the roof in LC?

What about it? Again, it happens for like two seconds and is a genuinely funny moment. It isn't thrown in our face for minutes on end.

And FYI, the original Indy films had bad dialouge, that is part of their charm.

Not really. Actually, those movies had some pretty great dialogue. RAIDERS, particularly. Hell, I'm not even criticising KOTCS for its dialogue, that was more a criticism of the SW prequel argument.

[Datameister]

Raiders was mostly perfect in terms of dialogue. TOD was frequently terrible, and TLC was somewhere in between. KOTCS is unfortunately average in terms of writing in the Indy saga.

And I thought the horn-through-the-roof stunt was at least as goofy as the flowers-to-the-crotch. They last roughly the same amount of time, and the horn moment is more comedically scored, with more emphasis on young Indy's "funny" reaction. Neither adds much to the saga for me, but I'm not losing sleep over either.

EDIT: And I've never been charmed by the shortcomings of the Indy movies any more than I'm charmed by shortcomings of today's movies. I have no qualms about preferring KOTCS over TOD, for instance. (Film, not score.)