2623 replies to this topic

[Taikomochi]

What is the specific difference between a motif and a theme, musically?

People generally call "major" themes that represent a major character or place or idea and maybe get their own concert arrangement a "theme", while "minor" themes that might not get played as often or not get a full development "motifs"

Wikipedia defines motif quite aptly: Motif is a short musical idea a salient recurring figure, musical fragment or succession of notes that has some special importance in or is characteristic of a composition.

For a theme it says: A theme may be perceivable as a complete musical expression in itself, separate from the work in which it is found (Drabkin 2001). In contrast to an idea or motif, a theme is usually a complete phrase or period (Dunsby 2002). The Encyclopédie Fasquelle defines a theme as "Any element, motif, or small musical piece that has given rise to some variation becomes thereby a theme." (Michel 1958–61).

So there are different theories or ideas how each is defined, but apparently nothing truly definitive.

I think that was helpful. Judging by what you posted, could it be said that a theme has more of a self-sufficiency, being able to stand alone outside the work(as mentioned, being able to have a concert arrangement?), that motifs lack. In addition, it has a certain amount of variation, found within the score, allowing the theme to develop. Could it be said that a recurring phrase without development is more of a motif than a theme?

[Incanus]

Could it be said that a recurring phrase without development is more of a motif than a theme?

I personally would understand and most often use it that way.

But in leitmotivic sense a theme/leitmotif can be either long or short so the length of the musical phrase is not relevant.

[indy4]

Actually, the leitmotif as Wagner used it was different than just a thematic idea associated with a character/place/idea. That is "l'idee fixe," which had been used for centuries by many other composers. The leitmotif was different in that Wagner would develop certain themes to the point of unrecognizability (without serious study), or derive one leitmotif from another leitmotif, etc. Sort of like how the theme heard on piano in "Remembering Emilie and Finale" is derived from the ascending theme first heard in "Dartmoor," or how "Adventures of Mutt" is derived from Raiders March.

Also, anybody know which recording of the Metropolis Symphony is best?

[Richard]

What is the specific difference between a motif and a theme, musically?

People generally call "major" themes that represent a major character or place or idea and maybe get their own concert arrangement a "theme", while "minor" themes that might not get played as often or not get a full development "motifs"

So, what would that make the 5 notes from "CE3K", or the two notes from "Jaws" - motifs, or themes? It's a twister!!

[Alexander]

For example, the music for the droids in SW is a motif, because it does not recur much. The music for The Force however is a theme because it recurs.

[Faleel]

what about recurring motifs?

[Alexander]

I think nobody really knows it.

[indy4]

Question for the musicians here: What do you call the technique where you've got melodies that suggest two different time signatures playing over each other?

[Datameister]

Polymetricism!

...just kidding, I made that up. Not sure if there is a word for that.

[Stefancos]

Question for the musicians here: What do you call the technique where you've got melodies that suggest two different time signatures playing over each other?

A noise!

[Wojo]

I know what you're getting at, because I've heard it and played it, but I don't know if it has a specific word.

You certainly would not want to have different instruments playing their parts to different signatures that differ by number of beats, because when the group falls apart and the conductor has to restart at "measure 100," well...that will mean different things to different groups.

But the implied feeling of different meters can be mixed together, like 3/4 and 6/8, if conducted as a waltz, or 2/4 and 6/8, if conducted as a march. The bass has one feel and the melody another, and the drums, well...nobody really knows what the drummers would be thinking.

[gkgyver]

Is Williams' Superman Main Theme a good example for this?
Because it has a march feeling, but is written in 12/8 if my piano sheet music is correct.

[indy4]

Is Williams' Superman Main Theme a good example for this?
Because it has a march feeling, but is written in 12/8 if my piano sheet music is correct.

It may be notated that way, but when listening it can be "felt" as 4/4 or 12/8, it wouldn't really make too much of a difference (although it would change the notation quite a bit). I'm talking about really obvious contrasts, a little more extreme than the examples Wojo mentioned. Times when you feel like the composer is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. It's an awesome effect. Here's an example. At 7:06-7:12 of this video, there's a melody that suggests a 4/4 feeling, but at the same time brass players play dotted half notes, suggesting a 3/4 feeling.

[Faleel]

anybody know where the harp fadeout in the "childhood" song mockup by John Takis was taken from?

[Wojo]

I was providing examples that would be different but still fall within the same meter.

This Ticheli piece is a good example of an off-meter rhythm providing tension to the main melody.

[ComposerEthan]

A couple of things:

Has anyone tried to analyze the "Battle in the Snow"?

What are people's thoughts on "America, and the Dream goes on"? I like it, although the secondary motif or whatever sounds like the theme to Hawaii-Five-O a bit. And was it responsible for his leaving the Boston Pops (I saw that in a youtube comment)

Has anyone analyzed Soundings and is there any other performance or official recording of it?

[Richard]

A quick Jerry Goldsmith question: does anyone know why the score for "The Final Conflict" was not released until 1986?

[Charlie Brigden]

From the liner notes of The Deluxe Edition:

Ironically, with the incredible popularity of both of his previous Omen scores, The Final Conflict came to theaters at a time when releases of orchestral film scores as soundtrack albums were becoming rarer. The Final Conflict was released in 1981 and, par for the times, was not accompanied by a soundtrack. It wasn't until five years later that Masters Film Music took on this score as its first release to be distributed by Varese Sarabande Records.

So, in a nutshell, it's Giorgio Moroder's fault

[Richard]

Ooh, er. Thanks for that, Charlie. Now I know who to blame.*













* actually, I rather like "Midnight Express".

[MrJosh]

Does anyone that has the TOD sheets know what the story is behind "2M2Revised Map Extension (Alternate Pages 1 & 2) ?"

It just looks like the trumpet melody and viola lines written out and some text is written in the piano/ celeste lines that I can't quite make out. Looks like it says "[first word] from original R2P2 bars." I can't tell what the first word is.

Anyway, not extremely important, just curiosity has gotten the best of me.

[Jason LeBlanc]

"Copy from"

[MrJosh]

ah...interesting. So...it doesn't look like the alternate pages are different from the actual revised map extension. Thank you Jason

[Marian Schedenig]

Has anyone tried to analyze the "Battle in the Snow"?

Except for the analysis in the SE liner notes I suppose?

If memory serves (I'm too lazy to re-read the entire chapter at the moment), this book by Kathryn Kalinak contains at least a partial analysis of the cue. Although the motif interpretations differ slightly.

[Josh500]

Question:

"The Scroll Theme" at the end of the third track on the Tintin OS album, which instruments play the main melody? Flute? And what else? Clarinets?

I especially like the slightly "rough" quality it has. . . what is that? Doubled by an accordion? I think that slight touch is genius!

[Incanus]

I think it might the instruments you just mentioned plus a some sort of synth mark tree or twinkling effect underneath.

[Josh500]

That's it? Flutes, clarinets, accordion?

[Incanus]

And I think there is a subtle horn backing to the whole melody as a texture underneath.

[Josh500]

Yes.

And of course the subtle but very effective pizzicato hits and the harp...

[Alexander]

Question:

"The Scroll Theme" at the end of the third track on the Tintin OS album, which instruments play the main melody? Flute? And what else? Clarinets?

I especially like the slightly "rough" quality it has. . . what is that? Doubled by an accordion? I think that slight touch is genius!

Flute, Accordion, Synth, Celeste + Harpsichord (synth), Harp, Violins, Violas, Celli and Bassi. At the end 2 horns and 3 trombones also play (the trombones are con sordini)

The last part of "The Secret of the Scrolls" (the one that you mentioned) from 2:28 - end is actually the latter half of "1m6 Empty Drawers". The first part consists of Tintin's theme played on 2 horns, clarinets and alto flute, synth and strings.

[Josh500]

Question:

"The Scroll Theme" at the end of the third track on the Tintin OS album, which instruments play the main melody? Flute? And what else? Clarinets?

I especially like the slightly "rough" quality it has. . . what is that? Doubled by an accordion? I think that slight touch is genius!

Flute, Accordion, Synth, Celeste + Harpsichord (synth), Harp, Violins, Violas, Celli and Bassi. At the end 2 horns and 3 trombones also play (the trombones are con sordini)

The last part of "The Secret of the Scrolls" (the one that you mentioned) from 2:28 - end is actually the latter half of "1m6 Empty Drawers". The first part consists of Tintin's theme played on 2 horns, clarinets and alto flute, synth and strings.

Thanks!

I find this theme mind-blowingly good... in part because of the way it's orchestrated. Sends shivers down your spine, almost.

[Richard]

A quick "Star Wars" question;
During the battle of Endor, why the frack didn't the empire send it the AT-AT?! Was it in the shop for repair, that day?
Look at what one AT-AT did to the shield generator on Hoth. One AT-AT would obliterate those stupid teddy bears, and the alliance along with with it! Also, if TIE fighters can operate in the atmosphere, why not mount an aerial assault?

[Maglorfin]

Also, anybody know which recording of the Metropolis Symphony is best?

I own this version which I quite like, but then it's true I haven't heard many others yet - although I have heard this symphony performed live last year here in Ljubljana, Slovenian Philharmonic played it with the composer in attendance, and they did a great job.

[Wojo]

A quick "Star Wars" question;
During the battle of Endor, why the frack didn't the empire send it the AT-AT?! Was it in the shop for repair, that day?
Look at what one AT-AT did to the shield generator on Hoth. One AT-AT would obliterate those stupid teddy bears, and the alliance along with with it! Also, if TIE fighters can operate in the atmosphere, why not mount an aerial assault?

That's a valid question, considering that we know the Empire did have at least one AT-AT on Endor at the time. It is visible driving up alongside the shuttle landing platform the night Luke turns himself in.

The easy answer is that it would have given the Empire an even bigger advantage over the Ewok-Rebel alliance, making the Empire loss even more ludicrous. The plot required the Rebels to win.

The tactical answer is that an AT-AT would not be mobile enough inside the dense trees where the shield generator bunker was located. A massive structure like the landing platform required an immense clearing, giving the AT-AT enough room to walk around in the clear. That was not true deeper in the forest, hence the usage of the AT-ST.

Would the AT-AT be able to blast a path through the trees? Certainly. Obviously there wasn't room in the special effects budget to show the Empire's logging abilities.

As for using TIEs, remember that the Emperor was grossly overconfident in what he deployed at Endor. He didn't think anything beyond some stroomtrooper infantry and a few scout transports would be required to defend the bunker. Additionally, the tree coverage was too tall and dense for the TIEs to get a clear shot at anything on the ground without destroying half the forest, taking out the bunker itself as collateral. The risk was too great.

Otherwise, why not just throttle the Death Star laser beam down to something like 0.0000000001% of its strength and target the Rebels on the moon? Sure, that's like using your own gun to shoot a fly off your back; a good enough shot can do it.

We know the Empire had a lot of toys. The point of the Battle of Endor was that they kept a lot of their toys out of the battle, and the Ewoks were able to defeat them because the plot said "bad guyz must looze." A "real" tactician would not have lost the battle; a real tactician would have napalmed the Ewoks before breaking ground.

[Marian Schedenig]

Also, anybody know which recording of the Metropolis Symphony is best?

I own this version which I quite like, but then it's true I haven't heard many others yet - although I have heard this symphony performed live last year here in Ljubljana, Slovenian Philharmonic played it with the composer in attendance, and they did a great job.

I have the same recording. All the Naxos Daugherty discs are great.

[Richard]

A quick "Star Wars" question;
During the battle of Endor, why the frack didn't the empire send it the AT-AT?! Was it in the shop for repair, that day?
Look at what one AT-AT did to the shield generator on Hoth. One AT-AT would obliterate those stupid teddy bears, and the alliance along with with it! Also, if TIE fighters can operate in the atmosphere, why not mount an aerial assault?

That's a valid question, considering that we know the Empire did have at least one AT-AT on Endor at the time. It is visible driving up alongside the shuttle landing platform the night Luke turns himself in.

The easy answer is that it would have given the Empire an even bigger advantage over the Ewok-Rebel alliance, making the Empire loss even more ludicrous. The plot required the Rebels to win.

The tactical answer is that an AT-AT would not be mobile enough inside the dense trees where the shield generator bunker was located. A massive structure like the landing platform required an immense clearing, giving the AT-AT enough room to walk around in the clear. That was not true deeper in the forest, hence the usage of the AT-ST.

Would the AT-AT be able to blast a path through the trees? Certainly. Obviously there wasn't room in the special effects budget to show the Empire's logging abilities.

As for using TIEs, remember that the Emperor was grossly overconfident in what he deployed at Endor. He didn't think anything beyond some stroomtrooper infantry and a few scout transports would be required to defend the bunker. Additionally, the tree coverage was too tall and dense for the TIEs to get a clear shot at anything on the ground without destroying half the forest, taking out the bunker itself as collateral. The risk was too great.

Otherwise, why not just throttle the Death Star laser beam down to something like 0.0000000001% of its strength and target the Rebels on the moon? Sure, that's like using your own gun to shoot a fly off your back; a good enough shot can do it.

We know the Empire had a lot of toys. The point of the Battle of Endor was that they kept a lot of their toys out of the battle, and the Ewoks were able to defeat them because the plot said "bad guyz must looze." A "real" tactician would not have lost the battle; a real tactician would have napalmed the Ewoks before breaking ground.

I love the smell of burning Ewok in the morinin'. Feels like...victory.

Thanks for that. It just goes to show that the Emperor was a twat.

[Alexander]

If i wanted to listen to Ralph Vaughan Williams, what would you recommend me?

[Incanus]

If i wanted to listen to Ralph Vaughan Williams, what would you recommend me?

To name some of my favourites in no particular order, which are in my opinion a quite good pieces to start listening to Vaughan Williams:
A Fantasia on the Theme by Thomas Tallis,
Oboe Concerto,
Concerto Grosso,
Norfolk Rhapsody,
Sinfonia Antartica,
Aristophanic Suite: The Wasps,
The Lark Ascending,
English Folk Song Suite
Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus

[Wojo]

English Folk Song Suite

+1

[Marian Schedenig]

If i wanted to listen to Ralph Vaughan Williams, what would you recommend me?

This box set.

Add the LSO/Hickox London Symphony if you like the version on this set (because the Hickox recording is of the uncut original version and brilliantly performed) and e.g. this 2CD set for some more stuff like the wonderful English Folk Song Suite.

English Folk Song Suite

+1

+1


Of course, the Tallis Fantasia reigns supreme. And the above mentioned Davis box set has one of the best recordings of it.

[Omen II]

If i wanted to listen to Ralph Vaughan Williams, what would you recommend me?

Some of his film music is superb, Alexander. I highly recommend the Chandos recordings available in this reasonably priced box set, containing such greats as Scott of the Antarctic (which I find quite Herrmannesque in places), 49th Parallel and Coastal Command, amongst other gems:

http://www.chandos.n...er=CHAN%2010529

Incanus rightly mentions The Lark Ascending. If you have to choose just one version, check out the LSO recording with Hilary Hahn - it's one of the most beautiful things you will ever hear.