131 replies to this topic

[Taikomochi]

I often find myself listening to his more recent works, and I can always hear the last score or few scores he made in it. For example, The Dark Knight influenced Frost/Nixon in that a lot of the Joker percussion was reused, Angels & Demons in that complete rip off of "Watch The World Burn", and less so in Sherlock Holmes with the brief use of electric cello which he more or less smacks into the listener's ears with the Joker's theme.

Other examples?

[fommes]

That's because with The Dark Knight what he was really doing was prepping himself for Frost/Nixon.

[indy4]

A section of "The Battle" from Gladiator was reused in PotC.

[Datameister]

Zimmer is an extremely green composer - he recycles everything. I'm no hater...I actually like some of his stuff quite a bit. But every one of his scores has very significant similarities to other scores he's written, often with passages copied almost verbatim. Doesn't help that he uses very distinctive synth sounds, either - those will make two scores sound a lot more similar than just using the same acoustic instruments.

[Michael]

I think the problem is that he scores too many films per year. If he focused in only one or two, I bet the results would be different.

[Jack]

The problem is he's arrogant and lazy!

[Koray Savas]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: It's called style. Not that much is as verbatim as you guys think.

[bondo]

For the millionth time, most composers do that!! You can't tell me these sequential scores don't have something in common:

Jerry Goldsmith: Star Trek Nemesis --> Timeline
Alan Silvestri: The Mummy Returns --> Van Helsing --> Beowulf, GI Joe --> A-Team
David Arnold: Stargate --> Independence Day --> Godzilla
James Horner: The Perfect Storm --> Enemy at the Gates --> Troy
John Williams: Attack of the Clones --> Minority Report --> Chamber of Secrets
Trevor Rabin: National Treasure --> Get Smart --> Race to Witch Mountain
John Powell: Antz --> Chicken Run --> Evolution, The Bourne Trilogy --> Paycheck --> Mr. & Mrs. Smith --> Green Zone

I agree 100% with Koray, it's STYLE. If a composer wrote 100% new material every time he did a new score, he wouldn't be as marketable in Hollywood. They're not accidentally doing it...

[BurgaFlippinMan]

I think its self plagiarism. Some do it with more style than others (and Zimmer is not one of them)

[Datameister]

There's style, and then there's self-plagiarism. There is a difference. Style is what connects Raiders and ESB - it's very clear that they were written by the same composer, yet there's nothing interchangeable in the two scores. But transplant the main titles from A Beautiful Mind over the opening title sequence of Bicentennial Man, and the effect is the same. Play the right part of "Too Many Notes - Not Enough Rest", and most people will say, "Ooh, Pirates!" Play Lucius Malfoy's theme over a scene from AOTC, and anyone who's only familiar with the latter would be sure it's a new statement of the Separatists' theme. That's self-plagiarism, and it does NOT increase marketability. Just deprives listeners of hearing something truly new. Zimmer is DEFINITELY not the only who has does this, but he's among those who do it most consistently.

[Quint]

A section of "The Battle" from Gladiator was reused in PotC.

And it's also the Driving Miss Daisy theme, inverted!

[Datameister]

*

[Taikomochi]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: It's called style. Not that much is as verbatim as you guys think.

I don't think it's him copying himself. I just think it's interesting how certain elements of one score will pop up in the next few, not even to the extent that I would call self plagiarism, and then they disappear.

[bondo]

I remember reading an interview with Zimmer shortly after THE PEACEMAKER in which he said there were certain things he wanted to do in CRIMSON TIDE that he wasn't able to do (like expand upon the male choir a bit more), so he continued that style with PEACEMAKER.

Horner is the only one whose direct copying bugs me sometimes. Zimmer often references themes with some difference (melody, harmony, instrumentation, etc), but Horner outright re-uses note for note. But even in the case of AVATAR, it didn't bother me. I had the biggest grin on my face when the Hammerhead Titanotheres busted through the trees at the end to save the day, and the music sounded almost identical to The Rocketeer and Star Trek 2! I wasn't thinking "Yawn, boring re-use of music..."

[Taikomochi]

Horner is the only one whose direct copying bugs me sometimes. Zimmer often references themes with some difference (melody, harmony, instrumentation, etc), but Horner outright re-uses note for note. But even in the case of AVATAR, it didn't bother me. I had the biggest grin on my face when the Hammerhead Titanotheres busted through the trees at the end to save the day, and the music sounded almost identical to The Rocketeer and Star Trek 2! I wasn't thinking "Yawn, boring re-use of music..."

Yeah, to be honest, sometimes that reuse excites me. His reusage of Aliens in House of Sand and Fog sounds excellent in the score. I don't mind at all.

[BurgaFlippinMan]

the big difference with Zimmer vs Horner reuse is Horner's music is good to begin with, while Zimmer's is often not.

[Taikomochi]

I think that's true, but it's not so much a problem because his reuse isn't nearly as heavy.

[bondo]

Yeah that 4-note danger theme is pretty good......

[Red Rabbit]

It's without a doubt conscious self-plagiarism, but that doesn't mean you have to dislike it.

[Koray Savas]

A section of "The Battle" from Gladiator was reused in PotC.

And it's also the Driving Miss Daisy theme, inverted!

On a serious note, the Gladiator theme originated from The Road To El Dorado. There are a couple themes Zimmer has consistently used near verbatim throughout his career: a motif from Black Rain and part of what is most known as the Pirates theme. Everything else is almost just easter egg-like usage.

Giacchino does the same.

[Datameister]

Giacchino does the same.

There are certainly isolated examples where two different works will have similarities (e.g. Spock's theme is similar to Juliet's theme), and there are certain strong stylistic tendencies in some of his works, but the man isn't prone to outright self-plagiarism.

[Sandor]

There's style, and then there's self-plagiarism. There is a difference. Style is what connects Raiders and ESB - it's very clear that they were written by the same composer, yet there's nothing interchangeable in the two scores. But transplant the main titles from A Beautiful Mind over the opening title sequence of Bicentennial Man, and the effect is the same. Play the right part of "Too Many Notes - Not Enough Rest", and most people will say, "Ooh, Pirates!" Play Lucius Malfoy's theme over a scene from AOTC, and anyone who's only familiar with the latter would be sure it's a new statement of the Separatists' theme. That's self-plagiarism, and it does NOT increase marketability. Just deprives listeners of hearing something truly new. Zimmer is DEFINITELY not the only who has does this, but he's among those who do it most consistently.

Correct. Well said.

[Quint]

Bloody know-it-all!

[Richard]

I think the problem is that he scores too many films per year. If he focused in only one or two, I bet the results would be different.

Rubbish! In 1978, Goldsmith scored 5,or 6 scores, including Capricorn One, Damien, The Boys From Brazil, and Magic, all of which have a recognisable "Goldsmith" sound, but which sound as unlike each other as 5, or 6 scores could. The fact of the matter is that Zimmer is not talented, or experienced enough to be able to vary his sound.

The problem is he's arrogant and lazy!

That's more like it!

Horner is the only one whose direct copying bugs me sometimes. Zimmer often references themes with some difference (melody, harmony, instrumentation, etc), but Horner outright re-uses note for note. But even in the case of AVATAR, it didn't bother me. I had the biggest grin on my face when the Hammerhead Titanotheres busted through the trees at the end to save the day, and the music sounded almost identical to The Rocketeer and Star Trek 2! I wasn't thinking "Yawn, boring re-use of music..."

Yeah, to be honest, sometimes that reuse excites me. His reusage of Aliens in House of Sand and Fog sounds excellent in the score. I don't mind at all.

That's as maybe, but it does not excuse him re-using "Genesis Countdown" in Cocoon, or "Gaining Access To The Tapes", in Apollo 13.

[Koray Savas]

Giacchino does the same.

There are certainly isolated examples where two different works will have similarities (e.g. Spock's theme is similar to Juliet's theme), and there are certain strong stylistic tendencies in some of his works, but the man isn't prone to outright self-plagiarism.

I'm talking about the small quotes he'll throw in from other scores. Like the MOH submarine theme in LOST, or the Underground theme in Ratatouille, LOST in Speed Racer, etc.

[Datameister]

Oh, that's totally different. If you've got a concept that's used across different films or franchises and you want to make a tongue-in-cheek musical reference, that's fine. I mean, I can't get enough of the Yoda's theme cameo in E.T., and I think the MOH submarine theme gets its best workouts in LOST. The problem would be if Williams had used a very slightly modified version of Yoda's theme for E.T. himself, or if Giacchino had modified the submarine theme slightly to represent Syndrome in The Incredibles and Starfleet in Star Trek. That's the sort of thing that folks like Horner and Zimmer do all the time, I'm afraid. Much of it is really fun music in and of itself - but I'd rather hear music that's more specifically tailored to the film it accompanies. Music I haven't already heard.

[gkgyver]

Data is spot-on.

Typical android characteristic

[E.T. & Elliott]

The bottom line is that Zimmer is the worst damn thing to happen to film music. Ever.

[Datameister]

Nah, not really. Worst thing to ever happen to film music is the industry's over-reliance on countless rehashes of his style - a style that's most effective when used only every now and then - at the expense of "real" orchestral music that isn't as heavy-handed. Zimmer's music can be fun in the right context, sometimes even truly great, if not in the same sense that Williams' music is great.

[Quint]

The bottom line is that Zimmer is the worst damn thing to happen to film music. Ever.

No. Datameister speaks the truth.

[Luke Skywalker]

The problem with zimmer is that the usually non thematical action cues sound like variatons of the same idea.

And since he usually scores action movies...

[Quint]

Two sweeping generalisations I disagree with.

[Charlie Brigden]

My main issue is that he's very bad consistently. He seems to write like fifteen scores a year, and only one or two are ever anything beyond pedestrian. But I agree that the big issue is with the industry and their reliance on similar scores, but perhaps that is still Zimmer's fault as they usually end up using composers from his group, and as such we end up with awful composers like Trevor Rabin and Steve Jablonsky to create something in his vein. Which inevitably turns out to be shit.

[Quint]

I strongly agree with your last part.

[Koray Savas]

I like Trevor Rabin.

[Luke Skywalker]

Two sweeping generalisations I disagree with.

I couldnt care less

[Morlock]

Neither are really true, though. Zimmer action cues non-thematic? Absurd notion. Themes are one of the most notable aspects of the MV/Bruckheimer sound. Maybe not good one, and maybe the same one in a dozen different films...but themes are at the core of an MV score. Simple, recognizable ideas that people can latch on to. That is why they are so popular- it's not the electronics. People like themes. That is why the most popular film composers have always been the ones who presents themes front and center (Mancini, Tiomkin, Williams, Horner, Zimmer).

As for them being variations on the same idea...certainly a valid point, although not nearly as much as in the 90's. There is a far greater variety in Zimmer's work in the 2000's ("Usually scores action movies" being incorrect, of course).

As for the topic at hand- I think this is the quintessential "It was written by the same person, you idiot" situtation (that's the quote- I mean no disrespect to the thread's starter). That is not to say that 'style' is the key word...merely that composers hit upon something in one score that they decide to recall in another. In this respect, Zimmer is no different than Williams or Goldsmith...and comparing him in this respect to Horner is lunacy.

[Richard]

I like Trevor Rabin.

So do I, but, IMO, his real talent does not lie in the field of film music, but in rock music. His work with Yes is superb.

[Quint]

Two sweeping generalisations I disagree with.

I couldnt care less

Really? Your sig suggests otherwise...

[Koray Savas]

Neither are really true, though. Zimmer action cues non-thematic? Absurd notion. Themes are one of the most notable aspects of the MV/Bruckheimer sound. Maybe not good one, and maybe the same one in a dozen different films...but themes are at the core of an MV score. Simple, recognizable ideas that people can latch on to. That is why they are so popular- it's not the electronics. People like themes. That is why the most popular film composers have always been the ones who presents themes front and center (Mancini, Tiomkin, Williams, Horner, Zimmer).

As for them being variations on the same idea...certainly a valid point, although not nearly as much as in the 90's. There is a far greater variety in Zimmer's work in the 2000's ("Usually scores action movies" being incorrect, of course).

As for the topic at hand- I think this is the quintessential "It was written by the same person, you idiot" situtation (that's the quote- I mean no disrespect to the thread's starter). That is not to say that 'style' is the key word...merely that composers hit upon something in one score that they decide to recall in another. In this respect, Zimmer is no different than Williams or Goldsmith...and comparing him in this respect to Horner is lunacy.

This.