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#161 Incanus

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 06:56 AM

I love the television version. He's unlike any television villian I've ever seen before. It makes no difference to me if he's faithful to the books or not. He' s a good foil for Holmes because he can't be predicted

Unpredictability aspect is a good thing in the character but Andrew Scott's performance is a bit too over the top. The whole elaborate plot as presented in the episode and the character's demeanor do not match somehow. I guess Moriarty's acting could be a carefully constructed facade to throw both Holmes and the audience off track when it comes to his true nature. Holmes is eccentric and even flamboyant most of the time but this Moriarty who goes from laughing to the brink of crying in one sentence is just loony. I guess stark raving mad is the new cool intelligent super villain style.

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"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-

 

I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-


#162 Stefancos

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 11:49 AM

i agree. it's just a bit much.

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#163 Quintus

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:57 PM

I suppose I'd best watch these then.

#164 Chaac

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 03:42 PM

I love the television version. He's unlike any television villian I've ever seen before. It makes no difference to me if he's faithful to the books or not. He' s a good foil for Holmes because he can't be predicted

I really really like this Moriarty because it actually scared me a bit when I was seeing the end of the third episode.

It's a bit like what Nolan could have done with The Riddler.

#165 Stefancos

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 03:47 PM

Thank god he didnt.

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#166 Stefancos

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 03:32 PM

Well that was...rather brilliant.

I certainly hope there will be a series 3 now, just to explain how he did it....

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#167 Jay

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 03:36 PM

Can't wait to watch tonight!

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#168 Stefancos

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 03:36 PM

I'll keep this thread spoiler free today then. ;)

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#169 Jay

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 03:38 PM

Eh, I just won't read it again until after I see the episode. Will be watching it about 9 hours from now.

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#170 Stefancos

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 03:59 PM

Ok then.

Spoiler

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#171 fommes

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 05:37 PM

Very engaging episode indeed! The best of this series probably.

Holmes obviously used his homeless network, and probably fell into a safety net somewhere behind the van (after telling Watson more than once not to stay in the position where he was)?

#172 Stefancos

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 05:38 PM

He also used Molly somehow.

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#173 ashinyobject

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 05:41 PM

If there is a Series 3, it's going to be a while until it happens.
That sucks.

#174 Incanus

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 08:02 PM

A terrific episode, yet again. I have really enjoyed the show thusfar. Even Moriarty worked somehow better in this new episode. A rather nice modern spin on the whole Final Problem story.

Very engaging episode indeed! The best of this series probably.

Holmes obviously used his homeless network, and probably fell into a safety net somewhere behind the van (after telling Watson more than once not to stay in the position where he was)?

Yes it seems likely although I think Molly, the hospital staff and the crowd were all in on it.

He also used Molly somehow.

Yup, definitely.

I think this can lead into the follow-up story pretty neatly
Spoiler

Ars superior est vita hominum.

 

"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-

 

I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-


#175 Richard Penna

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 08:13 PM

Spoiler


#176 KK.

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 12:07 AM

Spoiler


Sigh. Now I'm depressed. Who knows how long it'll take for the next season! 2012 is going to be such a long year. So much waiting...wait for the Dark Knight Rises...wait for the Sherlock...wait for the Hobbit...


Its going to be a long year indeed...

#177 Stefancos

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 12:49 AM

Then again, Moffatt's writing is of the highest quality, so I'm sure he'll do a good job of explaining himself.


Of course Moffat did not write this one. ;

It did occur to me that this episode has a very similar ending to his season finale of Doctor Who.
Spoiler

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#178 KK.

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 12:56 AM


Then again, Moffatt's writing is of the highest quality, so I'm sure he'll do a good job of explaining himself.


Of course Moffat did not write this one. ;

That's stupid of me. I barely know who writes what in these episodes :P

It did occur to me that this episode has a very similar ending to his season finale of Doctor Who.

Spoiler


Spoiler


#179 Stefancos

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 01:17 AM

You really think I don't know that?

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#180 KK.

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 01:27 AM

lol Sorry. A lot of people who watch the show don't really bother with the books. How was I supposed to know you've read them? ;)

#181 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:40 AM

Think about it..... Moffat and Co. wouldn't just throw an episode like Baskerville in there because it's a great stand alone. It's barely a good stand alone. Carefully look at what Sherlock told Watson to do before the climax, and what Watson saw as he stumbled over after the climax.

I think it's either that, or a more simple bit of switcharoo in the intervening time before Watson stumbled over. But I think given what Sherlock kept insisting before the climax...the former is more likely than a switcharoo.

#182 Jay

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 01:26 PM

You're saying Watson only thought he saw Sherlock fall to his death because he is still under the influence of the gas he breathed in in Baskerville months before?

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#183 Stefancos

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 01:37 PM

Unless Sherlock concocted the gas with Molly, but that is a stretch, since nothing in Baskerville suggest he knows the formula.

Reichenbach takes place over a period of a few months,and it probably takes place some time after Baskerville. The suggestion that Watson is still affected by the gas is not very likely.

I read a garbage or laundry truck was seen in a shot somewere near the hospital, maybe Sherlock used that.
Most likely he needed Molly to secure a dead body to stand in for him, and declare him dead.

Think about it..... Moffat and Co. wouldn't just throw an episode like Baskerville in there because it's a great stand alone. It's barely a good stand alone. .


You don't think the fact that The Hound Of The Baskerville's is by far the most famous Sherlock Holmes story has anything to do with why they chose to adapt that one?

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#184 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:25 PM

You're saying Watson only thought he saw Sherlock fall to his death because he is still under the influence of the gas he breathed in in Baskerville months before?


The drug makes you see exactly what you want/expect to see. And I don't think Watson is still under the influence, but that Sherlock was somehow in possession of some after that episode. All it would then take is to have someone or some mechanism apply it to Watson. The evidence? Sherlock tells Watson exactly where to stand. He tells Watson to focus on him, and watch him as he jumps. Then there's the biker who happens to bump into him (another method of delivery?)

Certainly, it's possible that series of events was orchestrated as means to do a quick switcharoo, Moffat has knack for simple solutions (see the series premier). But I think it would be better to tie into to the Baskerville episode with that device than to do a generic game of charades.

If I were the head writer, I'd pick the drug solution over a random chain of events.

#185 Jay

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:38 PM

He would have to do more than simply drug Watson, though.

The whole point of killing himself was to make it look like he committed suicide to the assassins about to kill Watson, Mrs Hudon, and the detective would all abort their mission. So he had to make it look like he died to them.

It wasn't just Watson watching him on the rooftop, it was also the sniper who had his gun pointed at Watson. He had to make it look like he died to that person too.

And the ruse had to continue beyond the fall. After he hit the pavement, he would have been brought into the hospital, they would have attempted to resussitate him, etc, and Watson would have been there the whole time. How would he have fooled Watson for that long?

BTW, I don't believe Moriarty is really dead either. He probably had a gun with blanks and blood capsule in his mouth.


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#186 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:46 PM

It wasn't just Watson watching him on the rooftop, it was also the sniper who had his gun pointed at Watson. He had to make it look like he died to that person too.

Good point. Maybe he tossed good ol' Moriarity (or was he?) off the building, to satisfy the henchmen.

BTW, I don't believe Moriarty is really dead either. He probably had a gun with blanks and blood capsule in his mouth.


I would feel incredibly underwhelmed if the Great Sherlock Holmes was fooled by fake blood and blanks, hell even caught in a moment of panic to miss those details. If Moriarity is to be alive, it should be because the idiot who shot himself on the roof top wasn't Moriarity but a minion of his pretending to be him.


Also...I thought this was good:

http://lmn.soup.io/p...ree-Episode-One

#187 Jay

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:50 PM

When the "actor" pretending to be Moriarty first appeared with evidence he was a children's programming actor, I figured Moriarty had a twin brother

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#188 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:52 PM

When the "actor" pretending to be Moriarty first appeared with evidence he was a children's programming actor, I figured Moriarty had a twin brother


Yeah, it'll be interesting to see where they go with Moriarity after building him up as the arch nemesis. By canon Moriarity should be dead. But by canon Moffat and Co. have run out of major Doyle stories (there's two more after this).

And the ruse had to continue beyond the fall. After he hit the pavement, he woudl have been brought into the hospital, they would have attempted to resussitate him, etc, and Watson would have been there the whole time. How would he have fooled Watson for that long?

Do we know that for sure? Also...one word: Mycroft. He has got the means to mold the story.

#189 Jay

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:54 PM

Well Watson wouldn't be faking it with the therapist and continue to fake it at the gravesight. He clearly believes Sherlock to actually be dead

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#190 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:55 PM

All I know is I await this scene in 2014:

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#191 Jay

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:59 PM

Also...I thought this was good:

http://lmn.soup.io/p...ree-Episode-One


ROTFLMAO

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#192 Stefancos

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:00 PM

Well Watson wouldn't be faking it with the therapist and continue to fake it at the gravesight. He clearly believes Sherlock to actually be dead


I'm sure he does.

The problem is, we wont see what happens for at least a year, probably longer. Whatever they have planned, we will probably figure it out before then.

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#193 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:07 PM

I think given that it's Moffat, it'll be something really simple. So simple you'll forget it by the time you get to the next scene.

He jumped into some soft cushy bins, his homeless network crowded around him, helped him prep the appearance of death, occluded the view for the spies and Molly and Mycroft took it over from there.

All in all I think Scandal in Belgravia, was the best damn episode of TV I've seen since Battlestar Galactica's Pegasus.

My rankings:
1. Scandal in Belgravia (Near perfect. The most human episode. Great characters, great character moments, sexy badass villain, cheesy in a good way ending)
2. Reichenbach Fall (Great character moments)
3. The Great Game (Tense, meaty)
4. A Study in Pink (Very good almost everything, decent villain)
5. Hound of Baskervilles (All wonderful atmosphere, no real meat)
6. The Blind Banker (I can barely remember what happened)

#194 Jay

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:07 PM

We know that Sherlock faked his death and was never really dead.

We know a body or something that looked like one fell off the roof, and was seen by the sniper following Watson.

We know several people rushed to the body after it landed.

We can assume that before he ever went up onto the roof, he knew that Moriarty would tell him he had to jump. He had everything set up before Moriarty ever showed up up there.

We can also assume that Molly in somehow involved in faking his death

I would also think his homeless network was somehow involved. That the people that rushed to the body on the ground were paid homeless people. Maybe one of them added fake blood to the ground?

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#195 Stefancos

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:10 PM

And one of them ran into Watson on a bike.....

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#196 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:14 PM

I would also think his homeless network was somehow involved. That the people that rushed to the body on the ground were paid homeless people. Maybe one of them added fake blood to the ground?


No doubt.

#197 Jay

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:14 PM

So one possibility is:

He never jumped off the building; he pushed Moriarty off, which called off the sniper. One of Sherlock's homeless network guys bumped into Watson as he ran over, giving Sherlock enough time to run downstairs and go outside, where he laid down where Moriarty landed and someone took Moriarty's body away before Watson could see. Perhaps Molly gave him something that would allow him to briefly appear dead, and somebody else put blood on the street. Perhaps the Baskerville gas was also used to trick Watson into thinking he had seen Sherlock fall and not Moriarty.

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#198 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:17 PM

So one possibility is:

He never jumped off the building; he pushed Moriarty off, which called off the sniper. One of Sherlock's homeless network guys bumped into Watson as he ran over, giving Sherlock enough time to run downstairs and go outside, where he laid down where Moriarty landed and someone took Moriarty's body away before Watson could see. Perhaps Molly gave him something that would allow him to briefly appear dead, and somebody else put blood on the street. Perhaps the Baskerville gas was also used to trick Watson into thinking he had seen Sherlock fall and not Moriarty.


Never has an entire internet been so obsessed with such a trivial detail. It really doesn't even matter does it? He survived. It's not even a cliffhanger. They showed it. Even if he jumped unto a helicopter to do it, that detail should be unimportant.

But it's how you know the show is leading the audience as a Sherlock Holmes story should.

What was it Sherlock said about little details? ;)

#199 Richard Penna

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:30 PM

Of course it matters... Moffatt's got the entire Internet trying to work out how he did it, like a magic trick.

I'm skeptical about him pushing Moriarty off, because we clearly see him jump. Question is, did he do it to even fool the 'camera', or were they showing it from Watson's perspective?

#200 KK.

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 12:24 AM

So one possibility is:

He never jumped off the building; he pushed Moriarty off, which called off the sniper. One of Sherlock's homeless network guys bumped into Watson as he ran over, giving Sherlock enough time to run downstairs and go outside, where he laid down where Moriarty landed and someone took Moriarty's body away before Watson could see. Perhaps Molly gave him something that would allow him to briefly appear dead, and somebody else put blood on the street. Perhaps the Baskerville gas was also used to trick Watson into thinking he had seen Sherlock fall and not Moriarty.


But when you watch the footage, you can clearly see Sherlock's face as he's falling, so I don't think Moriarty was pushed off. I don't think the shot is in Watson's perspective (although its very possible) either.





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