468 replies to this topic

[Incanus]

I love the television version. He's unlike any television villian I've ever seen before. It makes no difference to me if he's faithful to the books or not. He' s a good foil for Holmes because he can't be predicted

Unpredictability aspect is a good thing in the character but Andrew Scott's performance is a bit too over the top. The whole elaborate plot as presented in the episode and the character's demeanor do not match somehow. I guess Moriarty's acting could be a carefully constructed facade to throw both Holmes and the audience off track when it comes to his true nature. Holmes is eccentric and even flamboyant most of the time but this Moriarty who goes from laughing to the brink of crying in one sentence is just loony. I guess stark raving mad is the new cool intelligent super villain style.

[Stefancos]

i agree. it's just a bit much.

[Quint]

I suppose I'd best watch these then.

[Chaac]

I love the television version. He's unlike any television villian I've ever seen before. It makes no difference to me if he's faithful to the books or not. He' s a good foil for Holmes because he can't be predicted

I really really like this Moriarty because it actually scared me a bit when I was seeing the end of the third episode.

It's a bit like what Nolan could have done with The Riddler.

[Stefancos]

Thank god he didnt.

[Stefancos]

Well that was...rather brilliant.

I certainly hope there will be a series 3 now, just to explain how he did it....

[Jason LeBlanc]

Can't wait to watch tonight!

[Stefancos]

I'll keep this thread spoiler free today then.

[Jason LeBlanc]

Eh, I just won't read it again until after I see the episode. Will be watching it about 9 hours from now.

[Stefancos]

Ok then.

Spoiler

The rather extraordinary thing is that what happens in the end of the episode is exactly what people who read the books would expect from the title. The opening with John and the psychiatrist leaves little to doubt about how the ending will be, and yet all the way through I was nailed to my seat.
The central premise is a fascinating one. Sherlock is a genius, he is also an unbearable man. The general public would prefer it if people with fame or some extraordinary talent are in some way humble. This is why Hollywood stars buy a Prius, to appear that they are still in touch with normality. Holmes is superior to everyone around him, and apologetic about that fact, so the general public would very much like to see him put to shame.

The final rooftop scene is rather brilliantly done. Andrew Scott is a little less manic as Moriarty, and the final realisation that he can beat Holmes by killing his is well acted. He even seems relieved that it was not as easy a job to defeat Holmes as he thought.

The suicide. It certainly looks like Homes jumped. Even though Watson only got a glimpse of the body just after being (conveniently) run over by a cyclist. Of course even before the final shot I knew he was not really dead. But how? .....but how?

[fommes]

Very engaging episode indeed! The best of this series probably.

Holmes obviously used his homeless network, and probably fell into a safety net somewhere behind the van (after telling Watson more than once not to stay in the position where he was)?

[Stefancos]

He also used Molly somehow.

[ashinyobject]

If there is a Series 3, it's going to be a while until it happens.
That sucks.

[Incanus]

A terrific episode, yet again. I have really enjoyed the show thusfar. Even Moriarty worked somehow better in this new episode. A rather nice modern spin on the whole Final Problem story.

Very engaging episode indeed! The best of this series probably.

Holmes obviously used his homeless network, and probably fell into a safety net somewhere behind the van (after telling Watson more than once not to stay in the position where he was)?

Yes it seems likely although I think Molly, the hospital staff and the crowd were all in on it.

He also used Molly somehow.

Yup, definitely.

I think this can lead into the follow-up story pretty neatly

Spoiler

especially Holmes in secret hunting down Moriarty's assassins and other associates when the world thinks him dead.

[Richard Penna]

Spoiler

Moffatt confirmed that series 3 was commissioned at the same time as series 2. I think it's safe to say they've planned it all out.

I remember when in the flat, Sherlock mentions that Moriarty only needs one more thing to discredit him completely (his suicide); he then goes to see Molly, says he needs 'her' (fake a pronunciation of death?) and then heads for the roof.

I need to watch the jump again- some theories are that he threw moriarty, or the dummy we saw earlier in the flat. But it's also possible he landed on some sort of mat/net.

Also, I can't wait to see Watson's face!

Even though I've seen the film, I know the BBC's attitude to shows of this stature, i.e. Fawlty Towers ran for only 12 episodes because Cleese and Booth refused to write more for fear of lowering the quality. I thought Moffat might've done the same. I'm very happy there will be at least one more trio though.

[KK.]

Spoiler

That episode was bloody brilliant! Loved every minute of it. And even being a big fanatic of all the Holmes stories, I was kept at the edge of my seat. What I really liked about the episode is how Cumberbatch (what a year for this actor! War Horse, Tinker Tailer Soldier Spy and the upcoming Hobbit film...and each, with the exception of the last one, with high quality work) really shows that human side of Sherlock, a side which finally helps us empathize with Holmes. Great stuff! To me, this is probably the best episode yet!

I was at first really worried that the show was going to end off at that note. Luckily, there is another season coming up! About 15 min after finishing the ep, I was wondering "What the hell happened to Molly?!". I thought I figured out a serious plot hole. And then I found out that the show will continue for a third season and now its pretty certain that Molly was involved.

I don't think Sherlock threw Moriarty or the dummy off the building. You could clearly see Sherlock's face as he fell. I don't know what exactly happened, but hopefully they can really cover it up. Then again, the writing in this show is of the highest quality, so I'm sure he'll do a good job of explaining himself.

Sigh. Now I'm depressed. Who knows how long it'll take for the next season! 2012 is going to be such a long year. So much waiting...wait for the Dark Knight Rises...wait for the Sherlock...wait for the Hobbit...


Its going to be a long year indeed...

[Stefancos]

Then again, Moffatt's writing is of the highest quality, so I'm sure he'll do a good job of explaining himself.

Of course Moffat did not write this one. ;

It did occur to me that this episode has a very similar ending to his season finale of Doctor Who.

Spoiler

The Doctor and Sherlock both fake their own death

[KK.]

Then again, Moffatt's writing is of the highest quality, so I'm sure he'll do a good job of explaining himself.

Of course Moffat did not write this one. ;

That's stupid of me. I barely know who writes what in these episodes

It did occur to me that this episode has a very similar ending to his season finale of Doctor Who.

Spoiler

The Doctor and Sherlock both fake their own death

Spoiler

Well the episode ended the way it did because the books do that (thanks to public pressure). Sherlock dies in The Final Problem (b/c Doyle was sick of him) and then you realize he faked his death in The Adventure of the Empty House.

[Stefancos]

You really think I don't know that?

[KK.]

lol Sorry. A lot of people who watch the show don't really bother with the books. How was I supposed to know you've read them?

[Blumenkohl]

Think about it..... Moffat and Co. wouldn't just throw an episode like Baskerville in there because it's a great stand alone. It's barely a good stand alone. Carefully look at what Sherlock told Watson to do before the climax, and what Watson saw as he stumbled over after the climax.

I think it's either that, or a more simple bit of switcharoo in the intervening time before Watson stumbled over. But I think given what Sherlock kept insisting before the climax...the former is more likely than a switcharoo.

[Jason LeBlanc]

You're saying Watson only thought he saw Sherlock fall to his death because he is still under the influence of the gas he breathed in in Baskerville months before?

[Stefancos]

Unless Sherlock concocted the gas with Molly, but that is a stretch, since nothing in Baskerville suggest he knows the formula.

Reichenbach takes place over a period of a few months,and it probably takes place some time after Baskerville. The suggestion that Watson is still affected by the gas is not very likely.

I read a garbage or laundry truck was seen in a shot somewere near the hospital, maybe Sherlock used that.
Most likely he needed Molly to secure a dead body to stand in for him, and declare him dead.

Think about it..... Moffat and Co. wouldn't just throw an episode like Baskerville in there because it's a great stand alone. It's barely a good stand alone. .

You don't think the fact that The Hound Of The Baskerville's is by far the most famous Sherlock Holmes story has anything to do with why they chose to adapt that one?

[Blumenkohl]

You're saying Watson only thought he saw Sherlock fall to his death because he is still under the influence of the gas he breathed in in Baskerville months before?

The drug makes you see exactly what you want/expect to see. And I don't think Watson is still under the influence, but that Sherlock was somehow in possession of some after that episode. All it would then take is to have someone or some mechanism apply it to Watson. The evidence? Sherlock tells Watson exactly where to stand. He tells Watson to focus on him, and watch him as he jumps. Then there's the biker who happens to bump into him (another method of delivery?)

Certainly, it's possible that series of events was orchestrated as means to do a quick switcharoo, Moffat has knack for simple solutions (see the series premier). But I think it would be better to tie into to the Baskerville episode with that device than to do a generic game of charades.

If I were the head writer, I'd pick the drug solution over a random chain of events.

[Jason LeBlanc]

He would have to do more than simply drug Watson, though.

The whole point of killing himself was to make it look like he committed suicide to the assassins about to kill Watson, Mrs Hudon, and the detective would all abort their mission. So he had to make it look like he died to them.

It wasn't just Watson watching him on the rooftop, it was also the sniper who had his gun pointed at Watson. He had to make it look like he died to that person too.

And the ruse had to continue beyond the fall. After he hit the pavement, he would have been brought into the hospital, they would have attempted to resussitate him, etc, and Watson would have been there the whole time. How would he have fooled Watson for that long?

BTW, I don't believe Moriarty is really dead either. He probably had a gun with blanks and blood capsule in his mouth.

[Blumenkohl]

It wasn't just Watson watching him on the rooftop, it was also the sniper who had his gun pointed at Watson. He had to make it look like he died to that person too.

Good point. Maybe he tossed good ol' Moriarity (or was he?) off the building, to satisfy the henchmen.

BTW, I don't believe Moriarty is really dead either. He probably had a gun with blanks and blood capsule in his mouth.

I would feel incredibly underwhelmed if the Great Sherlock Holmes was fooled by fake blood and blanks, hell even caught in a moment of panic to miss those details. If Moriarity is to be alive, it should be because the idiot who shot himself on the roof top wasn't Moriarity but a minion of his pretending to be him.


Also...I thought this was good:

http://lmn.soup.io/post/221810896/Sherlock-Series-Three-Episode-One

[Jason LeBlanc]

When the "actor" pretending to be Moriarty first appeared with evidence he was a children's programming actor, I figured Moriarty had a twin brother

[Blumenkohl]

When the "actor" pretending to be Moriarty first appeared with evidence he was a children's programming actor, I figured Moriarty had a twin brother

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see where they go with Moriarity after building him up as the arch nemesis. By canon Moriarity should be dead. But by canon Moffat and Co. have run out of major Doyle stories (there's two more after this).

And the ruse had to continue beyond the fall. After he hit the pavement, he woudl have been brought into the hospital, they would have attempted to resussitate him, etc, and Watson would have been there the whole time. How would he have fooled Watson for that long?

Do we know that for sure? Also...one word: Mycroft. He has got the means to mold the story.

[Jason LeBlanc]

Well Watson wouldn't be faking it with the therapist and continue to fake it at the gravesight. He clearly believes Sherlock to actually be dead

[Blumenkohl]

All I know is I await this scene in 2014:

[Jason LeBlanc]

Also...I thought this was good:

http://lmn.soup.io/p...ree-Episode-One

[Stefancos]

Well Watson wouldn't be faking it with the therapist and continue to fake it at the gravesight. He clearly believes Sherlock to actually be dead

I'm sure he does.

The problem is, we wont see what happens for at least a year, probably longer. Whatever they have planned, we will probably figure it out before then.

[Blumenkohl]

I think given that it's Moffat, it'll be something really simple. So simple you'll forget it by the time you get to the next scene.

He jumped into some soft cushy bins, his homeless network crowded around him, helped him prep the appearance of death, occluded the view for the spies and Molly and Mycroft took it over from there.

All in all I think Scandal in Belgravia, was the best damn episode of TV I've seen since Battlestar Galactica's Pegasus.

My rankings:
1. Scandal in Belgravia (Near perfect. The most human episode. Great characters, great character moments, sexy badass villain, cheesy in a good way ending)
2. Reichenbach Fall (Great character moments)
3. The Great Game (Tense, meaty)
4. A Study in Pink (Very good almost everything, decent villain)
5. Hound of Baskervilles (All wonderful atmosphere, no real meat)
6. The Blind Banker (I can barely remember what happened)

[Jason LeBlanc]

We know that Sherlock faked his death and was never really dead.

We know a body or something that looked like one fell off the roof, and was seen by the sniper following Watson.

We know several people rushed to the body after it landed.

We can assume that before he ever went up onto the roof, he knew that Moriarty would tell him he had to jump. He had everything set up before Moriarty ever showed up up there.

We can also assume that Molly in somehow involved in faking his death

I would also think his homeless network was somehow involved. That the people that rushed to the body on the ground were paid homeless people. Maybe one of them added fake blood to the ground?

[Stefancos]

And one of them ran into Watson on a bike.....

[Blumenkohl]

I would also think his homeless network was somehow involved. That the people that rushed to the body on the ground were paid homeless people. Maybe one of them added fake blood to the ground?

No doubt.

[Jason LeBlanc]

So one possibility is:

He never jumped off the building; he pushed Moriarty off, which called off the sniper. One of Sherlock's homeless network guys bumped into Watson as he ran over, giving Sherlock enough time to run downstairs and go outside, where he laid down where Moriarty landed and someone took Moriarty's body away before Watson could see. Perhaps Molly gave him something that would allow him to briefly appear dead, and somebody else put blood on the street. Perhaps the Baskerville gas was also used to trick Watson into thinking he had seen Sherlock fall and not Moriarty.

[Blumenkohl]

So one possibility is:

He never jumped off the building; he pushed Moriarty off, which called off the sniper. One of Sherlock's homeless network guys bumped into Watson as he ran over, giving Sherlock enough time to run downstairs and go outside, where he laid down where Moriarty landed and someone took Moriarty's body away before Watson could see. Perhaps Molly gave him something that would allow him to briefly appear dead, and somebody else put blood on the street. Perhaps the Baskerville gas was also used to trick Watson into thinking he had seen Sherlock fall and not Moriarty.

Never has an entire internet been so obsessed with such a trivial detail. It really doesn't even matter does it? He survived. It's not even a cliffhanger. They showed it. Even if he jumped unto a helicopter to do it, that detail should be unimportant.

But it's how you know the show is leading the audience as a Sherlock Holmes story should.

What was it Sherlock said about little details?

[Richard Penna]

Of course it matters... Moffatt's got the entire Internet trying to work out how he did it, like a magic trick.

I'm skeptical about him pushing Moriarty off, because we clearly see him jump. Question is, did he do it to even fool the 'camera', or were they showing it from Watson's perspective?

[KK.]

So one possibility is:

He never jumped off the building; he pushed Moriarty off, which called off the sniper. One of Sherlock's homeless network guys bumped into Watson as he ran over, giving Sherlock enough time to run downstairs and go outside, where he laid down where Moriarty landed and someone took Moriarty's body away before Watson could see. Perhaps Molly gave him something that would allow him to briefly appear dead, and somebody else put blood on the street. Perhaps the Baskerville gas was also used to trick Watson into thinking he had seen Sherlock fall and not Moriarty.

But when you watch the footage, you can clearly see Sherlock's face as he's falling, so I don't think Moriarty was pushed off. I don't think the shot is in Watson's perspective (although its very possible) either.