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#201 Jay

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 12:47 AM

At some point during the episode, i forget when, I realized/remembered that the show opened with Watson talking to a therapist, and I realized there was a chance that EVERYTHING we were seeing was his version of events he was telling the therapist, which might not be what actually happened. Then after it caught up to his shrink visit, I was expecting a possible solution to be that reveal, but it never happened. Maybe season 3 will start out with that reveal?

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#202 KK.

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 01:16 AM

The entire episode can't be Watson's account of the story, otherwise he would have known about the whole conversation between Moriarty and Sherlock on the roof and his meeting with Molly and etc. He can't prove that Sherlock wasn't a liar because he wasn't there for half the meetings with Moriarty.

#203 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 02:13 AM

Excellent catch!

http://amyavenged.tu...-the-biggie-the

Sherlock Theory.
My theory on the “biggie” the thing Sherlock does completely out of character that everyone missed.
Sherlock cried.
As stated previously he tries to distance himself from emotions so crying, even at a time like that, is completely out of character.
During the scene where Sherlock receives pictures of factories where the children could be hidden, he says “Rhododendron ponticum. Matches.” This flower is at no other time mentioned.

Rhododendron ponticum is a poisonous flower, of which the symptoms include watery eyes, runny nose and difficulty breathing. Which could explain why Sherlock was hyperventilating so much after Moriarty’s death. It also slows your pulse right down to nearly nothing, so this would explain Sherlock’s lack of pulse.
The poison Rhododendron ponticum is also used in the 2009 movie Sherlock Holmes, Lord Blackwood has no pulse, at least none detectable. “Here is a toxin refined from the nectar of rhododendron ponticum. It’s quite infamous in the region of Turkey, bordering the Black Sea, for its ability to induce an apparently mortal paralysis. Enough to mislead a medical mind.” Sherlock also uses this poison on Gladstone to illustrate his point.



#204 Chaac

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 02:53 AM

I don't understand Moriarty in this episode.

#205 KK.

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 03:05 AM

Excellent catch!

http://amyavenged.tu...-the-biggie-the

Sherlock Theory.
My theory on the “biggie” the thing Sherlock does completely out of character that everyone missed.
Sherlock cried.
As stated previously he tries to distance himself from emotions so crying, even at a time like that, is completely out of character.
During the scene where Sherlock receives pictures of factories where the children could be hidden, he says “Rhododendron ponticum. Matches.” This flower is at no other time mentioned.

Rhododendron ponticum is a poisonous flower, of which the symptoms include watery eyes, runny nose and difficulty breathing. Which could explain why Sherlock was hyperventilating so much after Moriarty’s death. It also slows your pulse right down to nearly nothing, so this would explain Sherlock’s lack of pulse.
The poison Rhododendron ponticum is also used in the 2009 movie Sherlock Holmes, Lord Blackwood has no pulse, at least none detectable. “Here is a toxin refined from the nectar of rhododendron ponticum. It’s quite infamous in the region of Turkey, bordering the Black Sea, for its ability to induce an apparently mortal paralysis. Enough to mislead a medical mind.” Sherlock also uses this poison on Gladstone to illustrate his point.


That is indeed a great catch, but how do you explain the fall? And I was really hoping the crying was a part of the expansion of character development. Sherlock with emotions was very cool ;)

#206 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 04:54 AM

The problem is, we wont see what happens for at least a year, probably longer.


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#207 Stefancos

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 09:07 AM

Ave decem!

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#208 Jay

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 02:51 PM

OK so he took an extract from the flower on the roof (probably when he asked Moriarty to give him a minute to himself), causing him to hyperventilate and cry, made sure Watson was positiioned correctly to not see a tarp or something his homeless network had set up on the ground, then jumped off the roof and landed on the tarp, while Watson got knocked over by a bicyclist just long enough for them to put him on the ground, hide the tarp, and add fake blood.

Solved!

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#209 fommes

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 02:54 PM

Or, he can fly!

#210 Incanus

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 03:43 PM

I kind of liked Jason's reasoning there. Pretty much sums up my own ideas of what happened. Sans the flower extract theory since I never spotted Sherlock mentioning the damn thing. :P

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"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-

 

I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-


#211 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 04:51 PM

Reading Dr. Watson's alternate reality (gotta hand it to the BBC for their efforts on this shows online alt reality presence with blogs, twitter, formspring, etc.) Twitter is like reading sadness itself:

https://twitter.com/#!/watsonjw

#212 Marian Schedenig

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 08:16 PM

OK so he took an extract from the flower on the roof (probably when he asked Moriarty to give him a minute to himself), causing him to hyperventilate and cry, made sure Watson was positiioned correctly to not see a tarp or something his homeless network had set up on the ground, then jumped off the roof and landed on the tarp, while Watson got knocked over by a bicyclist just long enough for them to put him on the ground, hide the tarp, and add fake blood.


Sounds good. My best idea was that Holmes threw Moriarty's body from the roof and had Molly somehow officially identify the corpse as his. But it doesn't explain why the corpse's face still looked (from what could briefly be seen) rather like Holmes, why he moved during the fall, and in fact why he was so distraught before the jump.

Oh, and brilliant performances from Cumberbatch and Freeman!

#213 Richard Penna

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 08:47 PM

I can buy everything except how we see someone clearly landing hard on the pavement.

BTW, did anyone else notice the piano melody right at the end? It plays when we see Mycroft looking at the paper, and again when Watson talks at the grave. For me, it absolutely perfectly captures the feeling of loss.

It'd better be on the season 2 CD which I hear is already being prepared.

#214 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 03:07 AM

Where's the damn season 1 CD first?

#215 Docteur Qui

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 12:38 PM

I'm still suss about the cyclist conveniently clipping and disorientating John just after the fall. Also, there was garbage truck in front of the body which drives away fairly quickly. There's a fair few explanations coming to the fore.

#216 Richard Penna

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 01:18 PM

Season 1 CD comes out at the end of January. Why they couldn't release it on the day of the second season finishing is beyond me... nice tie-in there.

Maybe someone in the garbage truck was in on it, and threw the dummy from their flat on the ground, while Sherlock fell into the truck. Then while John is disorientated, quick bit of makeup and Sherlock swaps places with the dummy.

#217 Stefancos

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 02:11 PM



Is anyone here familiar with the Grenada TV series of the 1980s and 90's?

Since 3 only episodes on the BBC leaves one wanting for more, I found myself reaquentence myself with some of the original stories and the TV series of which I was a huge fan in my youth.

Yes the BBCseries is wonderful,clever, well acted, great to look at. but if you are truly a fan of the Conan Doyle stories, then the Grenada version is the definitive adaptation of Sherlock Holmes.

Jeremy Brett as Holmes is as if the character from the pages is a living, breathing man. brilliant, eccentric theatrical (even more so the Cumberpatch), with the looks, characteristics and piercing eyes, as described so many times. Brett IS Sherlock Holmes.

David Burke and later Edward Hardwicke were both splendid in their own ways as Watson. much closer to the literary version then most of the previous cinema and TV adaptations, which insisted of making the Doctor look like a fool.

Compared to the BBC series the Granada show is slower, as all 80's TV was. But the cinema photography, set design, costumes even casting was all first rate. I don't know how London looked in the late 1800's, but it MUST have looked something like this. Patrick Gowers violin based scores gave everything a touch of class (it's a huge benefit that this show was shot on film all the way through, unlike most BBC productions in those days, which used film for exterior scenes but video for interior scenes, making them seem hopelessly dated.)

The Grenada show has less obvious character development and does not go into the psychology of Holmes and Watson as much as the BBC show, concentrating more on the plot. Again this is entirely true to the original stories. (also TV was different in those days)

Again Sherlock is great, but I wonder how well it will age? The visual style might look state of the art now (though the fast-motion clouds is something Top Gear did already 10 years ago). But things that look fashionable now might look old fashioned in 10 years time.

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#218 Incanus

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 03:48 PM

Well said Stefan. I completely agree on your assesment of the 80's and early 90's Sherlock Holmes and how wonderfully and faithfully the series captures the spirit of the original stories. In some cases they have fleshed out the storylines more and to the benefit of the episodes every time. Doyle's writing style is very much to the point so to fill the 50 min. running time of the episodes the writers who adapted the material have added good material into the series and created a living and breathing portrait of London and world in Holmes' time that is completely believable in its Victorian veneer. Patrick Gowers' classy music complements the above mentioned set and costume design and great acting with a suitably refined quality that is deliciously melodramatic at times but always in step with the story. Jeremy Brett truly is Sherlock Holmes, his performance a mix of extremely melodramatic and very subtle, displaying a full kaleidoscope of the genius of the character and both men who play Watson are strong in their role as the "Holmes interpreter" who gets to ask the questions audience would like to ask. To modern standards the series might be indeed slow and somewhat dated but so very much in spirit of the short stories and novels.

Only time will tell if BBC's Sherlock will be viewed as a great adaptation of the classic short stories and novels as the Granada series is.

Ars superior est vita hominum.

 

"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-

 

I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-


#219 Stefancos

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 06:19 PM

Well, the authenticity of the Grenada series would have made it pretty futile for Moffat and co do do a show in the same style. Since the result would mostly be the same, with some faster scene progression.

The intent of both shows is of course different. One desired to be as faithful as possible (even replicating plot errors from some of the stories). The newer show simply takes the essence of the characters, elements of some stories and runs with it, and surprise even though who know the stories by heart.

Visually the only thing I dislike about the new show is that witht shots of London they feel the need to process the footage too much, why are parts blurred? It looks ugly.

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#220 Incanus

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 06:29 PM

The route Moffat and co have taken is a good and wise alternative to re-creating the same Victorian period as the Granada production. I think they have handled the modern day transition of the characters and plots pretty well and interestingly, finding good parallels in world of today for the details found in the original stories. This makes watching the Sherlock stories interesting since they usually change and find connections to each other not present in the originals.

And yes that odd effect on the shots of London made me first wonder was there something wrong with my monitor since some areas were so blurry all of a sudden. I don't care for it either. Doesn't add anything to the images.

Ars superior est vita hominum.

 

"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-

 

I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-


#221 Chaac

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 07:53 PM

The newer show simply takes the essence of the characters, elements of some stories and runs with it, and surprise even though who know the stories by heart.

I have a thing for this kind of adaptations, for some reason.

#222 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 08:36 PM

Visually the only thing I dislike about the new show is that witht shots of London they feel the need to process the footage too much, why are parts blurred? It looks ugly.



I have a buddy that works for the company that does the shows graphic works. The tilt-shift (the effect in the London shots) is supposed to convey Sherlock's "everything else is irrelevant" mindset. That's why they do it.

I like it.

#223 Stefancos

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 08:38 PM

It will look rubbish 10 years from now.

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#224 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 08:40 PM

Perhaps.

#225 Stefancos

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 04:36 PM

And yes that odd effect on the shots of London made me first wonder was there something wrong with my monitor since some areas were so blurry all of a sudden. I don't care for it either. Doesn't add anything to the images.


I have a buddy that works for the company that does the shows graphic works. The tilt-shift (the effect in the London shots) is supposed to convey Sherlock's "everything else is irrelevant" mindset. That's why they do it.

I like it.


My dear Incanus, what can we infer from his posts?

We know this Blumenkohl is methodical, maddeningly so. But he suffers from low self esteem. Clearly observable by the need to express himself with ever changing avatars and signatures. He is insecure with women, and considers himself unattractive. He will probably marry someone of lower standing.

He is critical of the opinions of fellow posters, but lacks the confidence to stand for what he beliefs. He's an Apple user, which means he is lazy and does not mind being condescend. but knows his way around Android, so this means he is not lazy all the time.

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#226 Incanus

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 04:50 PM

That's amazing Stefan! Come on, tell me, how do you do it? Is it some kind of magic trick or something? You had Blume's personal file at hand when you wrote that didn't you?

Ars superior est vita hominum.

 

"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-

 

I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-


#227 Stefancos

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 05:52 PM

You know my methods, dear Incanus. Apply them.

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#228 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 06:11 PM

Do you know what happens if you don't leave me alone, Stefan, to you?

#229 Stefancos

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 06:31 PM

Blumenkohl, don't let your nerves run away with you. I should not sit here posting with you if I thought that you were a common criminal, you may be sure of that. Be frank with me and we may do some good. Play tricks with me, and I'll crush you."

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#230 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:21 AM

No no no no no, if you don't stop prying... I'll burn you. I will burn... the heart out of you.

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And that's what you'll look like when I'm done.

#231 Stefancos

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 10:05 PM

Good old Blume! You are the one fixed point in a changing age. There's an west wind coming all the same, such a wind as never blew on the Internet yet. It will be cold and bitter, Blume, and a good many of us may wither before its blast. But it's God's own wind none the less, and a cleaner, better, stronger land will lie in the sunshine when the storm has cleared.

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#232 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 06:01 PM

Back on topic for a sec:

I'm moving from 50% to 75% confident Moriarty isn't dead. When he pulls the gun and shoots himself, you can clearly hear some kind of spray go off. Why?

#233 Stefancos

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 06:28 PM

I really hope he is dead.

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#234 Jay

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 01:19 PM

I never assumed he was really dead

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#235 Chaac

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 01:25 PM

He's dead.

#236 Stefancos

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 01:25 PM

I wonder why film and TV makers always focussed how heavily on Moriarty. He's in one single story out of the 50 plus!

It robs the character of any effectiveness if he keeps coming back again and again.

BTW, i've been reading the original stories and it's surprising to me how little are actually traditional "whodunnit" stories. Some stories don't even have a mystery. (The Adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton). And those that do often unravel in the course of the story, not in the last chapter with all the suspects assembled....

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#237 fommes

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 04:40 PM

Indeed on both counts.

#238 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 09:26 PM

I wonder why film and TV makers always focussed how heavily on Moriarty. He's in one single story out of the 50 plus!

It robs the character of any effectiveness if he keeps coming back again and again.

BTW, i've been reading the original stories and it's surprising to me how little are actually traditional "whodunnit" stories. Some stories don't even have a mystery. (The Adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton). And those that do often unravel in the course of the story, not in the last chapter with all the suspects assembled....


I'm with you.

#239 Blumen Cohlsman

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:32 AM

For those who want to see the unaired Sherlock Pilot:

http://www.youtube.c...7?feature=watch

Really weird how much slower Benedict spoke...I definitely prefer the faster speech in the aired series...makes him sound more genius.

#240 John Crichton

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 05:36 AM

I've absolutely loved this show. Shame we'll probably have to wait until the springish airing on PBS before the Blu release on this side of the pond. I'm on the fence about picking up the CD release.
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