588 replies to this topic

[E.T. & Elliott]

I love the original Indys. KOTCS is a rustily thrown together mess, but much of it is watchable. You can just ignore it.

Temple is Indy's zany mine cart ride off the rails into hell, with offensiveness all around. Last Crusade is the heart and soul of the character. They're both pretty different from Raiders, but I think that was the point.

[SF1_freeze]

Lucas bashing seems to be a new/old/whatever sport on this board, so sad...

The success proves that Lucas was right in the end. He just had another vision than the general fandom. Without him Starwars would be nothing and he was damn right to attract the children again with Episode 1. Jarjar needed to be there to get another generation of CHILDREN to enjoy the saga in a not super serious way and to detract from the darker parts of the movie. The prequels were hugely successful, created millions of new starwars fans and got us three amazing JW scores
KOTCS had 5 minutes of cringeworthy material but the rest was a GREAT, old fashioned adventure movie. Something that doesn't exist anymore.. and we also got another good JW score

So what the hell are you crying about all the time, give the man a rest. George did very well in the end. Starwars lives and prospers and all thanks to him...
KOTCS doesn't fuck anything up nor do the prequels, they are just different from your own expectations

[E.T. & Elliott]

It's not just Lucas who is bashed for KOTCS, though I will blame him right now for the poor CGI, which is completely uncharacteristic of Spielberg's films since Jurassic Park.

[Koray Savas]

Lucas bashing seems to be a new/old/whatever sport on this board, so sad...

The success proves that Lucas was right in the end. He just had another vision than the general fandom. Without him Starwars would be nothing and he was damn right to attract the children again with Episode 1. Jarjar needed to be there to get another generation of CHILDREN to enjoy the saga in a not super serious way and to detract from the darker parts of the movie. The prequels were hugely successful, created millions of new starwars fans and got us three amazing JW scores
KOTCS had 5 minutes of cringeworthy material but the rest was a GREAT, old fashioned adventure movie. Something that doesn't exist anymore.. and we also got another good JW score

So what the hell are you crying about all the time, give the man a rest. George did very well in the end. Starwars lives and prospers and all thanks to him...
KOTCS doesn't fuck anything up nor do the prequels, they are just different from your own expectations

Star Wars doesn't live and prosper. It's buried away in George Lucas' vault. The prequels may have been successful, but they're perfect examples of how not to make a film.

[Chaac]

The success proves that Lucas was right in the end. He just had another vision than the general fandom. Without him Starwars would be nothing and he was damn right to attract the children again with Episode 1. Jarjar needed to be there to get another generation of CHILDREN to enjoy the saga in a not super serious way and to detract from the darker parts of the movie.

I was seven and I don't even remember seeing it at the cinema. I do remember seeing the original trilogy on TV, and recording them and seeing them again like mad.

Star Wars is a kids saga. The great thing is that it was a huge fantasy live action saga for kids that treated its audience with a respect unheard of. Jar Jar, to me, is a poorly designed character. And he wasn't needed because the "darker" political plot wasn't needed in the first place, not to mention it makes no sense. And the presence of this in the film is a problem way more important than Jar Jar, who in the end it only serves a purpose of getting the Jedi to the underwater city and nothing else. Even if there was a reason the character is there, he's hardly developed. What do we know about him other than he is dumb?

KOTCS had 5 minutes of cringeworthy material but the rest was a GREAT, old fashioned adventure movie. Something that doesn't exist anymore.. and we also got another good JW score.

Except many great "old fashioned" adventure films had great scripts and special effects.

So what the hell are you crying about all the time, give the man a rest.

We are not crying, we try to put the man in a different perspective from yours.

[Joey]

Lucas bashing seems to be a new/old/whatever sport on this board, so sad...

The success proves that Lucas was right in the end. He just had another vision than the general fandom. Without him Starwars would be nothing and he was damn right to attract the children again with Episode 1. Jarjar needed to be there to get another generation of CHILDREN to enjoy the saga in a not super serious way and to detract from the darker parts of the movie. The prequels were hugely successful, created millions of new starwars fans and got us three amazing JW scores
KOTCS had 5 minutes of cringeworthy material but the rest was a GREAT, old fashioned adventure movie. Something that doesn't exist anymore.. and we also got another good JW score

So what the hell are you crying about all the time, give the man a rest. George did very well in the end. Starwars lives and prospers and all thanks to him...
KOTCS doesn't fuck anything up nor do the prequels, they are just different from your own expectations

everything that is wrong with Star Wars is wrong with this post.


Happy Birthday Raiders

[Mark Olivarez]

Star Wars isn't just a kids saga, it's something that many adults loved as well.

[Chaac]

Star Wars isn't just a kids saga, it's something that many adults loved as well.

I don't mean it as if it's only directed at kids, but that what it tells, and how it tells it, might have its greatest possible impact on that demographic.

[crocodile]

Back to the main topic... They're not going to make this one... are they?

Karol

[Quint]

I'm disappointed they haven't made more of the 30th anniversary. Such a revolutionary film is deserving of celebration after all these decades.

[Mr. Breathmask]

Lucas bashing seems to be a new/old/whatever sport on this board, so sad...

The success proves that Lucas was right in the end. He just had another vision than the general fandom. Without him Starwars would be nothing and he was damn right to attract the children again with Episode 1. Jarjar needed to be there to get another generation of CHILDREN to enjoy the saga in a not super serious way and to detract from the darker parts of the movie. The prequels were hugely successful, created millions of new starwars fans and got us three amazing JW scores
KOTCS had 5 minutes of cringeworthy material but the rest was a GREAT, old fashioned adventure movie. Something that doesn't exist anymore.. and we also got another good JW score

So what the hell are you crying about all the time, give the man a rest. George did very well in the end. Starwars lives and prospers and all thanks to him...
KOTCS doesn't fuck anything up nor do the prequels, they are just different from your own expectations

What a silly post. Most of the complaints on the last page were directed towards Indy 4 as a movie. Not specifically towards Lucas. And who brought Star Wars into this anyway? Huh.

[SF1_freeze]

Well nothing in this post is silly and you know that. See my post as the result of reading 2 years of prequel and indy4 bashing which bugged me all the time till i had to post about it in this random thread. You probably don't share my opinion Mr.Breathmask (which is ok)... but please respect mine

Yeah the prequels don't really belong into this thread but hey, i can't stand the constant critizism against Indy4 and the prequels. Most of it is unfounded or lies in the eye of the beholder.
Of course Starwars is for adults too but TPM just was specifically aimed at getting the children and the youth of 99 interested into the starwars universe. That's the reason for the disappointments of most adult fans... of course the prequels could have been done better but which movies are really perfect? Only very very few come close.

There is no denying that there were some serious mistakes made on Indy4 but they were minor in the big picture. My biggest gripes are the stupid vine swinging sequence and the three waterfall drops. I guess you watched Indy4 much more often than me cause i didn't notice shitty CGI...
In which scenes is the cgi so shitty that it diminishes the film for you?

And concerning Indy5, i truly hope it gets made. Now that the aliens are out of the way the chance is high that we get another earthy or religious macguffin which will result in a better movie.
I would still love to see "Indiana Jones and the Search for Atlantis".

[Stefancos]

Very few movies are perfect. Also very few movies as as ineptly made is the prequels.

[Richard Penna]

The point where Indy 4 dropped several notches for me was the final throne room/saucer scene. Everything about Irina's demise, the aliens coming to life, and then the spinning/collapsing room was a mess of plastic-looking CGI.

Up to that point it wasn't a bad movie really; it just didn't feel like Indy.

Bad GGI takes me out of a movie. Can't help it.

[Quint]

My biggest gripe with Indy IV isn't the Tarzan bit, or the nuke bit (which i like), or the fake looking mobile swordfight. My biggest gripe is that it's just a bit of a mess. It is a very poorly made movie.

And I talk about Indy IV now as someone who recently made his peace with it.

[Mark Olivarez]

The point where Indy 4 dropped several notches for me was the final throne room/saucer scene. Everything about Irina's demise, the aliens coming to life, and then the spinning/collapsing room was a mess of plastic-looking CGI.

Up to that point it wasn't a bad movie really; it just didn't feel like Indy.

Bad GGI takes me out of a movie. Can't help it.

Plus the fact that most of that sequence appeared to be almost a copy of the endings to The Mummy and The Mummy Returns.

[Stefancos]

Yeah that was the biggest problem. also the character of Mac was a copy of the Benny character from the Mummy.

[Quint]

Funny (and pathetic) how Indy ended up copying from a series which has always tried to replicate it.

[Mark Olivarez]

And the sad thing is that they had almost 20 years to get a good script and they failed.

[Elmo Lewis]

The point where Indy 4 dropped several notches for me was the final throne room/saucer scene. Everything about Irina's demise, the aliens coming to life, and then the spinning/collapsing room was a mess of plastic-looking CGI.

That's also the point where you realize that Indy is just going through the motions of his artifact-gonna-kill-my-villain cliché, acting as if there is nothing at stake (which there isn't, really) and the the whole thing hits you as either ultimately pointless or childishly ridiculous.

[Delorean90]

My big 3 issues with KOTCS:

1. The family reunion needed humor, yes, but in the film it overtook the whole proceedings, leaving none of the sensitivity or respect for the characters that strengthened Raiders and Last Crusade in that regard.

2. When the cinematography is on, it's really on--see the Chauchilla graveyard and much of the Orellana's cradle sequence--but so often it lacks the richness and detail of Slocombe's work, and ends up giving a certain digital look despite the fact that it was shot on film, with the jungle chase and waterfall sequence being some top offenders. The "shooting next to the surface of the sun" look is just not Indy.

3. Act Three needed more tension--for starters, if the waterfall scene had been a serious set piece where they were really trying to get away and succeeded, and the warriors hadn't been dealt with so handily, you might have a start.

[Koray Savas]

Very few movies are perfect. Also very few movies as as ineptly made is the prequels.

Bingo.

[Mr. Breathmask]

Well nothing in this post is silly and you know that. See my post as the result of reading 2 years of prequel and indy4 bashing which bugged me all the time till i had to post about it in this random thread. You probably don't share my opinion Mr.Breathmask (which is ok)... but please respect mine

Well, you threw me off there by bringing Star Wars into it out of nowhere in some sort of "leave George Lucas alone!!!!!!11" fashion, so don't expect not to get a response there.

Of course Starwars is for adults too but TPM just was specifically aimed at getting the children and the youth of 99 interested into the starwars universe. That's the reason for the disappointments of most adult fans...

Which was a dumb thing to do, in my opinion. The Star Wars trilogy were well-loved classics by the time TPM went into development, loved by parents and children alike. But the fact that kids like a certain movie doesn't mean it's a kids' movie. They made that mistake with TPM, which was indeed squarely aimed at children (completely misjudging this film's main target audience). They then spent the next two movies trying to correct this, until they ended up with the first PG-13 Star Wars movie where the film's hero (is he really, though?) goes on a killing spree, mercilessly slaughtering everyone from tradespeople to six year-olds (only to end up dismembered and burnt to a crisp himself). Kids movie? Whaaaaah?

That's one of the things that went wrong with the prequel trilogy and it doesn't even have anything to do with the filmmaking and storytelling in these movies (which I refuse to go into here, because then this whole thing will go on forever).

I guess you watched Indy4 much more often than me cause i didn't notice shitty CGI...
In which scenes is the cgi so shitty that it diminishes the film for you?

I'm not sure if this was at me, or at someone else, since I didn't mention the Indy CGI at all.

But if you must know, the visual effects bit that bothers me most about KotCS is the sword fight during the jungle chase. This chase, which looks like it's supposed to be a throwback to the desert chase from Raiders quickly dissolves into moment after moment of pushing our suspense of disbelief.

Look at Raiders. It's dusty, it's rough, you cringe every time Indy takes a punch. You can feel the danger. Sure, there's some stuff that only happens in movies (being thrown through the windshield, yet still managing to hang onto the front of the truck), but when it happens, it sure doesn't look painless. There's still some sort of physics that resemble the real world at work. Seriously, Indy gets the shit kicked out of him in that movie.

Now look at KotCS. They're swordfighting atop two seperate vehicles, moving through a frickin' jungle at high speed! The fuck? I'm no longer just watching an exciting chase, or even if I take myself out of the experience of watching the movie as an audience member, in awe of the great stuntwork. I'm just wondering why the hell they're doing all this elaborate sword twirling, istead of beating the crap out of each other. It's not even awful because it's shot on a soundstage, it's awful because it's bullshit.

By comparison, the motorcycle chase earlier in the film is a lot more fun, because - while it also has some questionable physics - it's all real stunts. It feels real. It's too bad it ends with what I find the single most offensive moment in the entire film: the decapitation of Denholm Elliott. Seriously. What. The. Fuck?

Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is part throwback to the 1950's pulp movies (much like Raiders was to the 1930's serials). Except they ended up putting the whole thing in environments that harken back to the old Indy films. Jungles, ancient mystical artefacts, heathen tribes... It's just such an odd blend and it doesn't really work. I think they took a gamble, and it just didn't pay off. Sad, but it happens to the best of us. Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is torn between two goals and it ultimately fails in achieving either of them.

Honestly, if Spielberg and Lucas had gotten together to make a 1950's science-fiction throwback without Indiana Jones in it, I'm telling you we'd have a different movie now and one that would have been miles better for it. If Steven and George ever do make their love letter to the 1950's science fiction genre in the way Raiders of the Lost Ark was a love letter to the 1930's saturday matinee, I'll be first in line to see it.

[Stefancos]

Hurray for Mr. Breathymask thingy!

[crocodile]

I generally buy the 50's setting. After all every single Indy film is of a slightly different genre.

I said it before. All could be salvaged if not for the awful third act. And I'm not talking about aliens at all. It's just there isn't any conflict in there going on. Once the extended 20 minute sequence of ridiculous chases burns out, there is nothing left in this movie at all. Absolutely no tension. Indy is just a by-stander and he drags all these characters that have no impact on the plot whatsoever. They could just left the skull to Cate Blanchett earlier in the film and the ending would have beeen exactly the same. That's the problem.

As cheesy as it was, the Darabont's script was actually about something at this point. You know, love for Marion thing.

Karol

[Chaac]

Darabont's script was hilariously ridiculous. The final script is ridiculous as well, in a more boring way.

I lament they did nearly nothing with Spalko. She's the best designed villain of the whole saga, sexy and intimidating and the same time. As I read once, she should have made us believe she was going to kill Indiana Jones.

[crocodile]

But it had a story at least. The things you're probably referring to could have been changed. They were minor details. Koepp is lacking in structure, which is a much bigger flaw. And we don't even know which draft of Darabont script leaked. Maybe it was the early version. Who knows?

Karol

[Chaac]

Yes, that script had greater potential because it was technically better.

As I remember it, some changes:

-Change the plutonum thing at the beggining for something else.
-Loose useless characters.
-More work on the villains.
-Don't have Oxley being Tarzan.
-Loose the atomic bomb scene, I waaay prefer the hilarious museum scene instead. But change the golden idol to something else.
-Etc.

However, when I started to rewrite I used the final script as the first draft instead, because I felt it was more malleable. And I like Spalko.

[Quint]

As I've said before, the swordfight sequence would have been friggin' amazing if they had done it for real.

If they'd had bothered to look into it they'd have found two crazy muthas who would have agreed to do it and it would have been spectacular.

But no, it's cheaper (and safer) to do it inside of a computer.

[SF1_freeze]

Funny fact is that they filmed the sequence in the real jungle but added plants later on and the cliff is all cgi

[gkgyver]

Wait, they added digital plants to a jungle?

George Lucas: "Screw real life!"

[Chaac]

The presentation of the jungle in Crystal Skull is kind of lame. You never feel "in the jungle".

[Quint]

Funny fact is that they filmed the sequence in the real jungle but added plants later on and the cliff is all cgi

It is blatantly obvious though that during the sword fight Shia and Cate have been composited into the scene by way of computer "trickery". It looks as fake as the vine swinging.

Probably the worst special effects work since Zorro and his horse rode a train.

[crocodile]

Probably the worst special effects work since Zorro and his horse rode a train.

Speaking of which, I still see that shot at 2:03 in my nightmares.



Karol

[paleo]

Funny fact is that they filmed the sequence in the real jungle but added plants later on and the cliff is all cgi

Isn't that a little like recording a score with a real orchestra and then adding digitized samples of the same instruments later on?

[BloodBoal]

George Lucas Is Still Puzzling Over Indiana Jones 5

[gkgyver]

So they are actually doing this? I thought this talk of Indy 5 was more of a joke.

Who wants to bet on whether we'll first see Indy 5 or Jurassic Park 4?

[BloodBoal]

Why wouldn't they merge the two and make a film out of it: Indiana Jones and the T-Rex's Golden Tooth, or some shit like that.

[gkgyver]

Indiana Jones and The Lost World.

[Michael]

Indiana Jones and The Lost World.

Actually, that's not such a bad idea! Conan Doyle's original story could fit perfectly adapted for Indy.