390 replies to this topic

[Prometheus]

You're not missing anything, it's literally just... a chord.

If anyone wants to, knock yourselves out:

could you get that to me in bmp, PDF or tif?

Trust me, the PDF doesn't look noticeably better. In nearly all cases, the ink Herb Spencer used hasn't aged well. Either that, or the scores have been kept in bad condition.

[Faleel]

You're not missing anything, it's literally just... a chord.

If anyone wants to, knock yourselves out:

could you get that to me in bmp, PDF or tif?

Trust me, the PDF doesn't look noticeably better. In nearly all cases, the ink Herb Spencer used hasn't aged well. Either that, or the scores have been kept in bad condition.

well the program I want to use to read the sheet music, only accepts PDF, BMP, or tif (or it could be because its resized)

[Datameister]

I'm wondering if most of the leaked scores are scans of photocopies, and it's the quality of the photocopies that's poor in the older manuscripts.

EDIT: Are you saying you were going to have the program scan the music and input it automatically, Faleel? I'd recommend doing it manually. With such a degraded image, it'd be very difficult for any program to recognize the notes. You'd spend more time correcting it than inputting the notes manually.

[Prometheus]

I'm wondering if most of the leaked scores are scans of photocopies, and it's the quality of the photocopies that's poor in the older manuscripts.

I have a hunch a lot of them might be microfilmed. It's not unheard for manuscripts kept in a poor condition (especially likely, since John Williams doesn't have an archive of his scores - except his personal collection which is probably engraved) to degrade, much like film stock.

Why I don't believe these are scanned, is that it's practically always the Spencer-orchestrated scores that are faint. Courage's suffer slightly, but not Neufield's, Morton's, or Pope's.

[Datameister]

The post-Spencer score scans are basically always in fine condition...you're right that Spencer's are particularly awful. Maybe it has something to do with the specific type of paper? I'm comparing (for instance) "The Book" and "The Rolling Ball" from Raiders. Both were orchestrated by Spencer; the latter is of typical quality, but the former is quite legible, and it's on manuscript paper that's more similar to the types found in later scores. I have no idea why that would be the case, but it's interesting. Al Woodbury's "Escape in the Alleys" manuscript was written on the same type of paper, and it's in similarly fine condition. The same trend can be found throughout that score.

Scans of Williams' sketches also tend to be quite horrendous, and not just because of his idiosyncratic handwriting. Sometimes better scans surface, though.

[Prometheus]

Yeah it's either the pen or the paper. Probably the paper. Judy Green's are some of the best.

[gkgyver]

Perhaps people can make a list of preferences what they'd like to hear?
Otherwise, it's poking around in the dark.

[Jason LeBlanc]

I actually was planning on doing just that! I'll try to post a list tomorrow otherwise hopefully Monday

[Prometheus]

JURASSIC PARK - End of incident at Isla Nublar (literally one sustained note), The Encased Mosquito, Meeting with Mr. Hammond, Cartoon Demonstration, You Bred Raptors, The History Lesson, (last few seconds of) An Ailing Monster, The Coming Storm, The Trouble With Dennis, The T-Rex Chase etc...)
THE LOST WORLD - (Datameister, did you a great job with the Finale files - but I demand higher quality!) Tonnes of unreleased stuff here. Some track into the film but most of it unused.
The first three Indy scores
OBSESSION
VERTIGO
THE BRIDE WORE BLACK
CAPE FEAR
IT'S ALIVE!
THE OMEN

You could use Magix Audio Cleaning Lab to on the rips (PM me if you want the bootleg score in 320 kbps mp3s)

[Datameister]

THE LOST WORLD - (Datameister, did you a great job with the Finale files - but I demand higher quality!)

As do I. I think I'm done making Finale mockups. Trying to get some good sample libraries that I can use with my DAW of choice, REAPER. Hopefully I'll be able to create (and in some case re-create) some higher quality mockups before TOO long.

[gkgyver]

JURASSIC PARK - End of incident at Isla Nublar (literally one sustained note), The Encased Mosquito, Meeting with Mr. Hammond, Cartoon Demonstration, You Bred Raptors, The History Lesson, (last few seconds of) An Ailing Monster, The Coming Storm, The Trouble With Dennis, The T-Rex Chase etc...)
THE LOST WORLD - (Datameister, did you a great job with the Finale files - but I demand higher quality!) Tonnes of unreleased stuff here. Some track into the film but most of it unused.
The first three Indy scores
OBSESSION
VERTIGO
THE BRIDE WORE BLACK
CAPE FEAR
IT'S ALIVE!
THE OMEN

Uuh, yeah, I was more thinking of individual cues. I'm not gonna record entire scores.

Btw, about PoA: every instrument is notated in concert pitch, right? So the horns a fifth lower etc.

[Datameister]

Concert pitch means that the instruments aren't transposed. POA is a transposed score, like virtually all of Williams' orchestrators' manuscripts. So the horns would indeed be a fifth lower, the trumpets a major second lower, etc. With handwritten full scores for films, it's generally safe to assume that they're transposed, not in concert pitch, unless they actually say "concert score" at the top, as is sometimes the case with JNH scores, for instance. However, Williams sketches are always in concert pitch, and they don't say so.

Basically, when in doubt, pull out a cue that you've got the recording for, listen to it, and then play the part of a transposing instrument on piano. If the pitch matches, you're looking at a concert score - if you're off by a fifth or a whole step or whatever, then you're looking at a transposed score.

[gkgyver]

Or you can look at the score and see if there are significant disharmonies

[Datameister]

True.

[Prometheus]

JURASSIC PARK - End of incident at Isla Nublar (literally one sustained note), The Encased Mosquito, Meeting with Mr. Hammond, Cartoon Demonstration, You Bred Raptors, The History Lesson, (last few seconds of) An Ailing Monster, The Coming Storm, The Trouble With Dennis, The T-Rex Chase etc...)
THE LOST WORLD - (Datameister, did you a great job with the Finale files - but I demand higher quality!) Tonnes of unreleased stuff here. Some track into the film but most of it unused.
The first three Indy scores
OBSESSION
VERTIGO
THE BRIDE WORE BLACK
CAPE FEAR
IT'S ALIVE!
THE OMEN

Uuh, yeah, I was more thinking of individual cues. I'm not gonna record entire scores.

Don't worry, I meant the unreleased cues.

[Wojo]

Continuing Data's conversation, I would look at the key signatures of each part. If the key signature of a non-transposing instrument, like the flute in C, is Bb, then the instruments like clarinet, trumpet, and horn would show key signatures other than Bb in a transposed score. In a concert pitch score, everybody would be in Bb.

I'm spoiled because while I've been playing music in concert bands for 20 years, I play a non-transposing instrument, so I'm spoiled when it comes to transposing anything on the fly that's not an octave.

[Jason LeBlanc]

Here is my promised list of mockup candidates!


Priority 1 - Likely never even recorded, or recorded but isn't in the film or on CD/boots/video games

1975 - Jaws
1m6s Typewriter Chord

1984 - Indiana Jones and the Temple Of Doom
1m7/2m1 Through Chinatown [bars 52-55]
2m3b Snowbank Sweetener
5m1 Entrance Of The Boy King
5m2b Exchange Of Glances
9m2 Willy In The Fryer [this one is partially used in film, but is mostly missing]

1989 - Indiana Jones and the The Last Crusade
7m2 Insert #2
11m4/12m1 The Canyon Of The Crescent Moon [first minute of the cue only, the rest is in the film and on CD]
10m1 Insert 2
10m1 Insert 3
10m1 Insert A

1991 - Hook
13m2 To War!! [original bar 37ish section only]
15m2 The End Of Hook [bars 27-40]

1993 - Jurassic Park
9m2 The T-Rex Chase [sections from beginning and end missing from film]
12m2 Hungry Raptor [sections from beginning and end missing from film]

1997 - The Lost World
6M2-7M1 Pt I Up in a Basket [section missing from film only]
6M2-7M1 Pt II Up in a Basket
10M1 Rialto Ripples [sections missing from film only]
11M3-12M1 High Bar and Ceiling Tiles [sections missing from film only]
12M3 Ludlow's Speech [ending only]
12M5 Monster on the Loose [section missing in film only]
14M2 The Saving Dart [ending only]

2001 - Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
2m4 Insert Diagon Alley Reveal
Quidditch and the Great Gryffindor Victory

2002 - Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
1m1 Prologue: Book II [sections that weren't revised only]

2004 - Harry Potter and the Prisoner Of Azkaban
02 1M3A That's a Lie
03 1M4X Aunt Marge Points the Finger
10 1M9B Second Collision [ending only]
14 2M3 The Train to Hogwarts Version II
24 3MC Befriending the Hippogriff [last third of the cue]
30 3M7A Clown Out of the Cupboard [beginning only]
29 3M7X New Beginning
32 3M10 Remembering Mother
36 3ME The Great Hall Ceiling [ending only]
39 4M2 Quidditch 2004 [ending only]
40 4M2XV Choral Overlay
41 4M3+4 Enter Winter [first half]
42 4M3+4 New Woods Walk and Birds Flight [first half]
43 4M5 Map to Snow Scene
45 4M10 Brief Snow Scene [section at end]
48 4M14 Dueling the Dementor
49 4M14 Insert for Patronus Light
50 5M1 Buckbeak's Sentence [section at end]
51 5M2 Reading the Map [section near beginning]
52 5M2A Reveal Your Secret54 5M5 The Crystal Ball [section]
61 6M2 The Confrontation Scene [sections removed from film]
62 6M4 Sirius and Harry [last two thirds]
66 6M5AN First Frozen Lake
69 7M1A Saving Buckbeak [ending only]
72 7M2A String Overlay
73 7M3 Buckbeak Saves the Day [opening only]
78 7M7 Ext Whomping Willow
80 7M9 Lupin's Departure [opening only]
81 7M11 A New Broomstick

2005 - Revenge Of The Sith
1m4A "Get 'Em R-2!" [bars cut from film only]
4m6 I Am The Senate [ending only]
Revenge Of The Sith (DVD Version) [original opening only]

2005 - Memoirs Of A Geisha
Somebody other than me will have to figure out this one!





Priority 2 - Only available recording is in the film itself, probably covered by sound effects

1984 - Indiana Jones and the Temple Of Doom
2m2a Bar 34 Insert
2m2b Bar 76 Insert
2m4 The Indian Village
3m1 The Old Priest's Tale
3m2 The Child Returns
3m2a Alternate Beginning
5m1x The Emperor's Entrance
5m2a The First Supper
7m2 More Sacrifice
7m1a Sacrifice Sweetener
7m1d Percussion Sweetener - One
7m2d Percussion Sweetener - Two
7m3d Percussion Sweetener - Three
7m4/8m1 Insert
8m2 Moloram's Speech
8m3 The Evil Potion
9m1x Sacrifice Continued
11m1 Insert

1989 - Indiana Jones and the The Last Crusade
1m4-2m1x Sweetener
5m3 Intro
9m2 Final Ending
10m1 Insert 2
10m3-11m1 Insert 1
10m3-11m1 Insert 2

1991 - Hook
13m2 Insert Bar 37
13m3 Insert

1993 - Jurassic Park
1m1 Incident at Isla Nublar [final note only]
1m2 The Encased Mosquito
2m1 The Entrance of Mr. Hammond
3m3 Cartoon Demonstration
4m2 You Bred Raptors
5m1 The History Lesson
6m3 The Coming Storm
8m1 The Trouble with Dennis
9m2 The T-Rex Chase
11m1
12m2 Hungry Raptor

1997 - The Lost World
4M1 Fire at Camp
4M2 Corporate Choppers
5M2 Big Feet
5M3-6M1 Spilling Petrol
5M3-6M1 Pt II Horning In
6M2-7M1 Pt I Up in a Basket
7M2-8M1 Pain of Glass
8M2 Truck Stop [section dialed out of OST only]
8M3 Reading the Map
10M1 Rialto Ripples
11M3-12M1 High Bar and Ceiling Tiles
12M3 Ludlow's Speech
12M5 Monster on the Loose




Priority 3 - The recording has appeared on bootlegs

1989 - Indiana Jones and the The Last Crusade
2m3-3m1 Sinister Visitors
3m2a The Holy Grail
4m2 Beneath The Floors
6m2 Discussing The Book
6m2x New Ending
6m3
6m4 Market Source
8m2 Koeniggraetzer March
9m2 New Ending
10m1 Insert 1
10m1 Fix for Bar 65
12m2 The Penitent Man Will Pass

1991 - Hook
4M5-5M1 Revised Ending
9M4 Insert
13M1 Tink Grows Up
15m2 The End Of Hook




I'm sure this list isn't complete, please feel free to post other cues that we have sheet music for but not recordings of!

[fommes]

1993 - Jurassic Park
1m1 Incident at Isla Nublar [final note only]

I'm voting for this one.

[ggctuk]

Revenge Of The Sith (DVD Version) [original opening only]

There's something missing at the beginning besides a clean ending? Are you talking about those notes that appear directly before in the film, where Bail and Yoda speed off, or was there something else that they removed?

[Jason LeBlanc]

Williams revised the intro before it was recorded. The sheet music contains his original intro, which was possibly never recorded

[Datameister]

Continuing Data's conversation, I would look at the key signatures of each part. If the key signature of a non-transposing instrument, like the flute in C, is Bb, then the instruments like clarinet, trumpet, and horn would show key signatures other than Bb in a transposed score. In a concert pitch score, everybody would be in Bb.

This is useful in more traditional sheet music, but it actually doesn't help with film scores, which are generally written without any key signatures whatsoever. The accidentals are just written into each part as needed.

[Wojo]

I see.

[Prometheus]

Continuing Data's conversation, I would look at the key signatures of each part. If the key signature of a non-transposing instrument, like the flute in C, is Bb, then the instruments like clarinet, trumpet, and horn would show key signatures other than Bb in a transposed score. In a concert pitch score, everybody would be in Bb.

I wouldn't say that's always reliable, in my experience. A lot of composers and orchestrators (especially film scores) leave out key signatures for transposing instruments, and in general. Usually relying on accidentals.

Edit: Data got their first again. GOD DAMMIT!!

[Datameister]

Hey, at the beginning of the Williams-isms thread, you nailed a few of my points before I hit the Post button, so turnabout is fair play, sir!

[airmanjerm]

When I was engraving some of the Jaws cues I actually considered making a mock up of the Typewriter Chord cue, but it was really so unremarkable that I didn't. I mean, it's a swell chord and all, but that's really about it. If you're really interested though Jason I can pull all that back up and and make it.

[Jason LeBlanc]

Faleel was the one asking for it, not me

[airmanjerm]

Oh sorry Jason, just saw it on that list and assumed that had been you.

[Jason LeBlanc]

Well, I certainly wouldn't mind hearing it. The list, however, is simply a list of EVERYTHING we have sheet music for but not recordings of, regardless of "importance"

[Datameister]

All right, I don't think anyone else has done a mockup of this, so I gave it a shot! There are four bars (52-55) that are cut out of "Through Chinatown" in both the film AND the albums. As you can hear, they're quite similar to the four bars that come before them, which ARE in the film and albums. Note that the rather quiet staccato trumpet note at the very end is intentional - that's a sixteenth note that comes right before the downbeat. It sounds weird on its own like this, but if you get the timing right with the music that comes next, it sounds totally natural. Just don't try to line up that note with the downbeat, haha.

http://www.multiupload.com/WSYUNGYB5O

This is my first time using a DAW (Reaper) and a real sample library (EWQLSO) to make a mockup of unreleased music (as opposed to the sounds that come packaged with Finale), so while I'm quite happy with how it turned out, I'd definitely appreciate critiques.

[Jason LeBlanc]

Sounds good, looking forward to hearing it integrated with the rest of the cue. What is the timestamp where it would go in the original cue if I wanted to attempt the edit myself?

[Datameister]

Thanks! Let's see...in the Concord release, this would start at about 0:57, right before the trumpets come in and hold that note. Of course, that doesn't take into consideration the other two missing bits that can be taken from the DVD rip, so be careful there.

Also, here's the unused/unreleased beginning of "Good Guys Arrive" from ROTS. This one just replaces the tracked music from "Boys Into Battle."

http://www.multiupload.com/A47WCVSFQ1

EDIT: Actually, use this version instead. It sounds more natural when you edit the rest of the cue into it.

http://www.multiupload.com/CJN48KXGTP

[Stefancos]

How come you can post illegally obtained music here?

[Datameister]

The rules allow for the posting of fan-made mockups. You just can't post the actual recordings or sheet music or anything. EDIT: Of course, Jay did post a screenshot of half a page of sheet music, but your complaint didn't really seem directed at that.

[Jason LeBlanc]

We allow members to post their own mockups and recordings here. Why are you complaining?

[Stefancos]

A mock up, made from illegally obtained sheet music is just as illegal as putting up a link here to the leaked Harry Potter files.

[Jason LeBlanc]

Whatever. If you don't like it then stay out of the thread.

If you have a problem with the way I run the board then please take it up with my privately, and stop derailing threads. Thank you.

[Datameister]

Posting actual recordings is a much bigger threat to the industry than posting a few home-brewed demos, Steef. Also, what Jay said.

Also, use this version of "Good Guys Arrive" instead of the one I posted...I tweaked it so it would transition better into the rest of the cue.

http://www.multiupload.com/CJN48KXGTP

[ggctuk]

So, how do I open an RPP file?

[Datameister]

Oh, whoops! Hold on...okay, it's fixed. Should be a WAV file now.

[MrJosh]

I can't wait to get home and hear this!