150 replies to this topic

[Quint]

Publicist makes a very good point about the JW as of late, and I think this idea was alluded to above that as Jerry Goldsmiths scores became even more stratified and streamlined as he aged - Williams have become perhaps overly complicated which is not necessarily beneficial for the listener. For example, when Alan Silvestri scores a cartoon, it will be very intricate but won't have anywhere near the counterpoint and complexity of a JW score. As we all know, since the early 2000's and with the influence of Remote Control Productions the trend has been toward minimalist film scores that give much information in as few notes as possible. Perhaps more and more you realise, as a great musician once said "Music is not so much about the notes as it is about the mind".

The ironic thing is JW is very capable of writing a more "easy listening" score like catch me if you can or terminal. But as soon as the director says " Well, hmmm we need some chase music here" - JW reverts to what he knows; the mickey mouse, xylophone and woodwind runs. Prisoner of Azkaban is a notable exception as the music seems very much fresh and not forced. I believe it comes down to unity and, once again, keeping the action music direction relatively direct like he did in the 1980's; maybe we should blame Spielberg for not "challenging" JW to take path B instead of A.

Someone else who hasn't gotten the Tintin bug. Never mind, maybe next time.

I honestly feel very lucky to have fallen in love with this score; after the massive disappointment that was Indy IV. I've been waiting for a Tintin quality JW score since, well, The Phantom Menace. That's a bloody long time to wait. I feel for you guys who are still left wanting.

Actually that's a lie. I really think fuck 'em.

it's about time you made a public apology for the other threads where you bash Williams output of the last 10 years

Who, me?

I've always loved the man, KM. I just didn't click with any of his prequel trilogy stuff (besides TPM) or Potter, that's all. In fact the only time I think I've ever really "bashed" JW is for Indy IV. But maybe it's unfair to criticise someone for being completely disinterested in their work, I dunno.

[Josh500]

Because this is not the Josh500-Board but the JW DISCUSSION forum. People have different opinions on the subject so stop being whiny all the time because others do not join your 'i like everything like it is' chorus.

Ahhh, I said:

That's 100% personal opinion. And I disagree with you 90%. "The Terminal" is easy listening for you, and you don't like xylophone and woodwinds. OK, gotcha.

Why don't you quote EVERYTHING I said next time? I said that's 100% your opinion, and I agree only 10% with it. And then I just made a suggestion...

[Quint]

Josh, try not to be so touchy whenever someone strongly disagrees with you. You have a tendency to overreact. Pub's a good guy, he just likes healthy debate and his style is to swagger about a bit, which is never a bad thing where the company can sometimes threaten to be likened to wallpaper.

[Josh500]

Josh, try not to be so touchy whenever someone strongly disagrees with you. You have a tendency to overreacted. Pub's a good guy, he just likes healthy debate and his style is to swagger about a bit, which is never a bad thing where the company can sometimes threaten to be akin to wallpaper.

Actually my initial response was to lostinspace's post, but duly noted.

[Sandor]

There is really a division among John Williams fans: those who are foremost fans of his 'creative peak' and are constantly annoyed by the fact that Williams hasn't written anything on par with Jaws, Superman or The Empire Strikes Back since 1982 and those who are fans of John Williams, the composer he was before, during and after his creative peak.

I for one acknowledge that artists in general experience a creative peak at one point during their careers. Williams definately has had his. But since (post E.T.) Williams has written many excellent scores and somehow always knows how to differentiate himself from other composers working in the industry. Scores like Sleepers, Angela's Ashes or Tintin are 100% Williams scores (yet very diverse) and I find much enjoyment in basically all his output, even if he leans on gimicks at times. Being a 'fan' is not a word to me; it's a principle.

If I had been dissapointed with Williams for more than two decades already, I would have cherished my Star Wars and Raiders soundtracks and would have looked for other things to invest time in. Not saying there is no place for negativity or criticism here; just that some have taken it to a certain extreme which I don't understand anymore. Feels like a big waste of time to me.

[Josh500]

There is really a division among John Williams fans: those who are foremost fans of his 'creative peak' and are constantly annoyed by the fact that Williams hasn't written anything on par with Jaws, Superman or The Empire Strikes Back since 1982 and those who are fans of John Williams, the composer he was before, during and after his creative peak.

Roald, with respect, that's not the division among JW fans.

We disagree on when JW's creative peak actually was . . . or is.

[Sandor]

There is really a division among John Williams fans: those who are foremost fans of his 'creative peak' and are constantly annoyed by the fact that Williams hasn't written anything on par with Jaws, Superman or The Empire Strikes Back since 1982 and those who are fans of John Williams, the composer he was before, during and after his creative peak.

Roald, with respect, that's not the division among JW fans.

We disagree on when JW's creative peak actually was . . . or is.

Creative peak: from Jaws (1975) to E.T. (1982). That's a fact.

[Josh500]

Many think his peak was in the 80s (E.T., Raiders, ToD, Empire, etc.)

Some think it was in the 90s (Hook, Jurassic Park, Schindler's List, TPM, etc.)

And still others think it was in the 00s (A.I., Harry Potter, Memoirs, etc.)

And then there are those who think he's been at his peak ever since the 80s... or the 90s...

Creative peak: from Jaws (1975) to E.T. (1982). That's a fact.

For you, yes.

For me, no.

[Chaac]

There is really a division among John Williams fans: those who are foremost fans of his 'creative peak' and are constantly annoyed by the fact that Williams hasn't written anything on par with Jaws, Superman or The Empire Strikes Back since 1982 and those who are fans of John Williams, the composer he was before, during and after his creative peak.

Roald, with respect, that's not the division among JW fans.

We disagree on when JW's creative peak actually was . . . or is.

Creative peak: from Jaws (1975) to E.T. (1982). That's a fact.

No, from Jane Eyre to Temple of Doom!

Even though what I really think is that JW's "creative peaks" just go up and down and up and down.

[Sandor]

Many think his peak was in the 80s (E.T., Raiders, ToD, Empire, etc.)

Some think it was in the 90s (Hook, Jurassic Park, Schindler's List, TPM, etc.)

And still others think it was in the 00s (A.I., Harry Potter, Memoirs, etc.)

And then there are those who think he's been at his peak ever since the 80s...

Creative peak: from Jaws (1975) to E.T. (1982). That's a fact.

For you, yes.

For me, no.

He peaked throughout his career with great scores (The Reivers, Hook, JP, HP, etc.)

But Jaws, CE3K, SW, Superman, ESB, Raiders and E.T. are seven truly classic, perfect scores that were written in a seven year period. For me; his biggest and most impactful creative peak.

[Josh500]

I am tending to believe that he's been at his peak ever since Jaws ... sure there are some up and downs in his career (right after Schindler's List, for example) but that may have been because he chose rather medicore projects... and not because his creative power was in decline...

He peaked throughout his career with great scores (The Reivers, Hook, JP, HP, etc.)

That I agree with you.

But Jaws, CE3K, SW, Superman, ESB, Raiders and E.T. are seven truly classic, perfect scores that were written in a seven year period. For me; his biggest and most impactful creative peak.

Yes, exactly. For you.

[Romão]

The only objective reasoning is that the period from 1975 to 1984 was his comercial peak. But hardly his artistic peak, IMHO

[publicist]

I for one acknowledge that artists in general experience a creative peak at one point during their careers. Williams definately has had his. But since (post E.T.) Williams has written many excellent scores and somehow always knows how to differentiate himself from other composers working in the industry. Scores like Sleepers, Angela's Ashes or Tintin are 100% Williams scores (yet very diverse) and I find much enjoyment in basically all his output, even if he leans on gimicks at times. Being a 'fan' is not a word to me; it's a principle.

I even welcome the dramatic scores much more than the new TINTIN's, as those never reach the heights of ESB or TOD, anyway. I'd say the last time i really felt a JW spine-tingler was when i listened to Filmtracks' audio clip of the LEAVING INGRID cue from SEVEN YEARS IN TIBET, because the doomed romance of the melody let loose at this time had no equivalent in his oeuvre (funny enough, it's a french-sounding theme for an austrian in the Himalaya). So i wouldn't say i belong into either 'creative peak' category. What i do belong to is the school of well-tempered critical distance to an object of affection, pretentious as this may sound. And this somehow never sits too well when the big new release jubilee choruses are intoned (so close to x-mas, too!).

The only objective reasoning is that the period from 1975 to 1984 was his comercial peak. But hardly his artistic peak, IMHO

You and your ART!

[Pasi Tiitinen]

Because this is not the Josh500-Board but the JW DISCUSSION forum. People have different opinions on the subject so stop being whiny all the time because others do not join your 'i like everything like it is' chorus.

This is the JW DISCUSSION forum, where 68% of the members don't like anything JW wrote for the last
two decades. 27 % don't like anything he ever wrote. Oh, maybe Star Wars.

[Sandor]

I'd say the last time i really felt a JW spine-tingler was when i listened to Filmtracks' audio clip of the LEAVING INGRID cue from SEVEN YEARS IN TIBET, because the doomed romance of the melody let loose at this time had no equivalent in his oeuvre (funny enough, it's a french-sounding theme for an austrian in the Himalaya).

That was 1997 then... I'm glad I felt a 'JW spine-tingler' from his following scores many times afterwards as well...

[Hlao-roo]

Publicist makes a very good point about the JW as of late, and I think this idea was alluded to above that as Jerry Goldsmiths scores became even more stratified and streamlined as he aged - Williams have become perhaps overly complicated which is not necessarily beneficial for the listener.

I think it's greatly overstating the case to say that Williams' scores have become "perhaps overly complicated." War Horse has its intricacies, as all Williams scores do, but his general compositional approach to scoring the emotional and pastoral aspects of the film (and even some of the action) was to write as accessibly and directly as possible.

And, by the way, if Williams ever writes anything as dazzlingly complex as "Battle in the Snow" again, I would be delighted. "The Chase Through Coruscant" definitely has its moments, but it has a tendency to ramble and get bogged down in oh-too-familiar mannerisms.

I'd say the last time i really felt a JW spine-tingler was when i listened to Filmtracks' audio clip of the LEAVING INGRID cue from SEVEN YEARS IN TIBET, because the doomed romance of the melody let loose at this time had no equivalent in his oeuvre (funny enough, it's a french-sounding theme for an austrian in the Himalaya).

That was 1997 then... I'm glad I felt a 'JW spine-tingler' from his following scores many times afterwards as well...

1997 was a really interesting year to be Williams fan, regardless of how successful you felt Williams was in the end.

[publicist]

This is the JW DISCUSSION forum, where 68% of the members don't like anything JW wrote for the last
two decades. 27 % don't like anything he ever wrote. Oh, maybe Star Wars.

Go crying, then.

[Romão]

4 completely different scores and all of them showed a new side of Williams. As you said, it was truly one of his most interesting years

The only objective reasoning is that the period from 1975 to 1984 was his comercial peak. But hardly his artistic peak, IMHO

You and your ART!

I'm gonna stop using the word because I'm not sure anymore what it means

[Hlao-roo]

We should start using the word magic instead of art.

[Pasi Tiitinen]

Go crying, then.

Why would I cry?. Just find all of this funny.

But I am going to join the FC Barcelona fanclub and tell them how the team sucks
In the 80's they played better.
.

[publicist]

Why would I cry?. Just find all of this funny.

But I am going to join the FC Barcelona fanclub and tell them how the team sucks
In the 80's they played better.

At least there will be a lively discussion following.

[Sandor]

Why would I cry?. Just find all of this funny.

But I am going to join the FC Barcelona fanclub and tell them how the team sucks
In the 80's they played better.

At least there will be a lively discussion following.

I would also be a bit pathetic really,,,,

[Hlao-roo]

I'd say the last time i really felt a JW spine-tingler was when i listened to Filmtracks' audio clip

Not something you read everyday.

[Stefancos]

The current FC Barcelona is the best there has ever been.

[publicist]

I'd say the last time i really felt a JW spine-tingler was when i listened to Filmtracks' audio clip

Not something you read everyday.

They had the TIBET and THE EDGE on the same day and i was happy as a clam.

[lostinspace]

"That's 100% personal opinion. And I disagree with you 90%. "The Terminal" is easy listening for you, and you don't like xylophone and woodwinds. OK, gotcha."

Sure is! But seriously, don't we all agree that the xylophone doubling woodwinds in syncopated "off the beat" (if your a musician you'll know what I mean ;-) ) padding is overused - and I mean the upper woodwind doubling not the style in Star Wars where he doubles trumpets and xylophone. Goldsmith was one of the composers who mastered the skill of "less is more" orchestration - by this I mean not having too many counterpoint lines. The adventure films of the 1980's weren't as complex as what JW writes now.

I think it's greatly overstating the case to say that Williams' scores have become "perhaps overly complicated."

I agree war horse is not overly complex but the new Indiana Jones definitely has more notes in it than any of the others. Same with Parts of Minority Report and Tintin ( I'll excuse Tintin though because it's a cartoon and mickey mouse music is ok).

[gkgyver]

Roald, with respect, that's not the division among JW fans.

We disagree on when JW's creative peak actually was . . . or is.

On JW's lowest peak you can spit from 3000 feet above on John Powell's highest summit.

[publicist]

And both pee on Bamberg and its petty inhabitants, so what's the point?

[Incanus]

We should really start a petition to rename Mount Everest as John Williams' Creative Peak.

[Josh500]

Interesting conversation (oddly named "I Was Wrong").

"That's 100% personal opinion. And I disagree with you 90%. "The Terminal" is easy listening for you, and you don't like xylophone and woodwinds. OK, gotcha."

Sure is! But seriously, don't we all agree that the xylophone doubling woodwinds in syncopated "off the beat" (if your a musician you'll know what I mean ;-) ) padding is overused - and I mean the upper woodwind doubling not the style in Star Wars where he doubles trumpets and xylophone. Goldsmith was one of the composers who mastered the skill of "less is more" orchestration - by this I mean not having too many counterpoint lines. The adventure films of the 1980's weren't as complex as what JW writes now.

I think it's greatly overstating the case to say that Williams' scores have become "perhaps overly complicated."

I agree war horse is not overly complex but the new Indiana Jones definitely has more notes in it than any of the others. Same with Parts of Minority Report and Tintin ( I'll excuse Tintin though because it's a cartoon and mickey mouse music is ok).

You know what? JW's scores are what they are, and I loved them for what they are.

Some people think Tintin's main theme is too simple, and they complain. Some others think the entire score of Tintin has too many notes, and they complain. JW cannot make EVERY listener happy, and that's fine. To each his own.

But I for one think most JW scores are perfect or close to perfection. The music always fits the movie very well. And that's the main thing, surely.

P.S. And I am not really sure why people keep harping on the xylophone, with so much going on in most pieces...

[lostinspace]

But I for one think most JW scores are perfect or close to perfection. The music always fits the movie very well. And that's the main thing, surely.

Exactly - they are there to serve the film first and foremost.

At the risk of getting to deep here the point I was trying to make is that having a really complex score (as JW is one of the few film composers capable of writing) does not mean it's better than Zimmer or Desplat or whatever. If there is one vibe I get reading this thread/forum it is that people see through all the complexity or masses of notes/counterpoint if it is there as filler or is technically brilliant but doesn't have much, for lack of a better word "soul"; people do like a good theme to hang onto aswell. For example, Indy IV was technically great as were parts of catch me if you can but failed to resonate with many listeners.... why?? I believe its because 1. the film may not be good (lack of inspiration) or simply because it's John Williams doing John Williams and not ultimately serving the film as best as possible. That is the difference between Temple of doom/Raiders and say Indy 4.

[Josh500]

Exactly - they are there to serve the film first and foremost.

And you are saying that that's somehow wrong?

At the risk of getting to deep here the point I was trying to make is that having a really complex score (as JW is one of the few film composers capable of writing) does not mean it's better than Zimmer or Desplat or whatever. If there is one vibe I get reading this thread/forum it is that people see through all the complexity or masses of notes/counterpoint if it is there as filler or is technically brilliant but doesn't have much, for lack of a better word "soul"; people do like a good theme to hang onto aswell. For example, Indy IV was technically great as were parts of catch me if you can but failed to resonate with many listeners.... why?? I believe its because 1. the film may not be good (lack of inspiration) or simply because it's John Williams doing John Williams and not ultimately serving the film as best as possible. That is the difference between Temple of doom/Raiders and say Indy 4.

Complex orchestration has little to do with whether a piece of music (or an entire score) is good or not, of course. And no one said that. It's true JW writes very complex pieces, no question, but for me--and many others--these also speak to the heart. In other words, many JW pieces--whether complex or not--are very emotional as well, depending on the scene they accompany.

Indy 4 is just one example. Don't speak in general terms if you only bring up Indy 4 (admittedly one of his weaker works) and "parts of CMIYC" as examples!

[lostinspace]

"Complex orchestration"

No, complex does not necessarily mean complex orchestration. When I say complex I mean many harmonic/melodic lines happening simultaneously. For example Everybody Runs from Minority Report is not complex - although it may sound so there are only 3 melodic ideas. Complex is like Whirl thu Acadame form IJ4.

Anyway, I could bring up many examples of where there are many many notes.......Some examples
Pre Crime to Rescue - Minority Report
Andertons Great Escape

and as you mentioned a lot of IJ 4 and Tintin

My 2cents is that the themes and ideas in these pieces is great but the melodic lines could me simplified or eliminated particularly over used of woodwind runs and jerky transistions, Goldsmith was better at transitions I believe.

[publicist]

My 2cents is that the themes and ideas in these pieces is great but the melodic lines could me simplified or eliminated particularly over used of woodwind runs and jerky transistions, Goldsmith was better at transitions I believe.

Goldsmith, for all the faults of his later work, was the champion of getting the point across without much window dressing. The difference seems to be that one worked exclusively for movies of any genre (and quality!), the other one does them but has an arguably more important musical life outside L. A. I guess that JG knew exactly with whom he competed (Zimmer and cohorts), while Williams never saw anything like ARMAGEDDON and THE ROCK (Goldsmith even commented on ARMAGEDDON once).

Whatever point i'm trying to make, it seems that Williams finds cues like ACADEME logical - it's his musical idea of what an action cue sounds like since the late 90s and it springs from a musical mind more concerned with 'serious' music and its construction. I'd love to ask him if he thinks that stuff like the DESERT CHASE is inferior to his recent writing because of its musical straightforwardness.

[Quint]

I doubt it. It was one of Spielberg's selections in the recent TCM Masterclass thingy and I got the impression John had no issues with it at all. If anything he looked pleased.

[Josh500]

My 2cents is that the themes and ideas in these pieces is great but the melodic lines could me simplified or eliminated particularly over used of woodwind runs and jerky transistions, Goldsmith was better at transitions I believe.

We just have differing tastes, is all.

[Quint]

Josh he said, "I believe" at the end of his sentence you touchy tithead!

For gods sake just give it a rest for once.

[publicist]

I doubt it. It was one of Spielberg's selections in the recent TCM Masterclass thingy and I got the impression John had no issues with it at all. If anything he looked pleased.

Well, that would be my guess, so maybe it's really the different approach to moviemaking/cutting he reacts to.

[Josh500]

Josh he said, "I believe" at the end of his sentence you touchy tithead!

For gods sake just give it a rest for once.

Yes, he did. I overlooked that! And I changed my response accordingly

God, I am wasted this morning...

And yeah, like you aren't a touchy arse when you kept going on and on about xxx back when we were trying to enjoy the music! (You know what I mean.)

[publicist]

If Williams ever needs a imperturbable soldier, i know whom to send.