101 replies to this topic

[Chaac]

I'm not a smartass, and I think you avoided it.

Sometimes I think I'm the only person on this planet that tries to make a difference between what's good and what I like...

[Ricard]

I'm not a smartass, and I think you avoided it.

Please tell me why you think I avoided it.

Sometimes I think I'm the only person on this planet that tries to make a difference between what's good and what I like...

You can't be more wrong. Most people think there's a difference between what's good and what they like. To me there's no difference.

[Chaac]

I'm not a smartass, and I think you avoided it.

Please tell me why you think I avoided it.

Because you said they're mediocre because they're not great. Huh.

And I wanted some music stuff, in there! Because I haven't been thinking on musical terms at any point on this thread, just on the level of what I was enjoying to listen to.

[Blumenkohl]

I'm not a smartass, and I think you avoided it.

Please tell me why you think I avoided it.

Sometimes I think I'm the only person on this planet that tries to make a difference between what's good and what I like...

You can't be more wrong. Most people think there's a difference between what's good and what they like. To me there's no difference.

So what you're saying is that your tastes align with objective quality? Interesting.

[Ricard]

Because I haven't been thinking on musical terms at any point on this thread, just on the level of what I was enjoying to listen to.

That is exactly my case, and I like it as it is.

So what you're saying is that your tastes align with objective quality? Interesting.

There's no such thing as objective quality in music.

[Blumenkohl]

So what you're saying is that your tastes align with objective quality? Interesting.

There's no such thing as objective quality in music.

I can agree with that.

[Chaac]

Because I haven't been thinking on musical terms at any point on this thread, just on the level of what I was enjoying to listen to.

That is exactly my case, and I like it as it is.

Ah ok. You don't like it much, whatever. I thought there was something else.

[Ricard]

Ah ok. You don't like it much, whatever. I thought there was something else.

Like what? A detailed description of what I feel when I listen to those themes? Because that's what it all comes down to: our emotional response. I'm not judging the whole score, just its melodic basis.

[Chaac]

No no no, I thought you were thinking on some technical musical thingie when you said they were mediocre, that's why I asked in the first place. Nevermind.

[Blumenkohl]

Stuff like this reminds me of The Collected Works of Shakespeare vs. A Phone Book debates.

[Mr Big]

I'm not really a fan of the Tintin themes. Even The Unicorn Theme sounds sort of generic (As someone else on the forum pointed out) but they are so well integrated all throughout the score that it's hard not to appreciate them.
War Horse, on the other hand has fantastic themes that are presented in more straightforward and satisfying ways.
Tintin is probably the superior score on a technical level but I still prefer War Horse because it's more emotionally satisfying.

[Ricard]

No no no, I thought you were thinking on some technical musical thingie when you said they were mediocre, that's why I asked in the first place. Nevermind.

But John Williams is technically brillant. Just not as inspired as he used to be.

[Blumenkohl]

No no no, I thought you were thinking on some technical musical thingie when you said they were mediocre, that's why I asked in the first place. Nevermind.

But John Williams is technically brillant. Just not as inspired as he used to be.

Tintin I might give you a wee bit of leeway.

But he certainly made an exception for War Horse.

[Hlao-roo]

Most people think there's a difference between what's good and what they like. To me there's no difference.

I've had this debate with Ricard before.

[publicist]

Stuff like this reminds me of The Collected Works of Shakespeare vs. A Phone Book debates.

Yeah, both are a chore to sit through.

As for TINTIN vs. WAR HORSE deathmatch: Williams has written much better scores in TINTIN's genre, while WAR HORSE can certainly compete with FAR AND AWAY/THE RIVER/THE PATRIOT. Only if you avoid the comparison TINTIN can come out on top.

[king mark]

I disagree with Ricard that Tintin's Heroic theme is mediocre. It's great but underdeveloped. It's also a typical JW theme, not many other composes can do better

It's a bit like Mutt's Heroic theme in KotCS (the one that appears at the end of Jungle Chase and End Credits, not Adventures of Mutt) . Very cool and very underused in the score

[Hlao-roo]

WAR HORSE can certainly compete with FAR AND AWAY/THE RIVER/THE PATRIOT.

Yeah, but kind of the way the L.A. Clippers can "compete" with the rest of the NBA.

...oh wait, there is no NBA.

[Quint]

I love Tintin's heroic theme, but there isn't enough of it. The Unicorn theme sounds pretty generic to me actually

But they're both very similar. I'd even dare to say that they are both pretty mediocre. Yes, that's what I think.

Initially I felt somewhat felt the same, but after seeing the film I changed my mind. The experience had a VERY positive effect on my score listening pleasure in general, the Tintin motif (because that's all it is) began to click. The 'marriage' of imagery and music is very strong, the score shuttles the visual narrative along at a breakneck pace, it all feels like a score which has been tightly sewn into the scenes it's written for - it never once feels like an edited in hack job.

Now pretty much every bit of the score is wedged in my head.

The mark of a great JW score, I'd argue.

Then again, I know there's many here who couldn't give a shit about incidental bollocks like the successful pairing of imagery and music. For them it's all about the notes.

[publicist]

Yeah, but kind of the way the L.A. Clippers can "compete" with the rest of the NBA.

...oh wait, there is no NBA.

To quote INHERIT THE WIND, 'with that kind of attitude, who will come to your funeral?'

[TheUlyssesian]

I actually think Tintin's main theme is BRILLIANT. Its heroic but also positive and not dark, there's this faint touch of adventure and even the touch of Europe in the second 6 note phrase. I do actually bemoan the fact that there is not a concert arrangement. But the theme is very short, even its longest statement in Falcon is just 20 seconds long. It does not even have a secondary phrase I think. A concert arrangement might be very difficult. I think Haddock's theme can get a concert arrangement.

War Horse's themes can be easily arranged in concert arrangement and are fuller and more "sweeping". But purely comparing the scores on a technical level, Tintin is a marvel. The sheer dexterity of the music, or the fleet-fingeredness, the articulation (some call it mickey mousing), the speed, the dazzling orchestration renders it a much superior achievement.

Again complexity does not automatically mean superiority but take a track like Falcon, it is just so accomplished musically! A piece like that would be deathly challenging for a live orchestra to play at one of Williams' concerts. But the sweeping War Horse themes, the violinists will soar into them easily.

Tintin is written with very great skill. Not many composers can write such advanced music today I think. War Horse is very good but I'd say its the more crowd pleasing score and Tintin is slightly more esoteric.

[Pasi Tiitinen]

I agree with ds.

EDIT: I agree with TheUlyssesian.

[BloodBoal]

I actually think Tintin's main theme is BRILLIANT. Its heroic but also positive and not dark, there's this faint touch of adventure and even the touch of Europe in the second 6 note phrase.

OK, you're gonna have to develop that statement. What is European about those 6 notes?

[nightscape94]

Most people think there's a difference between what's good and what they like. To me there's no difference.

I've had this debate with Ricard before.

I actually think this type of debate is fun. Human beings, to a point at least, can determine what is objectively good or bad artistically. Like running things through a funnel. We would get to a point where the artistic factors are harder to argue and debate, and that's when it gets fun.. Your personal taste is great for your own enjoyment, but it's important for a society to improve its art, and to that end I believe it's important to recognize bad art in order to progress.

[publicist]

I actually think Tintin's main theme is BRILLIANT. Its heroic but also positive and not dark, there's this faint touch of adventure and even the touch of Europe in the second 6 note phrase.

OK, you're gonna have to develop that statement. What is European about those 6 notes?

He means russian.

[gkgyver]

So what you're saying is that your tastes align with objective quality? Interesting.

There's no such thing as objective quality in music.

So people claiming film music is going steadily downhill are completely insane?

Because, you know, if there is no objective quality, there is also no measuring stick for something going downhill.

[lostinspace]

I actually think Tintin's main theme is BRILLIANT. Its heroic but also positive and not dark, there's this faint touch of adventure and even the touch of Europe in the second 6 note phrase. I do actually bemoan the fact that there is not a concert arrangement. But the theme is very short, even its longest statement in Falcon is just 20 seconds long. It does not even have a secondary phrase I think. A concert arrangement might be very difficult. I think Haddock's theme can get a concert arrangement.

War Horse's themes can be easily arranged in concert arrangement and are fuller and more "sweeping". But purely comparing the scores on a technical level, Tintin is a marvel. The sheer dexterity of the music, or the fleet-fingeredness, the articulation (some call it mickey mousing), the speed, the dazzling orchestration renders it a much superior achievement.

Again complexity does not automatically mean superiority but take a track like Falcon, it is just so accomplished musically! A piece like that would be deathly challenging for a live orchestra to play at one of Williams' concerts. But the sweeping War Horse themes, the violinists will soar into them easily.

Tintin is written with very great skill. Not many composers can write such advanced music today I think. War Horse is very good but I'd say its the more crowd pleasing score and Tintin is slightly more esoteric.

Tintin is more functional than anything and I'm sure it works well with the picture. The problem I'm finding while I listen to Tintin is it is great technically but very unoriginal (apart from track 1 it is an uninspired effort) it's as if JW takes snippets from home alone, harry potter, indiana jones, (everybody runs from minority report) etc etc and added to them making them very technically brilliant but uninspired ie ( flute runs are from Harry potter and prisoner and Hook). That is to say that even the general public would say "It sounds similar to somthing I've heard in the past". It was mentioned above about the secret scroll theme sounding uninspired and I agree. If I'm honest I believe Williams could have done a lot beter "creatively"; maybe he felt a bit bored with this film. He has taken the predictable route and though the Pursuit of the Falcon and jazzy track 1 are great. I wouldn't score the other tracks that highly on listening experience. The general public don't care for too much complexity anyway.
''
I think there will be a chance War Horse will be nominated but probably won't win. IMHO Tintin though a technical masterpiece is too derivative.
It is sad to say it but I feel the last great movies JW scored were Munich and HPPOA. They feel like either Williams Struggled or he was asked to be more "creative" artistically. They are perhaps better scores than either War Horse or Tintin.

[publicist]

Well, familiarity doesn't necessarily breeds contempt. See relative original scores like ROSEWOOD pop up on many WORST-OF lists whereas very familiar scoring concepts like TINTIN or POTTER I inevitably are hoisted upon BEST-OF and Oscar lists.

It's just the way it is. And Williams is over 80 by now, so i cut him every slack for being not hungry for adventure anymore, it's a wonder a man of his age can produce scores as well-composed and technically impeccable. It's after all a very taxing job. As for award wins, neither is the most likely candidate. Both scores are very familiar Hollywood fare without any solo instrument highlighted or an european air of loftiness about them. I don't think TINTIN will win over US box office and with Scorsese's HUGO ranking high on critics lists, i don't think it has a chance. WAR HORSE could become a sentimental favourite, though. People like horses...

[Ricard]

So people claiming film music is going steadily downhill are completely insane?

No. I'm one of them. But that's just an opinion, not a fact.

[publicist]

So people claiming film music is going steadily downhill are completely insane?

No. I'm one of them. But that's just an opinion, not a fact.

Yeah, but in the end, it all boilds down to sophism and word-mongering. Their are of course sets of standards established in musical academia for the rating of music in the 21st century. Those are mainly there to establish a repertoire value - the 10,000st retro song recalling THE CLASH just cannot have the same significance because it's just pastiche, not the original. Ergo, it can be a solid song with inspirational traits, but cannot climb high on the 'repertoire' scale.

Nobody's saying you should frame those standards on your wall, but they are not going away only because some individuals don't like them.

[Ricard]

I agree. And they are necessary. But as you said, they're just... "standards".

[SF1_freeze]

I actually think Tintin's main theme is BRILLIANT. Its heroic but also positive and not dark, there's this faint touch of adventure and even the touch of Europe in the second 6 note phrase. I do actually bemoan the fact that there is not a concert arrangement. But the theme is very short, even its longest statement in Falcon is just 20 seconds long. It does not even have a secondary phrase I think. A concert arrangement might be very difficult. I think Haddock's theme can get a concert arrangement.

War Horse's themes can be easily arranged in concert arrangement and are fuller and more "sweeping". But purely comparing the scores on a technical level, Tintin is a marvel. The sheer dexterity of the music, or the fleet-fingeredness, the articulation (some call it mickey mousing), the speed, the dazzling orchestration renders it a much superior achievement.

Again complexity does not automatically mean superiority but take a track like Falcon, it is just so accomplished musically! A piece like that would be deathly challenging for a live orchestra to play at one of Williams' concerts. But the sweeping War Horse themes, the violinists will soar into them easily.

Tintin is written with very great skill. Not many composers can write such advanced music today I think. War Horse is very good but I'd say its the more crowd pleasing score and Tintin is slightly more esoteric.

Tintin is more functional than anything and I'm sure it works well with the picture. The problem I'm finding while I listen to Tintin is it is great technically but very unoriginal (apart from track 1 it is an uninspired effort) it's as if JW takes snippets from home alone, harry potter, indiana jones, (everybody runs from minority report) etc etc and added to them making them very technically brilliant but uninspired ie ( flute runs are from Harry potter and prisoner and Hook). That is to say that even the general public would say "It sounds similar to somthing I've heard in the past". It was mentioned above about the secret scroll theme sounding uninspired and I agree. If I'm honest I believe Williams could have done a lot beter "creatively"; maybe he felt a bit bored with this film. He has taken the predictable route and though the Pursuit of the Falcon and jazzy track 1 are great. I wouldn't score the other tracks that highly on listening experience. The general public don't care for too much complexity anyway.
''
I think there will be a chance War Horse will be nominated but probably won't win. IMHO Tintin though a technical masterpiece is too derivative.
It is sad to say it but I feel the last great movies JW scored were Munich and HPPOA. They feel like either Williams Struggled or he was asked to be more "creative" artistically. They are perhaps better scores than either War Horse or Tintin.

The problem is: We are at a point where JW has done pretty much every genre there is. So there will be always a in some respects similar score. But to say it is creatively uninspired to use a fast flute solo line "again" or to have a heroic theme for the title character "again" is completely unfair...

Or do you also think JW was creatively uninspired in Superman cause the heroic energy and orchestration of the main theme resembles the heroic Star Wars Main Theme / Luke's Theme?

[publicist]

Or do you also think JW was creatively uninspired in Superman cause the heroic energy and orchestration of the main theme resembles the heroic Star Wars Main Theme / Luke's Theme?

You answered your own question.

[SF1_freeze]

Or do you also think JW was creatively uninspired in Superman cause the heroic energy and orchestration of the main theme resembles the heroic Star Wars Main Theme / Luke's Theme?

You answered your own question.

How can i answer a question i didn't ask myself? My opinion, i don't think he was uninspired at all..

The "also" was not used as a phrase for "me and you all". The meaning was more or less if he, considering the recent problems he had with JW, in addition believes that Superman's main theme was uninspired...

[lostinspace]

Or do you also think JW was creatively uninspired in Superman cause the heroic energy and orchestration of the main theme resembles the heroic Star Wars Main Theme / Luke's Theme?

You answered your own question.

How can i answer a question i didn't ask myself? My opinion, i don't think he was uninspired at all..

The "also" was not used as a phrase for "me and you all". The meaning was more or less if he, considering the recent problems he had with JW, in addition believes that Superman's main theme was uninspired...

Of their era of 1970's Superman is a memorable masterpiece as is Star Wars. I know people confuse Superman and Star Wars themes but they were composed in the same year. I would cut Williams some slack. Neither is uninspired to me, although the instrumentation is the same the feel of Superman is different to star wars, perhaps not as memorable as the dozens of themes for Star Wars. They are both legendary themes that will live on!

For the most part I agree with you. JW has had an epic career if ever there was one. I am being picky but there are times where I know he must have been uninspired - like with the secret scroll theme, it is almost lifted out of harry potter star wars attack of clones ( see track one at 1:48) and
Now, I can't say that about much of the rest of the score - there are not many direct lifts from previous scores; they are like extensions to previous cues he has written. So when you get a track like Secret Scrolls it works but (to a jw fan) I'm sure JW is capable of better than just "what works". He never reused stuff to that extent in 2002 with star wars harry potter minority report and catch me if you can, which all sound fresh.

[indy4]

That clip from AotC is almost completely different than "SEcret of the Scrolls." The only similarity is the last two notes. The rest of the notes, the rhythm, the instrumentation, the tempo, the mood, the usage (I mean, the AotC clip isn't even a motif if I recall correctly) is completely different. If I looked hard enough I bet I could find that sort of similarity between a minor melody and any of JW's iconic themes.

If anything, "Secret of hte Scrolls" is similar to the theme from The Fury.

[Mr Big]

I'm starting to like Tintin more than War Horse. It's much more thematically dense than War Horse and therefore has more to discover.

[Pasi Tiitinen]

I'm starting to like Tintin more than War Horse. It's much more thematically dense than War Horse and therefore has more to discover.

Yes it is. War Horse is more easy in the beginning but Tintin's complex action cues will tickle you longer.

[Joey]

War Horse is a much better score in my opinion. TinTin screams Chamber of Secrets, but that's ok too. Maybe I'll like it more when and if I see the film.

[Pasi Tiitinen]

You obviously have to see the film.

[indy4]

War Horse is the best score of the year, but "The Adventures of Tintin" is the best cue of the year.