236 replies to this topic

[Richard Penna]

I don't remember if you've seen the film, KM, but if Picking Pockets had been included, I'm sure you'd be screaming murder that it was in place of a real score cue.

But yes, I would love the plane sequence to have been included.

I'm very happy with the OST presentation for War Horse - it flows very well. I'm unlikely to see the film any time soon, so I won't know what I'm missing, which is utter bliss in JW World.

[Incanus]

Do OSTs from other composers list the orchestrators?

As Karol pointed out, they frequently, if not most of the time, do. And the most salient example in my mind is Goldsmith, who, as far as I've heard, leaned as lightly on his orchestrators as Williams does.

I'm not questioning Williams's right to decide that his orchestrators, from an album perspective, have contributed nothing of significance to the music -- as the common explanation goes -- but I am genuinely curious about the line of reasoning he uses in choosing to omit their names.

Williams usually acknowledges the orchestrators in the film credits. I think it is Williams' way of saying that he is the sole author and creator of his music which is reinforced by not having the names of the orchestrators appear in the CD release credits.

Having seen the film and listened to the score over the past couple of days, the War Horse soundtrack is easily one of the best presentations of Williams's music in some time. It leaves out nothing major from the film and it is presented in almost full chronological order. From what I can tell, only one track is spliced together from multiple separate cues ("No Man's Land"). The rest of the album's tracks represent full cues, so do not worry about the excessive comma usage in the track titles. And there is only one place where the album does not sync with the film and it's relatively minor: Track 6 should be swapped with Track 5. Then if you move the dissonant first half of "No Man's Land" to before "Pulling the Canon," the soundtrack would be fully chronological.

That sounds like excellent news, since it means very little missing music. The War Horse album really flows well as it is though but it is nice to know that with little effort you can rearrange everything in chronological order.

[Josh500]

I think that's because, many ignorant listeners will think, when they read, for example "Orchestrated by Conrad Pope", etc. that JW wrote only the melodies while CP did the rest...

That's funny. I remember when I bought the Schindler's List soundtrack back in the day, my sister saw it and read the "Violin solos by Itzhak Perlman", and seriously thought that he wrote the solos.

Tim

Well, in a way, that's quite understandable to think so... I mean if you didn't know anything about John Williams, Itzhak Perlam, or just film music in general...

But I hope you enlightened her!

Well, as I predicted months ago it's Tintin that has the worst OST presentation of the 2

i don't care whatsoever about combined cues out of sequence and not in chronological order. It's unreleased OBVIOUS highlights (Portuguese Plane) that piss me off. It always boggles my mind Williams that leaves some of the more exciting cues off the OST

I'm not questioning Williams's right to decide that his orchestrators, from an album perspective, have contributed nothing of significance to the music -- as the common explanation goes -- but I am genuinely curious about the line of reasoning he uses in choosing to omit their names.

Because they don't really orchestrate anything . I thought that was cleared up by now.

Exactly! Or like I said:

I wondered about that too. JW's albums never list the orchestrators. I think that's because, many ignorant listeners will think, when they read, for example "Orchestrated by Conrad Pope", etc. that JW wrote only the melodies while CP did the rest...

[Hlao-roo]

Do OSTs from other composers list the orchestrators?

As Karol pointed out, they frequently, if not most of the time, do. And the most salient example in my mind is Goldsmith, who, as far as I've heard, leaned as lightly on his orchestrators as Williams does.

I'm not questioning Williams's right to decide that his orchestrators, from an album perspective, have contributed nothing of significance to the music -- as the common explanation goes -- but I am genuinely curious about the line of reasoning he uses in choosing to omit their names.

Williams usually acknowledges the orchestrators in the film credits. I think it is Williams' way of saying that he is the sole author and creator of his music which is reinforced by not having the names of the orchestrators appear in the CD release credits.

As I note above, I acknowledge the way in which Williams goes about choosing to attribute his orchestrators. I'm not Williams, and I'm hardly in a position to judge him, but ultimately my point is that if I had to err in one direction or the other, I would rather err on the side of giving my collaborators too much credit than too little -- a path Goldsmith seems to have chosen.

As I indicated earlier, it seems to me that a good compromise would be to credit them under a "thanks" or "special thanks" header.

[Romão]

Well, they do appear on the End Credits of the movie, don't they?

[Jason LeBlanc]

Sometimes but not always, and even then its some but not all of them. For example, a member posted that the end credits of "Tintin" does have an Orchestrators section but doesn't list Conrad Pope in it, even though we know for a fact he worked on it

[publicist]

Time to start the black book of ghost orchestrators. And i know who will be featured heavily in it...

[Michael]

Here's the anwser...

CC: I just had a quick look at the notes for the original Sony Classical release for Episode 1, but didn’t find your name there, unfortunately.

Conrad Pope: John’s point is that, he is the author of that music – fully and completely. When you take one of his albums, he is saying, “Look I am the architect of all the colors and you (the orchestrator) have just executed them.” And this makes perfect sense. I’m the same way.

CC: But you are credited in many of the film credits.

CP: Yes. You see, in the picture business the orchestration credit is a specific facet of the “picture” business NOT the “music” business. So John makes sure, once you have achieved a certain status with him, that you’ll get that credit in the picture, but not on the album.

http://www.tracksoun...interviewcp.htm

[Jason LeBlanc]

Interesting.

[king mark]

Hmm, makes Williams seem less like the humble guy he is publicly

[Charlie Brigden]

Did Pope moonlight with Zimmer or something?

[Joe Brausam]

No Man's Land must be one of the most masculine and driving action pieces that Williams has written in YEARS. Similarities to Zimmer be damned (though I agree it takes more from Goldsmith than Zimmer), this is one of the coolest things I've heard from Williams in a long time.

The whole score I just absolutely adore, but this is definitely one of the highlights.

[Blumenkohl]

Hmm, makes Williams seem less like the humble guy he is publicly

This has been a well known fact for nigh-on forever. He's a bit of a snob.

[Michael]

This has been a well known fact for nigh-on forever. He's a bit of a snob.

He's a bit of a snob when it comes to his music. Like Spielberg, you don't get where they are by being nice to everyone, you know?

[crocodile]

Similarities to Zimmer be damned (though I agree it takes more from Goldsmith than Zimmer), this is one of the coolest things I've heard from Williams in a long time.

These similarities I don't hear at all. It's more like drama Williams of the early nineties (Far and Away. JFK) to me.

Karol

[publicist]

NO MAN'S LAND sounds more like James Newton Howard (Hidalgo etc.) or James Horner (Samuel's Death/LotF). People are so fixated on Zimmer these days they'll find a similarity between HOME ALONE and PEARL HARBOR, for sure.

He's a bit of a snob when it comes to his music. Like Spielberg, you don't get where they are by being nice to everyone, you know?

Exactly. He will throw his weight around when he really wants something and his agency is powerful enough to sell his wishes. In a way, it's expected from someone within a certain power range, or the whole system would collapse.

[nightscape94]

With Williams, think of the orchestrator more as an Administrative Assistant than a collaborator.

[Sandor]

The truth is, the work of an orchestrator in the business can be very hard to define. On some scores, the orchestrator is as much an arranger as the composer is, if not more. The orchestrator certainly needs to be credited if this is the case.

With other composers, the orchestrator does little to no arranging since the score drafts from the composer are so detailed or the composer doesn't want the orchestrator to add anything substantial on a melodic or harmonic level. Basically the orchestrator does nothing creative, but is merely dissecting the composer's draft and creating sheets for the invidual instruments.

With Williams, the latter is the case. With other composers, the orchestrator actually deserves a co-composer credit. I think Williams wants to avoid confusion and prefers not to credit the orchestrators, because it is well known that his score drafts are incredibly fleshed out and detailed. He has every right to be proud of his great arranging skills and doesn't want to attribute this to anyone else.

[crocodile]

If he's an assistant or an orchestrator doesn't matter. If he had seen the manuscripts and at least transcribed them then it would be only decent to mention him in the "thank you" section. I mean, different people thank their kids and pets in there. Why not someone who actually had something to do with the music?

Karol

[Charlie Brigden]

I agree. Whether he/she's a glorified copyist or not, if he/she worked on the film/score they deserve some sort of credit. And the composer can make sure he has a credit that says "composed, conducted and arranged by".

[Sandor]

By that line of reasoning John Williams needs to thank hundreds of people who were involved... Now that would make a pretty boring booklet.

[crocodile]

Other composers do that and it doesn't make a difference. Goldsmith did it. Horner does, Silvestri does, Desplat does, all the MV crowd does it.

Karol

[Sandor]

Other composers do that and it doesn't make a difference. Goldsmith did it. Horner does, Silvestri does, Desplat does, all the MV crowd does it.

Karol

Just giving a possible explanation for Williams not crediting his orchestrators. Since Williams has a background as an orchestrator/arranger, he must be very well aware of the duties an orchestrator CAN fulfill. On some scores, the orchestrator is basically the arranger/co-composer of a score. On Williams scores, the orchestrator is - yes, yes - a copyist. Williams is the sole arranger and I guess he doesn't want people to think the 'orchestrator' made creative contributions to his music (like it happens all the time with other composers). Whether you agree with him is up to you.

[crocodile]

I understand that.

It's just that by not crediting his collaborators and then them giving interviews on their relationship with him, it might give people a wrong idea, that Williams doesn't do it all by himself (contrary to what his albums state), ironically. Just a thought.

And yes, I disagree with him! Time to boycott War Horse album!

Karol

[Sandor]

I understand that.

It's just that by not crediting his collaborators and then them giving interviews on their relationship with him, it might give people a wrong idea, that Williams doesn't do it all by himself (contrary to what his albums state), ironically. Just a thought.

And yes, I disagree with him! Time to boycott War Horse album!

Karol

Yeah... Let's do that... Oh wait! Damn; I already bought it.

[crocodile]

Yeah, mine is on its way too.

Karol

[ins]

Hmm, after listening to Williams recent effort after Tintin (which emotionally completely ticks with me, therefore a [subjective] masterpiece in my opinion) I somehow struggle to find War Horse very interesting.

Don't get me wrong, there is nice thematically writing but I find it dull/boring and just cannot connect to this kind of music. The action writing in No Man's land does not even come close to his recent writings and surprisingly does not really remind me of John. The only track I immediately can connect to is The Dissertation (~0:29 - 1:30; gimme more of that in Lincoln please ).

So, what is wrong with me? What do the guys who very much like the action writing in the prequels, War of the Worlds, Tintin, etc. think of? Am I the only one having trouble getting a decent emotional response out of this score, which sadly is the first Williams album I feel this way?

[Incanus]

The only track I immediately can connect to is The Dissertation (~0:29 - 1:30; gimme more of that in Lincoln please ).

So, what is wrong with me? What do the guys who very much like the action writing in the prequels, War of the Worlds, Tintin, etc. think of? Am I the only one having trouble getting a decent emotional response out of this score, which sadly is the first Williams album I feel this way?

Hmmm I think it should be Desertion not Dissertation unless Joey is a very smart horse indeed.

And I for one love Williams' modern action music but No Man's Land sends my heart racing like the best of Williams' action pieces. I am sorry to hear you can't get into this music or at least not emotionally engaged. To me this is equally if not more emotional as The Adventures of Tintin.

[ins]

Hmmm I think it should be Desertion not Dissertation unless Joey is a very smart horse indeed.

Doesn't your CD cover states: War Horse, PhD? But yeah, you're right

No Man's Land starts getting interesting at 3:55 (I love these "twitchy" strings) but than it is already over... :/

[SF1_freeze]

Tintin is a good score but War Horse (so far) is the masterpiece

[publicist]

To me this is equally if not more emotional as The Adventures of Tintin.

Well, the film is a tearjerker so it's a given. And given the good amount of set pieces (PLOWING!) Spielberg had the decency to let Williams not play second fiddle this time (which isn't a given).

[indy4]

I've been avoiding all War Horse discussion threads for fear that somebody will mention the spoilerific track titles, but I just had a chance to give War Horse my first listen, and here are my thoughts:

It's fantastic! I love each of the themes and the ways they're utilized. They never quite play the same way twice, in instrumentation, harmonization, mood, etc. It is definitely a John Williams score - I hear traces of the prequels, SPR, and WotW - but it avoids retreading old ground, and it offers a lot of really new and interesting ideas. After hearing mutliple instances of self-plagarism in KotCS (and I still love that score, btw), I was expecting Tintin and WH to have a decent amount of references. But I can't hear anything but some very general similarities to other score, also known as style (okay, there is that lift from PotC, but it's so radically different in every aspect that I'm not too offended by it).

I wonder if JW is about to write a flute concerto? He certainly seems to have a new found appreciation for the instrument after listening to Tintin and WH.

[tannhauser]

He has written a flute concerto already. I think it will be a trombone concerto next, if he ever gets a break from Spielberg! Although I really want him to do a piano concerto.

[indy4]

Oh, as a trombone player I'd buy a trombone concerto in an instant!

[Marian Schedenig]

And the opening spread lists all the performers. I noticed two "Williams" under "Percussion": Donald and Jerry. And they BOTH related to the maestro?

I only learned of Jerry a few days ago in the booklet of one of those 60s Williams scores. Being familiar with Don and seeing the album notes mention his brother, I was somewhat confused when the credits listed a Jerry Williams. Then I noticed that several of the 60s scores do.

War Horse is the first CD where I've seen both Don and Jerry listed, though. Could this be the first time they've both performed together on a John score?

[Maurizio]

He has written a flute concerto already. I think it will be a trombone concerto next, if he ever gets a break from Spielberg! Although I really want him to do a piano concerto.

"Snowy's Theme" seems like a warm-up for a piano concerto. I really hope he'll write one someday.

I agree that a Trombone Concerto will probably be his next concert composition (he even slightly mentioned in that interview with Brian Bell last May).

[Chaac]

It seems I finally hit the right mood and was able to get into this score.

I find the middle section of the CD particularly engaging as the nature of the introduction of the score seems to sink. It's chilling.

[Maurizio]

The "war" cues sound like Williams conjuring up more of a feeling of blood, sweat and tears than describing/illustrating it. The use of interesting colors (boht in terms of harmonic language and orchestration) seems to suggest a kind of impressionist feel more than trying to replicate the action as seen on screen. This is something Williams and Spielberg do often when making straight dramas. What is innerly great in these cues is that Williams reaches a hair-raising intensity, literally pulling out all the stops.

I honestly can't understand the talk about Williams using a Zimmer-like style in these sections. To me, it sounds more of a development of his tense action writing as heard in JFK. He surely uses some block-chords and unison orchestration in strings and horns, but if you listen carefully you'll notice there's much more going on in these cues than the typical straight Zimmer in action mode.

[Incanus]

The "war" cues sound like Williams conjuring up more of a feeling of blood, sweat and tears than describing/illustrating it. The use of interesting colors (boht in terms of harmonic language and orchestration) seems to suggest a kind of impressionist feel more than trying to replicate the action as seen on screen. This is something Williams and Spielberg do often when making straight dramas. What is innerly great in these cues is that Williams reaches a hair-raising intensity, literally pulling out all the stops.

I honestly can't understand the talk about Williams using a Zimmer-like style in these sections. To me, it sounds more of a development of his tense action writing as heard in JFK. He surely uses some block-chords and unison orchestration in strings and horns, but if you listen carefully you'll notice there's much more going on in these cues than the typical straight Zimmer in action mode.

Well put!

To my ears e.g. the Charge and Capture is more in line with Williams' previous dissonant and exciting pieces like the Motorcade from JFK, ratcheting the tension by the growing density in the orchestra, the brass making those dissonant call-and-answer gestures, the rhythm staying constant and relentless.

The Desertion is also in line with Williams' more recent action pieces, but more tense suspence and kinetic push than all out action.

No Man's Land on the other hand displays a very effective, simple and unsettling building of those cold string dissonances that are followed by the explosive and exhilarating scherzando (from another scene), which I think is some of his most gripping action music in quite a while. There is one heroic brass passage here that has been getting comparisons to Zimmer but since I don't know his recent output very well I can't comment. To me it sounds like Williams pulling out all stops and presenting determined and heroic material for what sounds like a wild race.

[KK.]

I just got this score today. Can't wait to give it a spin! This has been my most anticipated release of the year! Hopefully its worth it.

- KK