236 replies to this topic

[E.T. & Elliott]

This score doesn't seem to be getting a lot of love. More the opposite, or so it seems. I feel like currently moviegoers expect scores to consist of random piano key strikes, pounding electronic percussion, horns playing long sustained notes and repetitive string ostinatos. Lush symphonic scores are dead to the masses.

[Incanus]

It is a bit strange how people are conditioned these days to either the overbearing block buster scoring that pounds your into submission with enormous amount of sound and bass or the sound design/drum loops/sparse electronic meanderings. When a film score which is emotional, organically orchestral and trying to make a statement appears people consider it old fashioned and obtrusive. Then again there are exceptions to this since The Artist is garnering awards and praise from every side and will most likely win an Oscar. But in that case people might think old fashioned scoring admissable since it is a silent film and big score is almost inevitable part of such a film.

[Jason LeBlanc]

This score doesn't seem to be getting a lot of love. More the opposite, or so it seems. I feel like currently moviegoers expect scores to consist of random piano key strikes, pounding electronic percussion, horns playing long sustained notes and repetitive string ostinatos. Lush symphonic scores are dead to the masses.

I still think its the best score of the year. Its a simply fantastic listen to on CD.

I don't think it was as effective in the film as it in on CD. Some of the music simply didn't even need to be there in the film, or was too much for the scene.

Unlike Tintin, which I think was perfect for the film and works great on CD

In both cases, I sure would love to hear the complete recordings sessions, as there is great stuff that Williams chose not to include on the OST for both films.

[crocodile]

It is a bit strange how people are conditioned these days to either the overbearing block buster scoring that pounds your into submission with enormous amount of sound and bass or the sound design/drum loops/sparse electronic meanderings. When a film score which is emotional, organically orchestral and trying to make a statement appears people consider it old fashioned and obtrusive. Then again there are exceptions to this since The Artist is garnering awards and praise from every side and will most likely win an Oscar. But in that case people might think old fashioned scoring admissable since it is a silent film and big score is almost inevitable part of such a film.

The Artist, no matter how good/bad it is, remains this season's gimmick. And as such it can win.

Karol

[Trumpeteer]

I like Tintin but I feel the action is a little too disjointed for my tastes. It's good, but not great. In War Horse (and actually this goes for the entire score) you never feel like Williams was scoring a film. It feels like a concert work inspired by a book.

I agree wholeheartedly. I think that's why the music didn't feel right most of the time. This is the same feeling I get when I am watching "Azkaban" and watching the Aunt Marge scene. The action music was pretty good, but some others felt like they weren't written necessarily for the visuals.

I still think its the best score of the year. Its a simply fantastic listen to on CD.

I don't think it was as effective in the film as it in on CD. Some of the music simply didn't even need to be there in the film, or was too much for the scene.

This is why I wait to hear the music until I see the film. I want to hear it in the place it was intended to be heard, in conjunction with the visuals.

Unfortunately, many Oscar-winning scores are picked based on how they sound on CD.

[Jason LeBlanc]

Unfortunately, many Oscar-winning scores are picked based on how they sound on CD.

Well in that case War Horse is a lock!

[indy4]

I like Tintin but I feel the action is a little too disjointed for my tastes. It's good, but not great. In War Horse (and actually this goes for the entire score) you never feel like Williams was scoring a film. It feels like a concert work inspired by a book.

I agree wholeheartedly. I think that's why the music didn't feel right most of the time. This is the same feeling I get when I am watching "Azkaban" and watching the Aunt Marge scene. The action music was pretty good, but some others felt like they weren't written necessarily for the visuals.

Actually, I think it served the film well too. Maybe one too many dramatic moments in the beginning, but other than that I have no complaints.

One thing about the Artist: I hope the voters (namely the non-musicians) realize that the last two cues in the film are by Bernard Herrmann and a parody of "Sing, Sing, Sing."

[Richard Penna]

I've heard The Artist and I enjoyed it not much more than Jablonsky's latest Transformers score. I.e., turned it off after a few tracks. I rarely like the extremes.

I definitely find some of the action in Tintin disjointed. Actually, I find it amusing that people complain about composers jumping from one idea to another without development. The Clash of the Cranes for example is one of the most inconsistent cues I've ever heard from the maestro.

[indy4]

I definitely find some of the action in Tintin disjointed. Actually, I find it amusing that people complain about composers jumping from one idea to another without development. The Clash of the Cranes for example is one of the most inconsistent cues I've ever heard from the maestro.

I sorta agree. I think the cue makes more sense from the perspective of the score as a whole than it does on an individual level, as it brings back a lot of the ideas from earlier in the score (and not just thematic ones). I like it, and I still think it's better than what most/all modern composers would've written, but it's far from JW's best action material.

The opening trombone glissandos are freakin' awesome, though.

[Richard Penna]

My other problem with that cue is that I don't feel any danger at all, when in fact you've got two enemies bashing the crap out of each other with construction cranes.

Same problem as with his approach to the Jungle Chase - Spielberg's direction I guess, but he's scoring it more as a 'fun' scene, rather than providing some menace.

[indy4]

That's not a problem for me. I love the mood of this one, just as I love the mood of Jungle Chase (which I think is an incredibly well composed action cue, better than most of Tintin's action music). I'll take War Horse for dark action cues and Tintin for lighthearted ones, and they'll balance each other out.

[Incanus]

I definitely find some of the action in Tintin disjointed. Actually, I find it amusing that people complain about composers jumping from one idea to another without development. The Clash of the Cranes for example is one of the most inconsistent cues I've ever heard from the maestro.

I sorta agree. I think the cue makes more sense from the perspective of the score as a whole than it does on an individual level, as it brings back a lot of the ideas from earlier in the score (and not just thematic ones). I like it, and I still think it's better than what most/all modern composers would've written, but it's far from JW's best action material.

The opening trombone glissandos are freakin' awesome, though.

And also the cue is missing a whole middle section on the OST which reprises the Red Rackham theme for the actual crane fight. Williams' microedits do not help the cohesiveness really.

[Richard Penna]

I definitely prefer Jungle Chase to most of the action in Tintin.

Maybe the crane fight will play better from the promo - it does nothing for me in the OST form. Although interestingly, I remember finding that the scene itself went on a bit (I don't think that fighting on ships translates that well to fighting with cranes) and the music probably didn't help.

[indy4]

FSM compiled a bunch of critics' comments about the WH score. Some contain some very minor spoiler:

Spoiler

"One shot near the end, a view of the road leading up to the Narracotts' farm at sunset, is almost surreally extreme in its oversaturated beauty, like an old Technicolor movie remembered in a fever dream. (John Williams' score, which ladles on the strings Max Steiner-style, only contributes to the impression of mid-20th-century cinematic grandeur.)"
Dana Stevens, Slate.com
"If 'War Horse' errs on the side of overkill - from composer John Williams's insistently sweet string music to Spielberg's ludicrously romantic lighting -- it acquits its central mission with the strength and assurance of its phenomenal equine protagonist."
Ann Hornaday, Washington Post
"There is no combat in the early scenes of 'War Horse,' Steven Spielberg's sweeping adaptation of the popular stage spectacle, but the film opens with a cinematic assault as audacious and unsparing as the Normandy landing in 'Saving Private Ryan.' With widescreen, pastoral vistas dappled in golden sunlight and washed in music (by John Williams) that is somehow both grand and folksy, Mr. Spielberg lays siege to your cynicism, bombarding you with strong and simple appeals to feeling."
A.O. Scott, New York Times
"Spielberg chooses to segment his unabashedly old-fashioned film into a series of meticulously-composed chapters connected by John Williams’ overemphatic score."
Elizabeth Weitzman, New York Daily News
"More typical of the film's initial stretch, however, is a cloying strain of bucolic whimsy driven by John Williams' pushy score and too many comic relief cutaways to a honking goose."
Justin Chang, Variety

http://filmscoremonthly.com/daily/article.cfm/articleID/6762/Film-Score-Friday-1612/

[Hedwig]

FSM compiled a bunch of critics' comments about the WH score. Some contain some very minor spoiler:

Spoiler

"One shot near the end, a view of the road leading up to the Narracotts' farm at sunset, is almost surreally extreme in its oversaturated beauty, like an old Technicolor movie remembered in a fever dream. (John Williams' score, which ladles on the strings Max Steiner-style, only contributes to the impression of mid-20th-century cinematic grandeur.)"
Dana Stevens, Slate.com
"If 'War Horse' errs on the side of overkill - from composer John Williams's insistently sweet string music to Spielberg's ludicrously romantic lighting -- it acquits its central mission with the strength and assurance of its phenomenal equine protagonist."
Ann Hornaday, Washington Post
"There is no combat in the early scenes of 'War Horse,' Steven Spielberg's sweeping adaptation of the popular stage spectacle, but the film opens with a cinematic assault as audacious and unsparing as the Normandy landing in 'Saving Private Ryan.' With widescreen, pastoral vistas dappled in golden sunlight and washed in music (by John Williams) that is somehow both grand and folksy, Mr. Spielberg lays siege to your cynicism, bombarding you with strong and simple appeals to feeling."
A.O. Scott, New York Times
"Spielberg chooses to segment his unabashedly old-fashioned film into a series of meticulously-composed chapters connected by John Williams’ overemphatic score."
Elizabeth Weitzman, New York Daily News
"More typical of the film's initial stretch, however, is a cloying strain of bucolic whimsy driven by John Williams' pushy score and too many comic relief cutaways to a honking goose."
Justin Chang, Variety

http://filmscoremont...re-Friday-1612/

It sounds like I'm going to LOVE this score with the film I love good old fashioned scoring!

[Joe Brausam]

Just a few comments, the score was fresher in my mind after I saw the film yesterday, but here are some differences I do remember. This should be spoiler free, but if you're worried then don't read.

The opening Dartmoor track starts with a flute solo on the album, but with a string chord in the film. Not sure if it's tracked or not. It's also slightly longer in the film and is followed by a cue not on the album.

There are several cues during the Naracott segment that aren't on the album.

The cue that leads into Plowing contains the War theme....this leads me to think that it isn't a War theme. Instead I think it's more of a dignity theme, and that should make sense to people who have heard how it is used in the film.

Plowing in the film is truncated, but also contains some material that isn't on the album. Mostly involving that circular phrase that the celli and basses play. I believe that the cut we have on the album is superior without that extra material though, it's much more focused.

There is a nice statement of the bonding theme in a scene with Joey and the army captain.

The tail end of the Emilie section of the film has some very beautiful music not on the album - this is the material I would look forward to most when blu-ray rips come along.

The action section of No Man's Land is truncated in the film, missing arguably the best section - the trumpet soli and woodwind/horn call and response statements of the dignity (war) theme. However the film cut also has a short section of material that is not on the album, it is an extension of the Pirates-esque rhythm in the first half of the cue, after the trumpets take it from the horns. It continues to be played by trumpets, but reaches higher in the tessitura. It's about 5 seconds of music, maybe a little more. Again, out album version contains the superior material, but it would be nice to have an uncut version of this cue. It sounded fairly clean in the film, the music was basically front and center, so a rip should mesh fairly well with the album track to make a complete version of the cue.

There is a very nice statement of the bonding theme before The Reunion, it's worth having.

The album version of The Reunion is truncated, there is a short comedic section of music right before the horn chorale version of the bonding theme. It actually sounded like it may have been an insert. In any case, I prefer the album version, it is more focused on the important emotional material rather than side tracking into the comedic stuff.

It is worth mentioning that at least the intro to the end credits IS A DIFFERENT TAKE from what we have on the album in "The Homecoming". It is played slower and with less bite on the tone in the woodwinds. It's more somber, a better transition out of the finale cue. Same musical material, just performed differently. If what Jason said is true about promos being required to use the same takes as used in the film, I wonder if "The Homecoming" would be the film take on the promo.


The album is definitely the ideal presentation of this score. There is very little material I would add to it. That being said, I look forward to some complete edit after the blu-ray comes out, primarily for the extra Emilie material.

[Incanus]

Well in the light of your report Joe I am inclined to believe that the FYC promo would be interesting to hear just to see if they have included the film edits much like they did with Tintin FYC. With luck that CD might contain some unreleased material as well.

[Jason LeBlanc]

I definitely find some of the action in Tintin disjointed. Actually, I find it amusing that people complain about composers jumping from one idea to another without development. The Clash of the Cranes for example is one of the most inconsistent cues I've ever heard from the maestro.

I sorta agree. I think the cue makes more sense from the perspective of the score as a whole than it does on an individual level, as it brings back a lot of the ideas from earlier in the score (and not just thematic ones). I like it, and I still think it's better than what most/all modern composers would've written, but it's far from JW's best action material.

The opening trombone glissandos are freakin' awesome, though.

And also the cue is missing a whole middle section on the OST which reprises the Red Rackham theme for the actual crane fight. Williams' microedits do not help the cohesiveness really.

Except that Williams didn't intend that music to go there; Whatever he did originally write was replaced by that music, which was tracked from the scene where Snowy brings alcohol to Haddock and the second flashbacks begin (though to be fair, the music didn't play there, as it was replaced by music tracked in from the next scene)

Well in the light of your report Joe I am inclined to believe that the FYC promo would be interesting to hear just to see if they have included the film edits much like they did with Tintin FYC. With luck that CD might contain some unreleased material as well.

I knowwww, tell me about it! I can't BELIEVE I didn't even bid on it, it sold for $41! And another one hasn't turned up on ebay yet!

[Joe Brausam]

I've been watching for one on eBay too, I hope one turns up soon!

[Incanus]

I definitely find some of the action in Tintin disjointed. Actually, I find it amusing that people complain about composers jumping from one idea to another without development. The Clash of the Cranes for example is one of the most inconsistent cues I've ever heard from the maestro.

I sorta agree. I think the cue makes more sense from the perspective of the score as a whole than it does on an individual level, as it brings back a lot of the ideas from earlier in the score (and not just thematic ones). I like it, and I still think it's better than what most/all modern composers would've written, but it's far from JW's best action material.

The opening trombone glissandos are freakin' awesome, though.

And also the cue is missing a whole middle section on the OST which reprises the Red Rackham theme for the actual crane fight. Williams' microedits do not help the cohesiveness really.

Except that Williams didn't intend that music to go there; Whatever he did originally write was replaced by that music, which was tracked from the scene where Snowy brings alcohol to Haddock and the second flashbacks begin (though to be fair, the music didn't play there, as it was replaced by music tracked in from the next scene)

Yes it is another conundrum. Did Williams even write music for the middle section of the scene or did he just let the sound effects carry the crane fight? Unfortunately no sheet music for this cue is available I gather? But this is of course the wrong thread to ponder this more deeply.

[Jason LeBlanc]

Right.

The only sheet music I've ever seen are the ones that have slate numbers on my analysis. All the cues on that list in quotation marks are ones I gave my own titles to because I've never seen the sheet music so I have no idea what the original cue title is.

[lostinspace]

I still think it's odd that Williams's orchestrators get no mention whatsoever in the album notes, not even a "special thanks to."

They don't do enough to warrant credit. It's barely even an orchestrators job with JW, furthermore it's not like the old days where the orchestrator worked in the same building and can offer suggestions in real time. What we are hearing now with Williams is more than ever his orchestration/sound, not that of someone elses with the exception of the synth parts.

[publicist]

They don't do enough to warrant credit. It's barely even an orchestrators job with JW, furthermore it's not like the old days where the orchestrator worked in the same building and can offer suggestions in real time. What we are hearing now with Williams is more than ever his orchestration/sound, not that of someone elses with the exception of the synth parts.

Rubbish. Herb Spencer didn't get credit in 'the old days' and i don't think Williams was above suggestions by him, then. It's just a little vanity on JW's part.

[Datameister]

I think Williams' orchestrators should get credit in the albums not because their work substantially affects the way it sounds, but simply because they're part of the process of getting the music ready to be recorded. A Williams cue will sound the same no matter which of his frequent orchestrators ends up tackling it, but they still ought to get credit. Still, they know what they're getting themselves into.

[publicist]

I think Williams' orchestrators should get credit in the albums not because their work substantially affects the way it sounds, but simply because they're part of the process of getting the music ready to be recorded. A Williams cue will sound the same no matter which of his frequent orchestrators ends up tackling it, but they still ought to get credit. Still, they know what they're getting themselves into.

Exactly. The albums credit the music contractor, editor etc., but people still are zealous coming around with petty arguments why the orchestrator must not be included - even if he is a vital part of the musical team. It just makes no sense.

[Incanus]

I think Williams' orchestrators should get credit in the albums not because their work substantially affects the way it sounds, but simply because they're part of the process of getting the music ready to be recorded. A Williams cue will sound the same no matter which of his frequent orchestrators ends up tackling it, but they still ought to get credit. Still, they know what they're getting themselves into.

Exactly. The albums credit the music contractor, editor etc., but people still are zealous coming around with petty arguments why the orchestrator must not be included - even if he is a vital part of the musical team. It just makes no sense.

John Williams is a meanie. It's just his thing.

[publicist]

John Williams is a meanie. It's just his thing.

With a phalanx of upright defenders...right here.

[Incanus]

John Williams is a meanie. It's just his thing.

With a phalanx of upright defenders...right here.

Isn't it awful. We should start a movement to force JW to acknowledge the contributions of these orchestrators in his projects.

[publicist]

Isn't it awful. We should start a movement to force JW to acknowledge the contributions of these orchestrators in his projects.

It might make the news: devoted fanboy converts and calls Hollywood composer to finally reveal the truth!

[Datameister]

Occupy John Williams!

[lostinspace]

They don't do enough to warrant credit. It's barely even an orchestrators job with JW, furthermore it's not like the old days where the orchestrator worked in the same building and can offer suggestions in real time. What we are hearing now with Williams is more than ever his orchestration/sound, not that of someone elses with the exception of the synth parts.

Rubbish. Herb Spencer didn't get credit in 'the old days' and i don't think Williams was above suggestions by him, then. It's just a little vanity on JW's part.

There is no doubt he learnt a lot from Spencer but none of JW orchestrators in the full sense of the word like they would be for other composers (Zimmer etc). There is a contractual reason they are not given credit and it relates to how much they are paid . It is also unclear how much Herb Spencer influeced Williams orchestration/arranging having seen footage of JW at work on Star Wars in late 1970's you can understand why orchestrators were not credited.

[Datameister]

I'm sure Spencer gave Williams the occasional suggestion, and their partnership was surely a positive one that enabled Williams to record his cues in a timely fashion. But this much is clear when you study Williams' sketches or listen to music that Williams himself orchestrated: his orchestrators do little more than translate the information in the sketches into a format that can be more easily used for recording. When Williams orchestrates his own music, it still contains all the delightful qualities that attract us to his music. In fact, you can't even tell which cues he's orchestrated just by listening to them. Williams is more than capable of being Williams without anyone else's help...in fact, judging by the fact that he seems to orchestrate all his own concert works, I wonder if he'd use orchestrators at all if filmmakers gave composers all the time in the world.

[indy4]

I'm just curious, but could somebody give an example of the kind of stuff Williams will ask his orchestrators to do? Is it basically busy work?

[BTR1701]

I'm just curious, but could somebody give an example of the kind of stuff Williams will ask his orchestrators to do? Is it basically busy work?

He gives them this: files.me.com/btr1701/1ueo5u

And they turn it into this: files.me.com/btr1701/cgj7wo

[indy4]

THanks!

[Datameister]

Pretty much. It bears mentioning that the second link was orchestrated and engraved by a fan; when Williams' orchestrators do the job, it comes out looking a little different, but the basic idea is still the same. I wouldn't classify it as "busy work" because it does require considerable knowledge of how the orchestra works, as well as the ability to transpose the parts for certain instruments, and a lot of familiarity with the sorts of shorthand Williams uses in his sketches. There's no doubt that Williams' orchestrators are very skilled individuals, and they're capable of much, much more than Williams has them do. Most orchestrators are composers of their own right.

But at the end of the day, for a Williams score...as I've said, as long as the orchestrator is one of Williams' usual excellent collaborators, it doesn't really matter who orchestrates a given cue. It's going to come out sounding the same in the end, because Williams doesn't leave much to the orchestrators' imagination.

[lostinspace]

+1 Datameister!

One other point - and this is part of and Orchestrators job. Sometimes Williams will write +pno or +glk on some stave, meaning he wants to add piano or glockenspiel to the orchestration. What Datameister says is absolutely true in that they must have a lot of experience and knowledge of instruments and to a lesser extent styles of music. With the pno and glk marking the orchestrator now knows what JW wants but they may change the notation to fit the instrument ( I've noticed this on many of orchestrators hand written copy). For example, pedal may be added to the piano in places, Since a glockenspiel can't really play staccato the note lengths may be changed. All of this is kind of pedantic but thats whats expected of an orchestrator. They know, for example a xylophone cannot sustain/slur notes so if JW writes a staccato slurred woodwind line with added xylophone. They know to notate that so that the composers intention is there i.e. omitting staccato, slurs etc. This is what an orchestrator really means when they say "bringing out the best in a composer, blah blah etc"

[indy4]

Thanks guys! Very helpful.

[indy4]

I remembered Spielberg mentioning that Williams was partially inspired by Williams Wordsworth's poetry. A quick Google search found this poem. Now, I'm not very good at analyzing poetry, and I realize that these observations are fairly superficial, but the poem includes a horse, harmony, and it is about the land (which also served as inspiration for Williams, according to Spielberg).

Calm is all nature as a resting wheel
Calm is all nature as a resting wheel.
The kine are couched upon the dewy grass;
The horse alone, seen dimly as I pass,
Is cropping audibly his later meal:
Dark is the ground; a slumber seems to steal
O'er vale, and mountain, and the starless sky.
Now, in this blank of things, a harmony,
Home-felt, and home-created, comes to heal
That grief for which the senses still supply
Fresh food; for only then, when memory
Is hushed, am I at rest. My Friends! restrain
Those busy cares that would allay my pain;
Oh! leave me to myself, nor let me feel
The officious touch that makes me droop again.

[Salacius]

Just got my disc yesterday. Initially I thought , ‘what a lovely score’. Light and brilliant at the first half for the obvious reasons, dark on the second half. I thought the battle music was handled fantastically and there is a bit on track 9 I think where it’s the heaviest I heard Williams write in years.

And then track 19 kicked in. And something happened when the piano theme came on.
It proceeded to the string part of the same theme, and then it came back in the end of ‘The Homecoming’.

At that point my chest cracked open and my heart was ripped out. Bloody hell, what a wonderful, lovely theme!!!

It was imbedded in my brain (and still is) for the rest of the day within seconds after hearing it.
Absolutely stunning. It just felt like ‘it was meant to be’.

This guy just never ceases to amaze me.