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2012 Oscar Discussion Thread (Tintin and War Horse nominated for Best Original Score!)


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#121 Josh500

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:13 AM

The Academy seems to be saying, "Okay, we possibly can't NOT nominate John Williams because we don't want to lose our credibility here, but we don't wanna give the Best Score Oscar to John Williams every second frigging year, either!"

And let's face it, just to be nominated (out of how many? hundreds of submissions?) is an honor. And JW got two this year... well, again!

#122 BloodBoal

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:17 AM

It's hard, maybe even impossible, to write an outstandingly good score for a mediocre movie.


Not true.

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#123 gkgyver

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:17 AM

Well, I am just saying that IMO KotCS (the score) is not bad at all. It has some great new themes, and some oustanding standalone pieces (Jungle Chase, Whirl, Departure, etc.). So it uses a couple of pieces originally written for Raiders, so what?


I think the original discussion was that Indy 4 wasn't nominated for the Oscar in 2009. And I'm saying that quoting Raiders as well as Last Crusade left and right undermined its chances even further (on top of it being an average JW score IMO and being written for an average at best movie).

And wouldn't you gladly change the quotes that are in the film for some new variations on those themes? Or new themes? Those quotes in Crystal Skull detract from what should have been a 100% original Indy score.

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#124 Josh500

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:24 AM

Well, of course, in a perfect world, yes.

But how much music was actually quoted in a score which lasts what? Around 100 minutes? Let's see: apart from Raiders March, there are the snippets from Flight from Peru, Map Room, and a ten-second-or-so quote from Indy's father theme from TLC. And this amounts to what? 4-5 minutes?

Give me a break. IMO that's really nitpicking. And I don't think that's the main reason Indy 4 the score wasn't nominated, either. The overall score wasn't strong enough.

But again, to me it serves the movie perfectly and we got a few great concert/standalone pieces out of it.

#125 gkgyver

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:28 AM

The Academy seems to be saying, "Okay, we possibly can't NOT nominate John Williams because we don't want to lose our credibility here, but we don't wanna give the Best Score Oscar to John Williams every second frigging year, either!"

And let's face it, just to be nominated (out of how many? hundreds of submissions?) is an honor. And JW got two this year... well, again!



I wouldn't call one Oscar in 18 years "every second year", with the last one being Schindler's List, and assuming he will win another one in his lifetime.
Especially with a track record in these 18 years that includes Seven Years In Tibet, Saving Private Ryan, Angela's Ashes, A.I., Philosopher's Stone, Catch Me If You Can, Prisoner Of Azkaban, Memoirs Of A Geisha, Munich, War Of The Worlds, War Horse, just counting the more popular ones.

Given that, you can give JW a nomination and the award any year, just for recognition, and it would be deserved.

"You think they wear those tight-fitting clothes just so some other bride can say 'Gee your hips look succulent'? The good-looking ones know we're looking, they love us to be looking, and god bless 'em, they're carrying the rest of their sex!" - Al Bundy


#126 Josh500

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:33 AM


The Academy seems to be saying, "Okay, we possibly can't NOT nominate John Williams because we don't want to lose our credibility here, but we don't wanna give the Best Score Oscar to John Williams every second frigging year, either!"

And let's face it, just to be nominated (out of how many? hundreds of submissions?) is an honor. And JW got two this year... well, again!



I wouldn't call one Oscar in 18 years "every second year", with the last one being Schindler's List, and assuming he will win another one in his lifetime.
Especially with a track record in these 18 years that includes Seven Years In Tibet, Saving Private Ryan, Angela's Ashes, A.I., Philosopher's Stone, Catch Me If You Can, Prisoner Of Azkaban, Memoirs Of A Geisha, Munich, War Of The Worlds, War Horse, just counting the more popular ones.

Given that, you can give JW a nomination and the award any year, just for recognition, and it would be deserved.


Well, maybe not "every second year" like I said, but I am getting the feeling that the Academy is basically saying, "We will acknowledge JW's contributions with nominations, but we are very reluctant to award him any more Oscars . . . since he already has five!"

Keep in my mind, that that's NOT what I am saying. If it were up to me, the truly best score should always win, and it would be JW most times. But this might go a long way toward explaining why JW hasn't won in the past 18 years.

#127 gkgyver

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:37 AM

We'll have to accept it: JWfan will only be able to fully and truly embrace Oscar winners once John is dead :D

But I already hear the voices ... "Williams could write something better in his grave."

"You think they wear those tight-fitting clothes just so some other bride can say 'Gee your hips look succulent'? The good-looking ones know we're looking, they love us to be looking, and god bless 'em, they're carrying the rest of their sex!" - Al Bundy


#128 Josh500

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:40 AM

We'll have to accept it: JWfan will only be able to fully and truly embrace Oscar winners once John is dead :D

But I already hear the voices ... "Williams could write something better in his grave."


:sigh:

Like I said in the other thread, I don't really care whether he wins or not anymore. I was sorely disappointed in 2005, and again in 2006, so I don't care anymore.

But still, again, it's an honor to be nominated. And an even greater honor to get double-nominations.

#129 Ricard

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:59 AM


I really don't get the hatred for Reznor on this board.


Me neither. It's very annoying.


http://music-mix.ew....o/?iid=rcfooter
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#130 crocodile

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 12:15 PM

LOL. Of course there is nothing "interchangeable" about modern film scores.

But, seriously, I don't exactly get the criticism behind not nominating people who didn't even score the film, technically speaking. They just wrote music, which then was placed by director in the film wherever he thought was appropriate. If there is an award in there, then it would go to sound editor. A proper scoring, as we all know, is much more demanding task.

Karol
"Modern, serious music has become embroiled in an intellectual discussion that has no place in music. Certainly, the great composer of the past were geniuses and used their intellect, but only to serve their emotions and guide their craft. Not to dictate to them what they should or shouldn't write" - Michael Kamen, 1995

 


#131 chuckster312

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 12:23 PM



I really don't get the hatred for Reznor on this board.


Me neither. It's very annoying.


http://music-mix.ew....o/?iid=rcfooter



Oh wow. That idiot that wrote that article clearly didn't know what he's talking about.

#132 Richard Penna

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 12:31 PM

+1

The author is entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't stop me saying it's a load of rubbish.

#133 crocodile

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 12:34 PM

The funny thing about all this situation is that none of these people seem to give us any sensible reason why this music is supposed to be so fitting for films. It's mostly about being "different from old" and "something for young audience", but there is no mention how it enriches film and what does it do to the narrative. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to get from it, despite it being modern. I have nothing against such music, but there is absolutely no substance to this discussion (though, the word "discussion" is a big overstatement).

Karol
"Modern, serious music has become embroiled in an intellectual discussion that has no place in music. Certainly, the great composer of the past were geniuses and used their intellect, but only to serve their emotions and guide their craft. Not to dictate to them what they should or shouldn't write" - Michael Kamen, 1995

 


#134 Richard Penna

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 12:41 PM

Yeah it's like the elephant in the room, except it's one that no one knows the answer to. It's far too subjective and personal.

An intimate, modern score has just as much business in the oscars as a sweeping orchestral epic, but it seems that the preference goes towards whatever's in fashion that year.

#135 crocodile

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 12:46 PM

One more thing: I guess Reznor and Ross are perfect for creating music for a film in which one of the main characters listens to this kind of stuff or the film is about modern stuff (like this Facebook movie, for example). The music just recapitulates what we already know about these worlds. That's their comfort zone.

But give them War Horse to score or a Star Wars movie. Or The Lord of the Rings. Or a romantic comedy. I want to hear how capable and versatile are they ?

I mean, show me EXACTLY what John Williams, or Howard Shore, are doing wrong!

Karol
"Modern, serious music has become embroiled in an intellectual discussion that has no place in music. Certainly, the great composer of the past were geniuses and used their intellect, but only to serve their emotions and guide their craft. Not to dictate to them what they should or shouldn't write" - Michael Kamen, 1995

 


#136 hornist

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 12:52 PM

One more thing: I guess Reznor and Ross are perfect for creating music for a film in which one of the main characters listens to this kind of stuff or the film is about modern stuff (like this Facebook movie, for example). The music just recapitulates what we already know about these worlds. That's their comfort zone.

But give them War Horse to score or a Star Wars movie. Or The Lord of the Rings. Or a romantic comedy. I want to hear how capable and versatile are they ?

I mean, show me EXACTLY what John Williams, or Howard Shore, are doing wrong!

Karol


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

#137 chuckster312

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 12:53 PM

No he didn't bash Shore. He simply concentrated his hate towards the more veteran composer.

#138 crocodile

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 01:08 PM

That's because John Williams is the worst thing that ever happened to film music. We all know that!

Howard Shore is just the 13th worst thing...

Karol
"Modern, serious music has become embroiled in an intellectual discussion that has no place in music. Certainly, the great composer of the past were geniuses and used their intellect, but only to serve their emotions and guide their craft. Not to dictate to them what they should or shouldn't write" - Michael Kamen, 1995

 


#139 Smeagol

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 02:39 PM

I really don't get the hatred for Reznor on this board.

But anyway, it's nice to see that unlike Spielberg, Williams still hasn't lost the Academy's respect. Any note he puts to paper gets nominated.


He can't write good film music. In my case, it's not even that I don't like ambient/synth stuff, but Reznor can't even write good ambient scores. At least he hasn't in the two movies he's done so far.

That's the problem, the guy can't write good film music. Personal tastes aside, he's simply not a good composer. I mean, I've had a really hard time connecting emotionally to Giacchino's scores. For some reason the guy's music just doesn't do it for me, but I will never say that he can't write music.

I can't say the same about Reznor. He may be great with NIN, but writing music for movies, he fails.

#140 Incanus

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 03:00 PM

That's because John Williams is the worst thing that ever happened to film music. We all know that!

Howard Shore is just the 13th worst thing...

Karol

Yeah a plague if there ever was one.They keep cranking out those ol' formulaic scores that don't address the modern mindset but are stuck in the 20th century aesthetics that do not speak to the young, hip and cool audience who view everything with extreme cynicism and sarcasm and demand constant innovation from their music.

I am hip and cool btw. So this post may contain frustrated sarcasm, nudge nudge, wink wink.

Ars superior est vita hominum.

 

"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-

 

I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-


#141 tannhauser

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 03:06 PM

But the nice thing about it all is that we get to hear Bill Conti (or whoever is in charge of the Academy orchestra this year) conducting pieces from "Tintin" and "War Horse"... :)


Isn't Hans Zimmer (and Pharell Williams) in charge of music this year? Not looking forward to hearing Pharrell's remix of The Adventures of Tintin, or Hans' "action" re-orchestration of No Man's Land.
Oh, War Horse is great! - John Williams

#142 BloodBoal

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 03:12 PM

or Hans' "action" re-orchestration of No Man's Land.


Isn't No Man's Land a Zimmer cue anyway?

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#143 tannhauser

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 03:22 PM

Indeed, but I meant he'd add a load of throbbing bass, electronic drum hits, absurd amounts of brass, and synths
Oh, War Horse is great! - John Williams

#144 Romão

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 03:31 PM

You guys have to remember that those who nominate Williams and those who elect the winner are not the same people. In many ways, it's more prestigious to be nominated that to win
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#145 Jay

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 03:43 PM

That's a very true and very excellent point.

#146 airmanjerm

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 05:10 PM

The big problem there is Williams, whose scores are so formulaic and interchangeable that you could literally assign any of them to any one of Steven Spielberg’s movies.


How did this guy get a job writing about music? He can hate Williams for all I care, but this one is just plain stupid.

"...you could literally assign any of them to any one of Steven Spielberg's movies."

Oh really, Mr. Music Critic? Literally?

Because we all know that just as Oscar Schindler is writing out his list, we're all on the edge of our seats hoping...wishing....that he could just put more of his workers on there....the tension is building...just one or two more.... and then..... BOOM TIZZ!!!! Raider's March! "I COULD HAVE SAVED MORE!!!"

That's heroic music, right? And so interchangeable!


ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO :rolleyes:

#147 Josh500

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 05:36 PM

This guy is probably just a troll. :lol:

#148 ckappes

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 05:38 PM

John Williams' scores are never - I repeat never - interchangeable!
„With his strong classical background and his creative musical sense, John Williams has written majestic and wonderfully thematic scores for STAR WARS and THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. Through his music he has provided the most emotional heart of the films. I feel these score are among the best ever done and are equal to many of the classical pieces we have come to love.”

- Gary Kurtz


#149 crocodile

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 05:41 PM

Actually, E.T.'s flying theme works wonders in a Munich sex scene.

Karol
"Modern, serious music has become embroiled in an intellectual discussion that has no place in music. Certainly, the great composer of the past were geniuses and used their intellect, but only to serve their emotions and guide their craft. Not to dictate to them what they should or shouldn't write" - Michael Kamen, 1995

 


#150 airmanjerm

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 05:49 PM

This guy is probably just a troll. :lol:


Well, he writes for "Entertainment Weekly" so, yeah, he has about as much credibility as an internet troll....

#151 Incanus

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 06:13 PM

Actually, E.T.'s flying theme works wonders in a Munich sex scene.

Karol

Over the moon my friend, over the moon.

Ars superior est vita hominum.

 

"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-

 

I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-


#152 Alexander

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 06:20 PM

:D

#153 Romão

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 06:20 PM

Lots cue of ET cues could be used in that scene :) Toys, ET and Me, Over the Moon, ET's Powers, Invading Elliot's House
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#154 Elmo Lewis

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 09:58 PM



I really don't get the hatred for Reznor on this board.


Me neither. It's very annoying.


http://music-mix.ew....o/?iid=rcfooter


I don't think that those who don't hate Reznor go to that extreme.


I really don't get the hatred for Reznor on this board.

But anyway, it's nice to see that unlike Spielberg, Williams still hasn't lost the Academy's respect. Any note he puts to paper gets nominated.


He can't write good film music. In my case, it's not even that I don't like ambient/synth stuff, but Reznor can't even write good ambient scores. At least he hasn't in the two movies he's done so far.

That's the problem, the guy can't write good film music. Personal tastes aside, he's simply not a good composer. I mean, I've had a really hard time connecting emotionally to Giacchino's scores. For some reason the guy's music just doesn't do it for me, but I will never say that he can't write music.

I can't say the same about Reznor. He may be great with NIN, but writing music for movies, he fails.


Well, I'm not going to defend the guy because that would be futile and I'm only a casual fan of The Social Network. But at least the man gives you something to hate. Not droning, MV stuff, but something fresh and original that usually fits the movie quite well. Dragon Tattoo is pretty much unlistenable on its own but it works very, very well in the movie so, in my opinion, that's good film scoring.

And at least it wasn't a rehash of The Social Network. It is driven by a desire of reinvention.
"We’re flawed because we want so much more. We’re ruined because we get these things and wish for what we had."

#155 astonexperience

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 10:23 PM

Hi Everyone,
Just bursting to post something. I honestly believe 'War Horse' was JW's greatest score since Schindler's List, if you just look at the way it works in the film it is text book. Plus technically it is head and shoulders above most scores. For thoses thinking I am bias well personally I was a little dissapointed in Tin Tin, for the sake of JW's now record breaking nomination success I am thrilled it got a nod.

I have been listening to film scores since I was 6 years old, I have served as a session musician, co-orchestrator and both symphony and brass only conductor - I say that I think it will be a travasty if (and I'm sure it will) The Artist wins. I tried so hard to REALLY love the Artist score and the film for that matter but in the end I found it barely above average, its just too manufactured for me plus it hurts when a new composer barely on the scene takes an award that true great long established composers have missed out on. Last year I felt physically sick when Trent Raznor STOLE the award from Alexander Desplat and alas I think this year I will feel the same. I say it again 'War Horse' should win.

Sorry to rant but I ADORE this forum and I think JWFAN for overall information is easily amoung the best websites in internet history.

Thanks to everyone who contributes, especially Jason.

Ad Moore (UK)

#156 Stefancos

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 10:31 PM

Like the Aston!

qyjpO0k_zpsfc8aeaaf.png

 


 


#157 astonexperience

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 10:35 PM

Oh apologise for misspelling of Reznor, I meant no dis-respect I just was getting a little excited when I was typing.

I have just remember another example of a year that a new to the scene film composer won, remember when John Corigliano won for The Red Violin beating of Williams and Newman.

Thanks again guys.

Ad

#158 Thor

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:00 PM



I really don't get the hatred for Reznor on this board.


Me neither. It's very annoying.


http://music-mix.ew....o/?iid=rcfooter


I agree 100% with that guy. I'd rather have TATOO than most of the others.

So my ideal list for 2011 would be:

THE GIRL WITH THE DRAGON TATOO (Reznor/Ross)
DRIVE (Martinez)
HANNA (The Chemical Brothers)
JANE EYRE (Marianelli)
WAR HORSE (Williams)

Yes, I actually don't think TINTIN was deserving, but the Williams fan in me is always glad for all the nominations the master gets.

#159 mrbellamy

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:54 PM

Well, I'm not going to defend the guy because that would be futile and I'm only a casual fan of The Social Network. But at least the man gives you something to hate. Not droning, MV stuff, but something fresh and original that usually fits the movie quite well. Dragon Tattoo is pretty much unlistenable on its own but it works very, very well in the movie so, in my opinion, that's good film scoring.

And at least it wasn't a rehash of The Social Network. It is driven by a desire of reinvention.


I gave another listen to The Social Network because of this thread, and while I am also only a casual fan of the score, I was surprised by how immediately I was put back into the film by the music. Some nice and - yes - memorable ideas in there, so a pretty successful effort, as far as I'm concerned. I'm looking forward to watching/hearing The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.

That said, the writer of that EW article is kind of a twit.

I have just remember another example of a year that a new to the scene film composer won, remember when John Corigliano won for The Red Violin beating of Williams and Newman.


Just want to clarify that The Red Violin was actually John Corigliano's fourth film score, his first being Altered States in 1980. And he's certainly no rookie, being only six years younger than John Williams and composing professionally for about as long as our beloved maestro. One of the great champions of the modern concert world :)

#160 Ricard

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 12:53 AM

I agree 100% with that guy.


So you agree with this?

"The big problem there is Williams, whose scores are so formulaic and interchangeable that you could literally assign any of them to any one of Steven Spielberg’s movies. In the case of War Horse, the score actually hurts the movie, as I don’t think it would be as nakedly, emotionally manipulative were it not for Williams’ heavy-handedness. In a just world, neither of the Williams scores would have gotten a nod."
"I find that Williams' scores have a strong narrative which comes best out in correct order." -- Incanus




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