60 replies to this topic

[Stefancos]

http://io9.com/58839...ways-shot-first

GO!

[Jason LeBlanc]

Suuuuuuuuure George. And the shooting script and novelization where just both coincidentally wrong, right?

George Lucas has gone completely nuts.

[Wojo]

Not even worth getting excited about.

It'd be pretty cool if Han Solo could accept being shot at point blank range without flinching one bit before he pulls the trigger...but that's not how it happened.

If this really bothers GL that much, then how about something more meaningful and less inoffensive to fans, and edit the Pangkot banquet scene to have them just order a pizza.

[Quint]

Lucas is a demented lunatic bullshit artist.

The End.

[Miles Prower]

I'm calling it right now - Lucas is not insane, he's trolling. With a fanbase this chaotic, it almost makes sense.

Now we just wait for news that Michael Giacchino will rescore parts of the OT.

[ggctuk]

This from the man who put "No? NOOOOOOO!" into ROTJ, despite the script not having it in the first place.

[Koray Savas]

Lucas addresses those longstanding complaints, saying that Blade Runner has gotten recut three ways from Sunday, and nobody seems to mind.

You know why nobody seems to mind, George? Because every damn cut is available to the fans! Dumbshit.

[Jason LeBlanc]

Good point Koray!

[Blumenkohl]

I side with Lucas.

Because fans need to get a fucking life.

[Faleel]

City of Prague recorded Star Wars first!!!!!

[Stefancos]

Lucas is the auteur of Star Wars. He is it's true creator. He can do with it as he like.

He never asked us to like it...

[John Crichton]

Totally delusional. The changes are one thing, it's the insistence to constantly rewrite history to make it look like what he thinks now is what he always thought. But as Woj said at this point it's hardly worth getting worked up over anymore.

[Trent Bennett]

The movie almost makes it un-watchable now. The jump edit they did for the end of Attack Of The Clones for the Blu-Ray release is horrible at best.

[ZackR]

I'm just thankful for the Internet and the multitude of "releases" of the original trilogy that fans have put out everywhere!

[Datameister]

Either insanity or trolling. At this point, I've given up caring.

[Wycket]

The movie almost makes it un-watchable now. The jump edit they did for the end of Attack Of The Clones for the Blu-Ray release is horrible at best.

What exactly did they do here? I'm not buying SW again until the originals are released (so probably never again) and I've never heard of anything being done to AOTC since the 2002 DVD.

[Pasi Tiitinen]

I side with Lucas.

Because fans need to get a life.

[Alexcremers]

He never asked us to like it...

Every artist hopes that people will like their work and I think Lucas was very happy indeed with the success.

[Wojo]

Lucas addresses those longstanding complaints, saying that Blade Runner has gotten recut three ways from Sunday, and nobody seems to mind.

You know why nobody seems to mind, George? Because every damn cut is available to the fans! Dumbshit.

Well, all of the cuts of the Star Wars movies are available to fans, from a certain point of view. We just need to hang onto laserdiscs or VCRs to watch them. For GL to release the first theatrical versions on BluRay would be the ultimate concession to fan greed, from George's perspective, since he will have to pay people to clean up the footage for BR release. And George's pride is all he has left. He's not letting that go without a fight. This is his fight. George Lucas' final stand.

Anybody who goes to see Star Wars in 3D or Red Tails or any indie film the man makes is proving him right: that he can hang onto his silly pride argument and still make a buck in Hollywood.

[elvisjones]

I'm not sure why this is news suddenly - Lucas said the same thing in 1996 when the SE's were being prepped (there's a cd-rom called Making Magic where he explains that he finally gets to clear up that Greedo is meant to shoot first).
Yes, he may be a revisionist, but his revisionism started at least 15 years ago, not this week...

[Stefancos]

Doctor Digital is back????

[elvisjones]

Lucas addresses those longstanding complaints, saying that Blade Runner has gotten recut three ways from Sunday, and nobody seems to mind.

You know why nobody seems to mind, George? Because every damn cut is available to the fans! Dumbshit.

Well, all of the cuts of the Star Wars movies are available to fans, from a certain point of view. We just need to hang onto laserdiscs or VCRs to watch them. For GL to release the first theatrical versions on BluRay would be the ultimate concession to fan greed, from George's perspective, since he will have to pay people to clean up the footage for BR release. And George's pride is all he has left. He's not letting that go without a fight. This is his fight. George Lucas' final stand.

Anybody who goes to see Star Wars in 3D or Red Tails or any indie film the man makes is proving him right: that he can hang onto his silly pride argument and still make a buck in Hollywood.

I honestly think George is just not happy with the original versions and as along as he has the technology and time to tinker with his movies he's going to - these films aren't sacred cows to him, they're personal creative works that he keeps trying to get "more right", closer to what he has in his head. There's always a gap between what a creator has in his head and what he can achieve in the real world. He just refuses to accept that the theatrical release date is a cut-off point for working on a film.

A lot of the Lucas-tinkering bashers have made me think: is the real problem just that it's different?

Is he making these films any better by tinkering with them? I dunno - it's hard to be objective because the originals are so close to my heart. They ARE different - but is that difference worse? If ROTJ had come out in 1983 with Vader yelling "Noooooooo" as he picked up the Emperor and threw him down the shaft, would it have seemed out of place? If GL then took it out for the blu-ray, would I feel differently than him adding it in? Honestly, when I watched the 6 films on bluray last fall, none of the changes really diminished my enjoyment. I noticed the changes, but I'd be hard pressed to say they ruined my feelings about the films. Blinking Ewoks? Fine. Vader saying "noooo" at the end of Jedi? I'm ok with it since it bookends nicely with his "noooo" from SITH. Ghost Hayden? I know it doesn't necessarily make logical sense but emotionally, it IS more satisfying to me to see HC at the end of the 6 film cycle than Shaw. I'd even be ok with HC either dubbing Shaw's voice or somehow being cg'd into the vader suit for the helmet-less scene on the Death Star. Am I crazy? Probably, but so what. I like having a copy of the original version of the Emperor in ESB, but I PREFER seeing Ian McDiarmid in the scene as it is on the bluray. Blasphemy? Probably. So what.

The Beach Boys Pet Sounds was released in stereo for the first time ten or so years ago - until then it had only ever been available in mono. A landmark record. You know what? Since the stereo came out, I've never listened to the mono. I HAVE the mono, but I prefer the stereo. Even though there are differences that couldn't be avoided (missing master tapes, tracks that were wiped after the mono mix, etc) and the mono is the one Brian Wilson sweated over 44+ years ago, I'd rather hear it in stereo. Same thing with Sgt Pepper - in fact, every album the Beatles made except Abbey Road (and Yellow Sub and Let it Be too, although they don't really count) was mixed in mono first under the supervision of the band. Then the producers went back days later and cranked out the stereo mixes on their own without the group there. So the mono versions are really the "definitive" versions of the albums - but the stereo version of Pepper is actually a better mix in my opinion than the mono one.

There are people who prefer the version of Blade Runner with the narration, even though by all accounts it was imposed on Harrison Ford by nervous producers and a director willing to do what he could to make the producers happy.

So yeah, there are different versions of a lot of things, and sometimes those newer versions have phased out older versions. Just because they're different doesn't mean they're worse. That's all I'm saying...

Here endeth the rant. Does anybody even care?

PS - For that matter, does anyone listen to the album versions of JW scores once they cut their own edits? I can't remember the last time I listened to his albums of the Star Wars or Indiana Jones scores, for example...In fact, none of the prequels scores or the Indiana Jones movies have gotten any kind of really definitive release. But everyone seems to blame Sony for that. No one seems to hate JW for fiddling with his music the way they hate George for fiddling with his movies...

[Quint]

Apologists be apologising.

[Sandor]

In the end I view Star Wars like this: there are three versions of the original Star Wars trilogy.

1. The original unaltered versions from 1977, 1980 and 1983.
2. The updated versions (Blu-Ray) that are more in synch with the prequels. So you have Hayden's ghost, you have Ian as the Emperor in ESB, CGI creatures, etc.
3. The Adywan edits (https://www.facebook...visited?sk=wall)

It's just an annoying fact that there is no way to enjoy the one version that really matters to me in a modern, high-end format: the original one...

[Drax]

He views his films like they're cars that need continuous service and upgrading, while he treats his fans as if they're emotionless consumers who only like the films because they make great demo material for their home theatres.

[Stefancos]

PS - For that matter, does anyone listen to the album versions of JW scores once they cut their own edits? I can't remember the last time I listened to his albums of the Star Wars or Indiana Jones scores, for example...In fact, none of the prequels scores or the Indiana Jones movies have gotten any kind of really definitive release. But everyone seems to blame Sony for that. No one seems to hate JW for fiddling with his music the way they hate George for fiddling with his movies...

This is the great hypocrisy of Fanboy behaviour.

People here will not accept a CD release like The Phantom Menace like it was assembled by John Williams, even though he is the creator of the music, and this is the way he wants his music to be heard outside of the film.

Yet they pat themselves on the bag for their endless edits of TPM music that they created themselves, using inferior sources, conjecture regarding correct placement etc...etc...

[Quint]

The fact is the best version of Star Wars is the original. It has nothing to do with hypocrisy.

People just want the best version in the finest possible quality, and that happens to be the original.

[E.T. & Elliott]

You got that right. It was perfect the way it was.

[Quint]

And yet the Lucas defense squad seems incapable of appreciating the old adage that 'the original is the best'.

Oh no - in their eyes it's all our fault for not having an open mind blah blah blah...

[Stefancos]

Don't pretend Lee. You were never an obsessive Star Wars Fanboy.

[Sandor]

Even if the originals were not the best versions (they are by the way), they should be released just for their historic value alone. Films like Metropolis, The Exorcist or E.T. have cultural value and these films need to be released as they were shown originally. Star Wars is no different. The originals made an impact and became relevant; not the 'special editions'.

[Incanus]

Star Wars was kind of ruined for me a long time ago by this tinkering and second guessing and trying to improve the films and ending up with even now aged digital effects meant to cure ills like introducing Jabba the Hutt in the first film etc.

I know the old saying goes "a piece of art is never finished it is just abandoned" but there is also a point where people should learn to let go of their creations. Instead of constantly chipping away at the marble and ending with a formless hunk of stone since the repeated chisel marks have worn the statue into a small pebble one should finish when the statue is still complete, not perhaps perfect but finished. Perfection is an excellent goal and worth pursuing but when the job is done and you have done your best with the means you had at your disposal at the time you should focus on the next thing and try to make it as good as you can. To return to your old creation like a vulture to a carcass time after time really leaves a skeleton behind.

[Quint]

Don't pretend Lee. You were never an obsessive Star Wars Fanboy.

Where did you get the impression I ever was? I've even said in the past that I didn't get into Star Wars till my late teens.

[elvisjones]

Apologists be apologising.

Where did I apologise?

And yet the Lucas defense squad seems incapable of appreciating the old adage that 'the original is the best'.

Oh no - in their eyes it's all our fault for not having an open mind blah blah blah...

I never said anything was anybody's fault. I was just wondering if just because something is different, is it inherently worse? Sometimes the newer versions of things ARE better,or rather, sometimes people actually like the newer versions of things (Blade Runner Final Cut, Star Trek:The Motion Picture, the RCA Star Wars soundtracks).

Honestly, if I want to watch the ORIGINAL version of Star Wars, my favorite choice is Puggo's DVD of the 16mm print of the film he bought of Ebay and mastered himself. It looks like the Star Wars I saw in the theater as a kid and it has the mono soundtrack. Otherwise, the bluray.

I never said I didn't want to have a copy of the original versions of the original trilogy in the best possible quality. I'd LOVE for the GL to remaster the original versions of the films and put them out on bluray. But the difference is, I don't hate GL for tinkering with his movies. It's the creator's prerogative to revisit his own work. And I don't HATE GL for not releasing the originals in hd on blu ray. I know that at some point in my lifetime they will be.

Star Wars was kind of ruined for me a long time ago by this tinkering and second guessing and trying to improve the films and ending up with even now aged digital effects meant to cure ills like introducing Jabba the Hutt in the first film etc.

I know the old saying goes "a piece of art is never finished it is just abandoned" but there is also a point where people should learn to let go of their creations. Instead of constantly chipping away at the marble and ending with a formless hunk of stone since the repeated chisel marks have worn the statue into a small pebble one should finish when the statue is still complete, not perhaps perfect but finished. Perfection is an excellent goal and worth pursuing but when the job is done and you have done your best with the means you had at your disposal at the time you should focus on the next thing and try to make it as good as you can. To return to your old creation like a vulture to a carcass time after time really leaves a skeleton behind.

I notice your profile is a pic of Gandalf. Should Tolkien have stopped fiddling with his published books once they were published? He went back and rewrote parts of The Hobbit after the LOTR trilogy was published to make it more in line with the newer work. He revised the LOTR over his last years as well, as the preface in the book, and his son in about a dozens other books, goes into in great detail. Did those books become a dead carcass once they were released and Tolkien a vulture?

Even if the originals were not the best versions (they are by the way), they should be released just for their historic value alone. Films like Metropolis, The Exorcist or E.T. have cultural value and these films need to be released as they were shown originally. Star Wars is no different. The originals made an impact and became relevant; not the 'special editions'.

What about Lawrence of Arabia? The director preferred the shorter version which is the one that was released wide and the one most people saw when it won Best Picture. And which version of Metropolis are you talking about? No one outside of Berlin ever saw the original full length version, if I recall correctly. Certainly by the time the film came to America in the late 20's, it had been chopped up by Paramount - and for a lot of people, the Moroder version was the one that made an impact and became relevant. Which version of SW would you release? Ep 4 or no Ep 4? Mono soundtrack or surround mix? And which version of Empire? The 70mm version which was released first or the 35mm version which had two shots added in at the end? What about Fantasia? Which version had the impact there? The roadshow version or the wide-release version?

And who says the orginals are the best versions? You? Ok, cool. I say the originals are awesome and the tinkered ones are better in spots and worse in spots. Honestly, in my opinion, ROTJ needs all the help it can get and I don't have a problem with any of the changes - Lapti Nek is just as creaky and bad as Jedi Rocks, in my opinion. Same with Yub Nub/Victory Celebration. Sebastian Shaw looks nothing like a grown up version of HC. As I said in a previous post, I'd LOVE to have the original unaltered trilogy remastered in HD on bluray, for historical purposes. Even though I am apparently a Lucas apologist and supposedly a fanboy, I actually PREFER the original versions of Star Wars (no episode 4) and Empire (no clunky inserts of Vader's shuttle ruining one of the best cues in the film). But parts of the Star Wars SE are better in my opinion, like the ending dogfight over the Death Star and the desert search, and the Jabba scene works for me. And in Empire, the falcon landing on Cloud City is an improvement and the new wampa is more effective, again, in my opinion. And as I said, I like the Emperor matching Jedi and the Prequels.

[Incanus]

What Tolkien did is comparable to Lucas' fiddling up to a point in my mind, in that you are right. Correcting literary errors and adding commentary and preface and other material is common in the world of printed matter although not an excuse. I would applaud Lucas as I have applauded Tolkien for the changes he made if his revisions and fiddling had done some good to the series of classic films but they are irritatingly continual and some of them are completely irrelevant to the story. I am just tired of Lucas doing some change or other once a year to these films. And I am not even a huge fan of SW but I do care that much to note he does these changes.

And Christopher Tolkien's History of Middle-Earth series is not a revision of Lord of the Rings or an attempt to finish his father's work, but rather a scholarly series, a research and look into the process of writing of the whole mythology. When Lucas starts to make making-of documentaries as good as Christopher Tolkien's books then he is on the right track.

[pixie_twinkle]

I honestly think George is just not happy with the original versions and as along as he has the technology and time to tinker with his movies he's going to - these films aren't sacred cows to him, they're personal creative works that he keeps trying to get "more right", closer to what he has in his head. There's always a gap between what a creator has in his head and what he can achieve in the real world. He just refuses to accept that the theatrical release date is a cut-off point for working on a film.

True art is rarely created by an artist putting exactly what's in his head onto the page/canvas/tape/film or whatever. True art STARTS that way, but then develops an identity of its own, shaped by the limitations of technology, the influence of the outside world, input from collaborators etc. Why is Kind of Blue an almost perfect jazz album? Because Miles' trumpet is influenced by the piano work of Bill Evans, and vice versa. Because both players creativity is grounded by the technical limitations of their ability and the equipment they had at their disposal. Because it feels fresh, slightly rough, real.

In 2003, Mike Oldfield completely re-recorded his 1973 album Tubular Bells. He wanted it to sound perfect. He wanted to fix the technical issues on the original. He wanted it to sound more polished so it fitted a little better alongside the sequel albums Tubular Bells II (1992) and Tubular Bells III (1998). The problem was, that the new performance, while certainly sounding cleaner, lacked the immediacy, the roughness, the youthfulness, and the spirit of the original. What was in Oldfield's head in 2003 was not the same youthful spirit and motivation that was in his head back in 1973, when he was a young man with his whole life ahead of him, nothing to live up to, and absolutely nothing to prove to anyone. The original is a masterpiece. The 2003 version is an old man's attempt to recreate youth. It's rather sad, actually.

What is in Lucas's head now is NOT what was in his head in 1977, when he had absolutely nothing to lose, and everything to gain. Star Wars is a young man's film. It needs to stay that way.

[Sandor]

Even if the originals were not the best versions (they are by the way), they should be released just for their historic value alone. Films like Metropolis, The Exorcist or E.T. have cultural value and these films need to be released as they were shown originally. Star Wars is no different. The originals made an impact and became relevant; not the 'special editions'.

What about Lawrence of Arabia? The director preferred the shorter version which is the one that was released wide and the one most people saw when it won Best Picture. And which version of Metropolis are you talking about? No one outside of Berlin ever saw the original full length version, if I recall correctly. Certainly by the time the film came to America in the late 20's, it had been chopped up by Paramount - and for a lot of people, the Moroder version was the one that made an impact and became relevant.

Metropolis was relevant before Moroder got his hands on it. But the thing is this: if numerous releases have been important, as with Metropolis, those various releases should be available to the public. Like with Blade Runner. The problem is simply this: with an important film like Star Wars you can only get one version in a proper way. That's not good. A filmmaker doesn't create art for his own sake; he's asking an audience to pay for it. At that time the work he created sorta 'belongs' to us in the sense that we paid him to make it and to make more of them. That's why we bought those friggin' action figures in the 80's right? So we could see more Star Wars films. He gets our money, we get Empire and Jedi. Great deal I would say. Only now I want to own that film I helped get made the way I saw it back in 1980. I don't feel I can claim the original prints or whatever, but a DVD or Blu-Ray is enough for me. I'm not getting it. I want my money back.

Which version of SW would you release? Ep 4 or no Ep 4? Mono soundtrack or surround mix? And which version of Empire? The 70mm version which was released first or the 35mm version which had two shots added in at the end? What about Fantasia? Which version had the impact there? The roadshow version or the wide-release version?

There is no doubt which version of Star Wars made an impact. The addition of 'Episode IV A New Hope' can in no way compare to a horrid CGI Jabba or Rontos getting in the way. And I don't think anyone would have a problem with an updated soundmix and a clean-upped print of Star Wars. That wouldn't damage the tempo, style or tone of the film we remembered. The Jabba-scene (for instance) did that.

And who says the orginals are the best versions?

Totally besides the point. Even if the originals were vastly inferior, they still should be released with dignity considering the cultural impact they made.

I say the originals are awesome and the tinkered ones are better in spots and worse in spots.

It's that uneven aspect about it that makes the Special Editions failures.

As I said in a previous post, I'd LOVE to have the original unaltered trilogy remastered in HD on bluray, for historical purposes.

That was my point.

[Stefancos]

The point is, and it's one Lucas consistently avoids is that if he were to release the original versions in the equivalent quality of the Blu-ray releases of last year, the complains against him would drop 90%

[Faleel]

The 10 percent left would be because of the prequels and Indy 4.

[Wojo]

Unfortunately, this is about the best we can do...legally.