1781 replies to this topic

[crocodile]

It would be really funny if it turned out to be a single disc edition, basically a slightly remastered album version, with one 2-minute bonus track "uncovering film music history" in which Spielberg and Williams are drung and sing We Don't Wanna Grow Up.

Karol

[indy4]

I'm just afraid that with the entire score, some of the main themes will be overused to fit the needs of the film which will make it harder to appreciate those themes during their powerhouse moments. It kinda happened for 1941, which is why I don't usually listen to the entire score in one sitting. Not a complaint mind you, I'm still over the moon that is being released at all! Just thinking out loud.

Most of these ubber complete fan made 3 or 4cd's Hook sets always include a bunch of redundant stuff and those concert suites from Williams on Williams.

2cd's should be absolutely perfect

Absolutely.

I would recommend the Williams on Williams album though, for the Hook pieces alone.

The arrangements are fantastic, my only complaint is that the Boston Pops probably needed more time to rehearse. A lot of the tempos are painfully slow.

[Pasi Tiitinen]

It has nothing to do wit the amount of rehearsals. The conductor is painfully old.

[Josh500]

The arrangements are fantastic, my only complaint is that the Boston Pops probably needed more time to rehearse. A lot of the tempos are painfully slow.

Slow, yes. Painfully slow, no.

I actually LOVE the different interpretations on the BP albums! "Jim's New Life" is much slower too, but it works perfectly!
____________



Like someone commented on youtube, this music makes me happy.

[GoodMusician]

I think that when they have the oppourtunity to release these complete scores, to NOT include alternates is disheartening. It may be the last time such an oppourtunity arises for them to do this. And when they chose not to, It makes me wonder if those recordings will simply be lost to time...will we ever see them? Will they ever be released?

Its nit picky, but I worry about those things becuase to me, the most interesting things about scores are the alternates...what they didn't do...decided not to do or tried..and what didn't work. Those show more about what the score is envisioned to be than anything...

At the same time, I do understand why they don't do it... I don't like that they don't...but I understand :-/

From film music preservation point of view you are completely right. It might be the only time and chance to preserve some of these scores and extend their life span by transferring them into digital form. Unfortunately harsh realities of cost and finance play a large part in this, especially in these economically uncertain times. I am sure that most agree that if there was unlimited funding for such things, most scores would see the light of day in complete form if legal minutiae etc. could be overcome.

Alternate material by which I mean here something significantly different from the final material found in the film are fascinating, illuminating the scoring process and how the music evolves and how different things can be tried and scenes approached differently. I think that if there is a chance to preserve and present such material to the public by including it on the complete score releases then it should be done. But it should be noted that complete score releases are not raw material presented to the public but intended to form a whole and a product, artistically speaking as well as commercially. And what do you include on such releases? What is a significant alternate or something worth including? I would say that different takes, meaning a performance of same cue with minor modifications are rather redundant. They rarely illuminate anything but considerations of instrumentation and balancing of sound in the film. Sometimes even those could be included and have been. A truly different approach, a newly written piece to replace something written previously is surely more interesting and a more vital inclusion, also showing how the process of film making has changed the music and composer's approach to a scene. In themselves alternates are not so interesting as in the context of the whole score. They can be of course rip roaringly brilliant music on their own but orphaned without the surrounding music.

Yea, I completely agree and understand... but as an avid preservationist, I get sooo antsy with this stuff! lol... as for what to preserve, that's a good question... All of it? :-p

[Ricard]

The Concorde boot mostly sound like crap.

How the standards have changed since 2000...

[Stefancos]

But he isn't wrong...

[MSM]

So how will this one be different from the already existing 2-cd bootleg?

It'll contain music not on that, as has already been shown in MV's partial track list posting?

Thanks, that' the best reason IMO. I don't have time to follow or to compare all those album breakdown threads...

I'm just afraid that with the entire score, some of the main themes will be overused to fit the needs of the film which will make it harder to appreciate those themes during their powerhouse moments. It kinda happened for 1941, which is why I don't usually listen to the entire score in one sitting. Not a complaint mind you, I'm still over the moon that is being released at all! Just thinking out loud.

Most of these ubber complete fan made 3 or 4cd's Hook sets always include a bunch of redundant stuff and those concert suites from Williams on Williams.

2cd's should be absolutely perfect

Absolutely.

I would recommend the Williams on Williams album though, for the Hook pieces alone.

The arrangements are fantastic, my only complaint is that the Boston Pops probably needed more time to rehearse. A lot of the tempos are painfully slow.

Williams on Williams is one of the best Williams albums ever made, including sounds quality and performances IMO. The least interesting tracks are the SL and the JP tracks. The rest is sublime!

[king mark]

I wish Williams recorded another one for post JP films

BUT, Sony is too cheap to hire an orchestra and too busy recycling their old c.d.'s with 1 unreleased bonus cue

[Marian Schedenig]

Williams on Williams is one of the best Williams albums ever made, including sounds quality and performances IMO. The least interesting tracks are the SL and the JP tracks. The rest is sublime!

I love the fluffy woodwind sound in Flying on that album.

[alan1984]

I may be late to the party on this one. Didn't someone say recently that they'd found a piano demo of a piece that they thought was a huge find in terms of film music history?

Could that have something to do with this release or has that mystery already been solved.

[Wojo]

I think you're the first to put those two stories together. It would be wonderful if the demo was a bit of Hook: The Musical, but we'll see in a month.

[indy4]

I don't know if Hook counts as major film music history, although it's definitely quite popular. That would be fantastic if we got some of the musical, even if it's just piano demos. I wonder if Williams would be singing?

[alan1984]

I can't remember who it was that said it and no idea which thread it came up in. If it was MV though it seems reasonable to assume that something from a John Williams score for a Spielberg film could be considered a significant find even if it wasn't for one of the "big" ones (by that I mean Jaws, Indy, ET, Jurassic).

Even if the two stories aren't linked though, I'm sure this will be an amazing release.

[E.T. & Elliott]

The Boston Pops concert versions of Hook were played at the tempo they were for a reason. They sounded slow to me on early listens, but I soon learned to appreciate them. Hook the score for the film is just a barrage of energy. It's nice to slow things down a bit.

[Marian Schedenig]

Good catch. That was indeed on La-La Land's facebook stream - January 23rd.

[alan1984]

There we go then! With that I'll go ahead and say I think we might be in for a rare treat with this album

[ManofDestiny]

You know, it could really be a 3 CDs set. Not necessary to include the OST, but demo or recording of the songs in the third disc. I means, score recorded for the film can be put in 2 disc, but there could always be others material that we don't know ,right?

There are many 3 CD sets from LLL sell for $29.99. I think it is possible......

[Score_Fan]

Well, there are some really great cues, but so far as I can tell (and I am far from an expert when it comes to "Hook"), most of them are on the OS album, anyway! "Prologue," "Hook-Napped," "You Are the Pan," "Presenting the Hook," etc.

''The Ultimate War" cue is a 20 minute powerhouse in the film, a (almost) completely unused cue when peter first returns to neverland and is confronting hook on the Jolly Roger, great thematic material for when he visits granny wendy until getting to neverland, remembering childhood runs three minutes longer, and the rest is still sublime, but those are my most anticipated cues, along with fixing of micro-edits on the album.

[Wojo]

A piece of music can be played slowly but still sound good as long as it has some energy and moves. If...it...just.......drags....................and doesn't...............move................................................

[Matt C]

Hook definitely deserved the full treatment and 2-CDs is necessary to present the entire score.

Hook is a good score. Make no mistake about that and Williams wrote some of his best music ever for that movie. But the thing is, it's full with energy from beginning to end. It's like listening to the complete score of Cutthroat Island without a break... complete scores can be too much of a good thing.

Okay, I'll listen to the soundtrack again.... maybe it'll be better after revisiting.

[Incanus]

Well, there are some really great cues, but so far as I can tell (and I am far from an expert when it comes to "Hook"), most of them are on the OS album, anyway! "Prologue," "Hook-Napped," "You Are the Pan," "Presenting the Hook," etc.

''The Ultimate War" cue is a 20 minute powerhouse in the film, a (almost) completely unused cue when peter first returns to neverland and is confronting hook on the Jolly Roger, great thematic material for when he visits granny wendy until getting to neverland, remembering childhood runs three minutes longer, and the rest is still sublime, but those are my most anticipated cues, along with fixing of micro-edits on the album.

You just pretty much listed all the major highlights of the unreleased stuff. Not to mention a lot of the Hook music for his scenes and the wonderful Exit Music which is a long development of the Neverland theme.

The arrangements are fantastic, my only complaint is that the Boston Pops probably needed more time to rehearse. A lot of the tempos are painfully slow.

I do not think the tempos are wrong. Williams does slow down some of his faster pieces in his concert arrangements and plays them deliberately more slowly. The Hook pieces on Williams on WIlliams album are rethinking of the film material for concert. I think they are not even trying to match the frenetic pace of some of the original cues, The Lost Boys Ballet especially.

[Delorean90]

"The Ultimate War" in its complete form is the biggest one, giving a much more satisfactory climax--it's a thrilling stretch of action scoring, and the final moments with the last bombastic treatment of Hook's theme is just spine-tingling Williams greatness. Some missing thematic development--including a lot of nice treatments, again, of Hook's theme. One of my favorites is in the "Clock Museum" cue, when Hook, Smee, and Jack walk to the museum (the whole cue is rather good, though). The unused material also ranges from the boisterous "Rufio" cue to the stunning "Exit Music," which is one of my favorite pieces in the whole score (what is the theme there commonly referred to, by the way?). In general, it's just a more well-rounded, rich, fully developed musical story. Not every score calls for this kind of approach, but the length of the score is definitely fitting for its scope.

I can hardly wait for this release. Kudos to MV and the folks at LaLaLand for making this happen!

EDIT: Questions answered!

[Josh500]

I think that when they have the oppourtunity to release these complete scores, to NOT include alternates is disheartening. It may be the last time such an oppourtunity arises for them to do this. And when they chose not to, It makes me wonder if those recordings will simply be lost to time...will we ever see them? Will they ever be released?

Its nit picky, but I worry about those things becuase to me, the most interesting things about scores are the alternates...what they didn't do...decided not to do or tried..and what didn't work. Those show more about what the score is envisioned to be than anything...

At the same time, I do understand why they don't do it... I don't like that they don't...but I understand :-/

From film music preservation point of view you are completely right. It might be the only time and chance to preserve some of these scores and extend their life span by transferring them into digital form. Unfortunately harsh realities of cost and finance play a large part in this, especially in these economically uncertain times. I am sure that most agree that if there was unlimited funding for such things, most scores would see the light of day in complete form if legal minutiae etc. could be overcome.

Alternate material by which I mean here something significantly different from the final material found in the film are fascinating, illuminating the scoring process and how the music evolves and how different things can be tried and scenes approached differently. I think that if there is a chance to preserve and present such material to the public by including it on the complete score releases then it should be done. But it should be noted that complete score releases are not raw material presented to the public but intended to form a whole and a product, artistically speaking as well as commercially. And what do you include on such releases? What is a significant alternate or something worth including? I would say that different takes, meaning a performance of same cue with minor modifications are rather redundant. They rarely illuminate anything but considerations of instrumentation and balancing of sound in the film. Sometimes even those could be included and have been. A truly different approach, a newly written piece to replace something written previously is surely more interesting and a more vital inclusion, also showing how the process of film making has changed the music and composer's approach to a scene. In themselves alternates are not so interesting as in the context of the whole score. They can be of course rip roaringly brilliant music on their own but orphaned without the surrounding music.

Yea, I completely agree and understand... but as an avid preservationist, I get sooo antsy with this stuff! lol... as for what to preserve, that's a good question... All of it? :-p

I complete understand what GoodMusician is saying, but these "alternates" should be regarded as extra tracks, or bonus, and as such only. And it's up to composer only to decide whether to include them on an album for the benefit of the public or not.

Any artist--whether director, composer, writer, etc. etc.--goes through many many many of these "alternates" (an alternate shot, an alternate cue, an alternate draft), and most of them get discarded. In fact, that's what we so nonchalantly call the "creative process." Only the best should see the light of day. It's always been this day, and it will always be this way. Unless, like I said, the artist is willing to offer them to the public for one reason or another as a bonus. And so it should be.

[indy4]

Before we get too familiar with the complete score, what cues has Williams ripped from other sources? All I know of is:
- Hook Napped
- You Are the Pan
- Banning Back Home

[JanBing]

I find it strange that people are really somewhat complaining about complete scores being too tiresome to listen to. You can simply program your CD player (or, after ripping, your MP3 player) to whatever playlist you want... there's NO point in not wanting every single bit of music released, for any soundtrack release.

[indy4]

I agree. I wasn't complaining.

[Miles Prower]

I find it strange that people are really somewhat complaining about complete scores being too tiresome to listen to. You can simply program your CD player (or, after ripping, your MP3 player) to whatever playlist you want... there's NO point in not wanting every single bit of music released, for any soundtrack release.

Yeah, that's my stance for the most part. If someone (the much-hated [apparently] Varese, namely) put out a 78-minute deluxe version of a score I liked, I'd appreciate it instead of complaining about missing music every time the subject comes up. But if everything were released, then I'd get the (it's somewhere between a joy and a challenge) of creating my own listening experience.

Before we get too familiar with the complete score, what cues has Williams ripped from other sources? All I know of is:
- Hook Napped

The other two I knew about, but not Hook-Napped. Where did that one come from?

[Josh500]

I find it strange that people are really somewhat complaining about complete scores being too tiresome to listen to. You can simply program your CD player (or, after ripping, your MP3 player) to whatever playlist you want... there's NO point in not wanting every single bit of music released, for any soundtrack release.

Yep, I was gonna say the same thing, but he said...

Not a complaint mind you, I'm still over the moon that is being released at all! Just thinking out loud.

[Incanus]

Before we get too familiar with the complete score, what cues has Williams ripped from other sources? All I know of is:
- Hook Napped
- You Are the Pan
- Banning Back Home

I think the You Are the Pan similarity is superficial, limited to the opening of the piece. Williams employs the mood of the temp track but not the actual melody. Still undeniably the temp track effect is on the cue.

I find it strange that people are really somewhat complaining about complete scores being too tiresome to listen to. You can simply program your CD player (or, after ripping, your MP3 player) to whatever playlist you want... there's NO point in not wanting every single bit of music released, for any soundtrack release.

Yeah, that's my stance for the most part. If someone (the much-hated [apparently] Varese, namely) put out a 78-minute deluxe version of a score I liked, I'd appreciate it instead of complaining about missing music every time the subject comes up. But if everything were released, then I'd get the (it's somewhere between a joy and a challenge) of creating my own listening experience.

Before we get too familiar with the complete score, what cues has Williams ripped from other sources? All I know of is:
- Hook Napped

The other two I knew about, but not Hook-Napped. Where did that one come from?

From Sea Hawk. The churning up and down running string lines as Peter spots the broken door and as he runs to the nursery are very similar to a cue from Sea Hawk where the main character escapes from the slave ship. But that's about it. Williams' employment of his own themes for the rest of the cue in Hook makes it such a minor issue.

[JanBing]

Yep, I was gonna say the same thing, but he said...

Not a complaint mind you, I'm still over the moon that is being released at all! Just thinking out loud.

Although that just sounds like "I'm happy it's been released at all, although I would've preferred a less complete release"

[Josh500]

And where did Banning and Pan come from?

Yep, I was gonna say the same thing, but he said...

Not a complaint mind you, I'm still over the moon that is being released at all! Just thinking out loud.

Although that just sounds like "I'm happy it's been released at all, although I would've preferred a less complete release"

Yep, like somebody complaining they have won too much money!! "I've won freaking 100 million, though I only wanted 1 million!"

[Score_Fan]

Well, there are some really great cues, but so far as I can tell (and I am far from an expert when it comes to "Hook"), most of them are on the OS album, anyway! "Prologue," "Hook-Napped," "You Are the Pan," "Presenting the Hook," etc.

''The Ultimate War" cue is a 20 minute powerhouse in the film, a (almost) completely unused cue when peter first returns to neverland and is confronting hook on the Jolly Roger, great thematic material for when he visits granny wendy until getting to neverland, remembering childhood runs three minutes longer, and the rest is still sublime, but those are my most anticipated cues, along with fixing of micro-edits on the album.

You just pretty much listed all the major highlights of the unreleased stuff. Not to mention a lot of the Hook music for his scenes and the wonderful Exit Music which is a long development of the Neverland theme.

The arrangements are fantastic, my only complaint is that the Boston Pops probably needed more time to rehearse. A lot of the tempos are painfully slow.

I do not think the tempos are wrong. Williams does slow down some of his faster pieces in his concert arrangements and plays them deliberately more slowly. The Hook pieces on Williams on WIlliams album are rethinking of the film material for concert. I think they are not even trying to match the frenetic pace of some of the original cues, The Lost Boys Ballet especially.

This wait is already killing me...

[Josh500]

So can anyone answer me...?

And where did Banning and Pan come from?

[indy4]

"Banning Back Home" is from a piece by Dave Grusin, I forget which one. And I forget where "You Are the Pan" originates, but the similarities are pretty damning if I remember correctly.

Aren't there parts of the Ultimate War that are supposed to be informed by other music? I remember somebody claiming that at least, I don't remember if it was true.

Yep, I was gonna say the same thing, but he said...

Not a complaint mind you, I'm still over the moon that is being released at all! Just thinking out loud.

Although that just sounds like "I'm happy it's been released at all, although I would've preferred a less complete release"

I'm not saying I'm expecting the themes to be overused, I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. But if that IS the case, then I'll just make my own playlist that offers what I consider to be the best possible listening experience.

[Josh500]

Schindler's Workforce also sounds surprisingly similar to the piece used in the original trailer...

"Banning Back Home" is from a piece by Dave Grusin, I forget which one. And I forget where "You Are the Pan" originates, but the similarities are pretty damning if I remember correctly.

Wasn't it from "The Firm"?

Yeah, I also remember listening to the piece that sounds like "Pan," but I forgot what it was!

[Pasi Tiitinen]

According to some members Delerue owns the rights to these minor chords.

[indy4]

Schindler's Workforce also sounds surprisingly similar to the piece used in the original trailer...

Eh, I don't think that counts. The groove is similar, but that's hardly a reason to call the entire cue unoriginal. If that's true then every jazz chart that uses a swing pattern on cymbals (i.e. the beginning of "Pink Panther Theme") is unoriginal, and there are thousands of those.

[Josh500]

Well, the melody isn't the same, but the whole rhythm, orchestration, mood, and even the solo instrument (clarinet?)...

[KK.]

What you're hearing are just traditional Jewish stylistic devices that Williams chose to employ as well. In now way would I call plagiarism on that.