1781 replies to this topic

[Josh500]

In now way would I call plagiarism on that.

And I never did.

All I am saying is that this is the same thing as with "Pan," "Banning," etc.

[indy4]

I dunno, I think most of the Hook rips are more disappointing.

[Stefancos]

Apparently John Williams was under a huge time pressure, so that might explain why he leaned on the temp track more then usual.

[indy4]

It's understandable, given the length of the score. And I'm sure the time spent on writing the musical numbers ate into his normal composition time, even if many of the melodies themselves were kept. Still, it's a little disappointing.

At the same time, because there's so much music the percentage of unoriginal stuff is not that big I bet.

[Maurizio]

"Banning Back Home" is from a piece by Dave Grusin, I forget which one.

It's called "Mountain Dance":



It was also featured in the 1984 film Falling in Love w/ Robert De Niro and Meryl Streep.

It's clearly a case of "temp love". I wonder if they weren't able to license the original piece and then they asked JW to do something similar.

[Stefancos]

Well, the musical stuff may have given him a thematic basis. but it's still an awfull lot of music to write. Wasn't Hook the film were JW was scoring while newly edited footage was coming in? instead of his usual practice of scoring a fully assembled cut?

[indy4]

Yup, that's what I was trying to say (your first sentence). About the other stuff, Williams said in a WotW interview that WotW was the first time he was scoring before seeing the film. So maybe he was just forgetting about Hook. But somebody mentioned that there's an awful lot of mickey mousing in Hook for it to have been written without the film.

[Josh500]

Yup, that's what I was trying to say (your first sentence). About the other stuff, Williams said in a WotW interview that WotW was the first time he was scoring before seeing the film. So maybe he was just forgetting about Hook. But somebody mentioned that there's an awful lot of mickey mousing in Hook for it to have been written without the film.

Well, doesn't tell us much.

He might have started working on it before seeing the complete movie, and then, once he had the entire movie, he might have adjusted his score to fit the movie...

Sounds to me like a whole lotta work, anyway.

[Maurizio]

The fact is: even Williams has to comply to such requests when they come. If Spielberg asks to follow closely the temp, he agrees and does the job. That's the way things work in Hollywood for film composers. We can despise until death these practices, but it isn't really that big affair.

[Josh500]

Well, there's nothing new under the sun anyway!

Everything sounds like something that's been done before... you just have to find it!

[indy4]

The fact is: even Williams has to comply to such requests when they come. If Spielberg asks to follow closely the temp, he agrees and does the job. That's the way things work in Hollywood for film composers. We can despise until death these practices, but it isn't really that big affair.

Good point. However, I disagree with the last sentence: it absolutely is a big affair. I think temp tracks are really hurting film music as an art. It's not so much the composer's fault as it is the system's fault (or everybody's fault). But it's a horrible practice for film music, even if it may service the film.

[Josh500]

The fact is: even Williams has to comply to such requests when they come. If Spielberg asks to follow closely the temp, he agrees and does the job. That's the way things work in Hollywood for film composers. We can despise until death these practices, but it isn't really that big affair.

Good point. However, I disagree with the last sentence: it absolutely is a big affair. I think temp tracks are really hurting film music as an art. It's not so much the composer's fault as it is the system's fault (or everybody's fault). But it's a horrible practice for film music, even if it may service the film.

No, I disagree with you, it's not that big an affair.

If we didn't know what temp tracks were used, we wouldn't be talking about it anyway! Fact is, every piece written was inspired by some other piece(s).

[KK.]

The fact is: even Williams has to comply to such requests when they come. If Spielberg asks to follow closely the temp, he agrees and does the job. That's the way things work in Hollywood for film composers. We can despise until death these practices, but it isn't really that big affair.

Good point. However, I disagree with the last sentence: it absolutely is a big affair. I think temp tracks are really hurting film music as an art. It's not so much the composer's fault as it is the system's fault (or everybody's fault). But it's a horrible practice for film music, even if it may service the film.

No, I disagree with you, it's not that big an affair.

If we didn't know what temp tracks were used, we wouldn't be talking about it anyway! Fact is, every piece written was inspired by some other piece(s).

[Luke Skywalker]

the thing is Williams makes every composition he borrows from shine with its own light...

BTW the ultimate war by williams, i think it does not have temp trackitis, its mcneellys IJ and the phantom train of doom who borrows heavily from it (and other williams works)

[crocodile]

In the case of McNeely "borrowing" is a very mild word.

Karol

[Josh500]

If you think about it, not just every cue of a film score, every movie, every novel, every picture was inspired by some other piece...

Take "Hook" for example. Is it a completely original movie? Of course not! It was inspired by K.M. Barrie's book, countless pirate films, etc. etc.

[indy4]

The fact is: even Williams has to comply to such requests when they come. If Spielberg asks to follow closely the temp, he agrees and does the job. That's the way things work in Hollywood for film composers. We can despise until death these practices, but it isn't really that big affair.

Good point. However, I disagree with the last sentence: it absolutely is a big affair. I think temp tracks are really hurting film music as an art. It's not so much the composer's fault as it is the system's fault (or everybody's fault). But it's a horrible practice for film music, even if it may service the film.

No, I disagree with you, it's not that big an affair.

If we didn't know what temp tracks were used, we wouldn't be talking about it anyway! Fact is, every piece written was inspired by some other piece(s).

Yes, but there's a difference between using old traditions and building upon them in ways that give a piece of music a new identity.

[Maurizio]

The fact is: even Williams has to comply to such requests when they come. If Spielberg asks to follow closely the temp, he agrees and does the job. That's the way things work in Hollywood for film composers. We can despise until death these practices, but it isn't really that big affair.

Good point. However, I disagree with the last sentence: it absolutely is a big affair. I think temp tracks are really hurting film music as an art. It's not so much the composer's fault as it is the system's fault (or everybody's fault). But it's a horrible practice for film music, even if it may service the film.

I'm not a temp-track apologist. I agree it's not the best practice, nor something uplifting for the composer. But it always has been part of Hollywood film music, so I guess one must deal with it. Some composers are more deft to eschew its traps and find a way to survive it. Others instead are mere xerox machines without any dignity. I agree that in a perfect world a director would trust the composer without imposing him any kind of preconcepted approach.

If you think about it, not just every cue of a film score, every movie, every novel, every picture was inspired by some other piece...

These are the kind of lame broad generalizations typical of middle-man culture. Meh.

[indy4]

The fact is: even Williams has to comply to such requests when they come. If Spielberg asks to follow closely the temp, he agrees and does the job. That's the way things work in Hollywood for film composers. We can despise until death these practices, but it isn't really that big affair.

Good point. However, I disagree with the last sentence: it absolutely is a big affair. I think temp tracks are really hurting film music as an art. It's not so much the composer's fault as it is the system's fault (or everybody's fault). But it's a horrible practice for film music, even if it may service the film.

I'm not a temp-track apologist. I agree it's not the best practice, nor something uplifting for the composer. But it always has been part of Hollywood film music, so I guess one must deal with it. Some composers are more deft to eschew its traps and find a way to survive it. Others instead are mere xerox machines without any dignity. I agree that in a perfect world a director would trust the composer without imposing him any kind of preconcepted approach.

Agreed.

[Josh500]

If you think about it, not just every cue of a film score, every movie, every novel, every picture was inspired by some other piece...

These are the kind of broad generalization typical of middle-man culture. Meh.

Who is talking about a perfect (fantasy) world...? And what ifs?

If you knew anything about the creative process, you'd know this!

The fact that we know which temp tracks were used is what bugs some of you! And not the fact that every piece written was inspired by something else to create something new.

[indy4]

Yes, but there's a difference between using old traditions and building upon them in ways that give a piece of music a new identity.

[Josh500]

Yes, but there's a difference between using old traditions and building upon them in ways that give a piece of music a new identity.

Yes, there is a difference.

But we must also accept that in writing film scores not every single cue can be written using old traditions... especially not when we have 2 hours of music!

[Maurizio]

Who is talking about a perfect (fantasy) world...? And what ifs?

If you knew anything about the creative process, you'd know this!

I despise any kind of broad generalizations and yours make no difference. I do a creative job for a living so I know really well where I'm coming from. You say "every piece of music/movies/art etc. is inspired by something else". Sure, ok. But that's the lamest way to end what could be an interesting conversation about the use of temp-tracks, how composers must deal with it, etc. like I was trying to do. I do not care about who invented the wheel.

[Josh500]

Like I said earlier, this temp-track business is not a big affair.

Temp tracks are and have always been part of the film scoring process.

Sometimes we know which temp tracks were used, because--admittedly--sometimes the composer leans too heavily on temp tracks, sometimes we don't. When we know, we have these discussions. When we don't, we admire how great the composer is!

But again, for me, this is no big deal.

[BloodBoal]

I do not care about who invented the wheel.

I know you said you don't care about that, but in case anyone wonders: it was invented by John Wheel, a young farmboy who had to bring bread to the town near his house every day. It was a hard job for young John, very tiring, and he had backache at the end of each week. One day, as he was playing around his house, he saw a woodlouse rolled up into a ball and rolling down the roof very fast. That gave him the idea of creating something similar that could help him carry the bread more easily. And that is how the wheel was invented.

You can learn about it in the book Wheel'O'Willy: Rolling Through Time by Kevin Tire

[Maurizio]

LOL

[Incanus]

I bet you didn't see that coming.

[Marian Schedenig]

Schindler's Workforce also sounds surprisingly similar to the piece used in the original trailer...

Eh, I don't think that counts. The groove is similar, but that's hardly a reason to call the entire cue unoriginal. If that's true then every jazz chart that uses a swing pattern on cymbals (i.e. the beginning of "Pink Panther Theme") is unoriginal, and there are thousands of those.

Schindler's Workforce does bear a striking resemblance to Kilar's Exodus. And since that was the cue used in the trailer, it can hardly be a coincidence. It's not a clone of the Kilar piece, and the similarity isn't annoying. But it's clearly there.

[Drax]

Struzan must have done several versions of the layout of that particular poster. Here it is again, but you'll notice certain differences here and there.

[Incanus]

Struzan must have done several versions of the layout of that particular poster. Here it is again, but you'll notice certain differences here and there.

If there is an artist that somehow captures the magic of Hollywood in his movie paintings it is surely Struzan. I love his work for films.

[Stefancos]

He's ok.

[Drax]

I usually prefer his one-character pose sheets to his gang of floating heads.

[Goldfingers]

Struzan must have done several versions of the layout of that particular poster. Here it is again, but you'll notice certain differences here and there.

Struzan made the second version for the VHS release and because Dustin Hoffman don't like the first version.
La-La Land took the first version for the cover, i prefer ! Dustin Hoffman have a more sinister look and we can see the Jolly Roger !

Personnally i love the Struzan concept for teaser poster :

[Stefancos]

because Dustin Hoffman don't like the first version.

I pity da fool!

[GoodMusician]

I dunno how familiar you are all to the Islands of Adventure music, but if you listen to "Call to the Adventure" and some of the other general park music (not that designed for the individual islands) it is almost literally a lift from hook from the flying sequence to the never feast. lol

I wasn't aware Banning Back Home was inspired by something? I love that 90's frivolity piece!

[publicist]

I wasn't aware Banning Back Home was inspired by something? I love that 90's frivolity piece!

Who cares, anyway? It's a disposable piece of source music.

[Jason LeBlanc]

You're a very negative person.

[publicist]

BTW the ultimate war by williams, i think it does not have temp trackitis

It just sounds very familiar, but i guess Spielberg and Williams were creatively in a bit of a rut in the early 90's. The latter part of ULTIMATE WAR is much better than the first, though (as it illustrates the duel) and features Williams' best Korngold imitation to date. I still wonder why he didn't edit parts of the long cue together instead of cutting it up midway.

You're a very negative person.

Should i go away?

[Jason LeBlanc]

BTW the ultimate war by williams, i think it does not have temp trackitis

It just sounds very familiar, but i guess Spielberg and Williams were creatively in a bit of a rut in the early 90's. The latter part of ULTIMATE WAR is much better than the first, though (as it illustrates the duel) and features Williams' best Korngold imitation to date. I still wonder why he didn't edit parts of the long cue together instead of cutting it up midway.

I have always loved the second half more than the first as well. It's just amazing.

[GoodMusician]

I wasn't aware Banning Back Home was inspired by something? I love that 90's frivolity piece!

Who cares, anyway? It's a disposable piece of source music.

I thought source music had a 'source' heh... I love that cue honestly. It reminds me of the 90's playing The Sims or those old computer golf/put put games which had that sort of 90's music in it

And I do think you're awefully negative/ critical lol