66 replies to this topic

[Miles Prower]

We already make it crystal clear that we don't want to hear what the composer originally intended when we bastardize his album presentations to load the music onto our iPod, rearrange and rename the tracks, adjust the volume, rip DVD rear channels, mix in video game music, type missing pieces out on MIDI keyboards to listen to with nifty sound fonts, split tracks, combine tracks, delete tracks, and still feel good about ourselves in the morning.

You do all that?

Wow. Must require lots of time and stamina.

I wouldn't say so. With every score I listen to, I go in and customize it for my iPod - trim a little bit, raise the volume, snip out this part or that dull bit, switch in the album track, etc. If it's the way I want it, I'm more likely to enjoy it.

Sometimes I can keep the album arrangement as is, because it's a good way to spend [x] minutes, but if my first exposure to it is the album and I like it, I'll want more music from it - an approach that has led me to a lot more good music than just staying with OSTs. So I have to work a little at it - eh, it's for good music, the work is worth it.

But yeah, like you said, many ways to Rome.

[Thor]

True. Whatever suits one's preferences etc.. I guess I'm kinda lucky to connect so well with the way Williams does things that I don't need to change a second.

[KK.]

I like Williams' album presentations, that and I'm usually too lazy to change anything. I don't like editing the albums I own. I just rip them onto my ipod and thats about it.

[indy4]

What about when Wagner introduces the main thematic material in his opera overtures etc.? Does that 'spoil' the narrative for you guys too?

I'm not familiar enough with Wagner's work to refute that specific statement, but since I take the "etc" to mean this applies to most other types of overtures, I will respond to that. Overtures often only include the flashiest, most straightforward presentations of a theme. Thus in that sense they are NOT fully developed. An example is West Side Story. By the end of the score, "Maria," "Somewhere" and "I Have a Love" have all combined to form a new musical idea. We don't hear this final stage of development in the overture, so there's still quite a bit of development left. In these instances, I think an overture is meant to familiarize one with the material so that when it's used in the score, it has already had time to grow on the listener. It is familiar enough to be enjoyable.

Whereas for many JW scores, the concert version of a theme presents the final development of that theme. For instance, listening to "Hymn to the Fallen" in the beginning robs Saving Private Ryan of its development because that concert version is the culminating point of the score.

Of course these differences aren't always the case--"Irina's Theme," for instance, isn't in its fully developed form in the concert version, so I don't think it damages the listening experience to hear it before the rest of the score, and I'm sure I could find some overtures that are in their fully developed form--but usually I think this is the case.

I vote this the dumbest poll on the site.

Say what you want about my polls Joey, but at least my contributions to this board go beyond bragging about how old I am, insulting members who disagree with me, and misspelling elementary school level words like "liar." Also, two pages of discussion and 18 participants in the poll says that a lot of people on this MB think that this is a worthwhile thread.

[Wojo]

[Thor]

I'm not familiar enough with Wagner's work to refute that specific statement, but since I take the "etc" to mean this applies to most other types of overtures, I will respond to that. Overtures often only include the flashiest, most straightforward presentations of a theme. Thus in that sense they are NOT fully developed. An example is West Side Story. By the end of the score, "Maria," "Somewhere" and "I Have a Love" have all combined to form a new musical idea. We don't hear this final stage of development in the overture, so there's still quite a bit of development left. In these instances, I think an overture is meant to familiarize one with the material so that when it's used in the score, it has already had time to grow on the listener. It is familiar enough to be enjoyable.

Whereas for many JW scores, the concert version of a theme presents the final development of that theme. For instance, listening to "Hymn to the Fallen" in the beginning robs Saving Private Ryan of its development because that concert version is the culminating point of the score.

Hmm....it's fascinating to read this, because it's something that has never really been an issue to me (i.e. how 'developped' the first presentation of the themes are). Even if it's the same exact cue repeated verbatim in the beginning and end -- which doesn't happen all that often, when I think about it -- it seems so natural to the whole piece. It's as if it says "here's the heart of the piece you're about to hear, its very essence", then depart from that to explore other timbres, hopefully with some sort of build-up (especially towards the end), and then return to the heart at the end as a reminder. It basically fulfills the demands of tonal music in western culture, i.e. returning to a tonal centre for comfort -- except that it's not only a tonal centre, but a thematic centre as well. It's simply a structure or architecture that makes a lot of sense, and gives the experience a sense of unity.

But I guess it wouldn't be any fun if we all experienced music (and musical structure) the same way.

As I said, though, it's only ONE way to make sense out of a score on CD. There are plenty of other ways too, that may be just as, if not even more, rewarding. The important thing is only to rearrange it for listening in some form or fashion.

[Pasi Tiitinen]

and misspelling elementary school level words like "liar."

[Drax]

I listen to the album any damn way I want to because the album arranger is a bloody idiot who forgets that he already put that track on there.

[Wojo]

As I said, though, it's only ONE way to make sense out of a score on CD. There are plenty of other ways too, that may be just as, if not even more, rewarding. The important thing is only to rearrange it for listening in some form or fashion.

Rearrange an album for listening? Um, what else could we do? Were you under the impression that some of us simply buy these things to look at? Or smell? Or rub our pinkies around the spindle hole for pleasure?

Personally, I like my CDs crushed over ice with a mint sprig and side of fava beans, but that's just me.

[Thor]

You know what I mean.

[Wojo]

Over and over again.

[indy4]

I'm not familiar enough with Wagner's work to refute that specific statement, but since I take the "etc" to mean this applies to most other types of overtures, I will respond to that. Overtures often only include the flashiest, most straightforward presentations of a theme. Thus in that sense they are NOT fully developed. An example is West Side Story. By the end of the score, "Maria," "Somewhere" and "I Have a Love" have all combined to form a new musical idea. We don't hear this final stage of development in the overture, so there's still quite a bit of development left. In these instances, I think an overture is meant to familiarize one with the material so that when it's used in the score, it has already had time to grow on the listener. It is familiar enough to be enjoyable.

Whereas for many JW scores, the concert version of a theme presents the final development of that theme. For instance, listening to "Hymn to the Fallen" in the beginning robs Saving Private Ryan of its development because that concert version is the culminating point of the score.

Hmm....it's fascinating to read this, because it's something that has never really been an issue to me (i.e. how 'developped' the first presentation of the themes are). Even if it's the same exact cue repeated verbatim in the beginning and end -- which doesn't happen all that often, when I think about it -- it seems so natural to the whole piece. It's as if it says "here's the heart of the piece you're about to hear, its very essence", then depart from that to explore other timbres, hopefully with some sort of build-up (especially towards the end), and then return to the heart at the end as a reminder. It basically fulfills the demands of tonal music in western culture, i.e. returning to a tonal centre for comfort -- except that it's not only a tonal centre, but a thematic centre as well. It's simply a structure or architecture that makes a lot of sense, and gives the experience a sense of unity.

But I guess it wouldn't be any fun if we all experienced music (and musical structure) the same way.

As I said, though, it's only ONE way to make sense out of a score on CD. There are plenty of other ways too, that may be just as, if not even more, rewarding. The important thing is only to rearrange it for listening in some form or fashion.

Fair enough. It is a fascinating conversation, I agree. And in the end it doesn't really matter, but it's still interesting to see the different perspectives on this issue.

[Incanus]

In some cases I think the full development of the theme at the beginning of the album undermines the dramatic arc of the CD so I omit it from the listening experience. Some examples are Seven Years in Tibet, Angela's Ashes, Amistad and the aforementioned Saving Private Ryan. Sometimes it is more satisfying to have a thematic closure and lengthiest development at the end of the experience to sum it all up.

[oierem]

What about when Wagner introduces the main thematic material in his opera overtures etc.? Does that 'spoil' the narrative for you guys too?

I'm not familiar enough with Wagner's work to refute that specific statement, but since I take the "etc" to mean this applies to most other types of overtures, I will respond to that. Overtures often only include the flashiest, most straightforward presentations of a theme. Thus in that sense they are NOT fully developed. An example is West Side Story. By the end of the score, "Maria," "Somewhere" and "I Have a Love" have all combined to form a new musical idea. We don't hear this final stage of development in the overture, so there's still quite a bit of development left. In these instances, I think an overture is meant to familiarize one with the material so that when it's used in the score, it has already had time to grow on the listener. It is familiar enough to be enjoyable.

Whereas for many JW scores, the concert version of a theme presents the final development of that theme. For instance, listening to "Hymn to the Fallen" in the beginning robs Saving Private Ryan of its development because that concert version is the culminating point of the score.

Of course these differences aren't always the case--"Irina's Theme," for instance, isn't in its fully developed form in the concert version, so I don't think it damages the listening experience to hear it before the rest of the score, and I'm sure I could find some overtures that are in their fully developed form--but usually I think this is the case.

Agreed. Raiders is another example in wich the concert version is the final development of the theme. If you hear it at the beginning it ruins the slow development of the theme (you don't hear a complete version of the theme until the second half of the movie).

[Jason LeBlanc]

Raiders is another example in wich the concert version is the final development of the theme. If you hear it at the beginning it ruins the slow development of the theme (you don't hear a complete version of the theme until the second half of the movie).

Exactly!

[Thor]

I think it sets the tone perfectly, establishing the character and his theme in all its glory (both the A-theme and B-theme), as well as the love theme. And -- in fact -- the whole tone of adventure universe. I don't really think 'Indiana Jones' when I listen to the soundtrack (or at least try not to). I think more abstract; like a symphonic piece for a hero and his exotic journeys. Like Sigfried's journey in RING DER NIBELUNGEN, to stay with Wagner. Or other times something else altogether.

[Wojo]

You'll never change, and we'll never change. Joey's sentiments are pretty much correct.

[Chaac]

I usually don't think "Indiana Jones" when I listen to it either. It's just that the composition does not start there.

You'll never change, and we'll never change. Joey's sentiments are pretty much correct.

I wouldn't ask for someone to change, but it annoys me when someone keeps bringing the same points over and over as if they're up to the myriad of valuable and different answers he's already been given. Such an unscientific mindset is alien to me.

[Thor]

I usually don't think "Indiana Jones" when I listen to it either. It's just that the composition does not start there.

You'll never change, and we'll never change. Joey's sentiments are pretty much correct.

I wouldn't ask for someone to change, but it annoys me when someone keeps bringing the same points over and over as if they're up to the myriad of valuable and different answers he's already been given. Such an unscientific mindset is alien to me.

I don't know what science's got to do with anything.

If someone has an opinion on something, it only makes sense that said opinion or preference or whatever pops up when the relevant topic is debated, wouldn't you agree? Or do you think it changes from time to time?

Here we are talking about our relationship to Williams' way of arranging albums, so it is only natural that my preference on album rearrangement informs the opinion I have. Just as the opposite preference informs yours.

The frequency of stated opinions is directly proportionate to the frequency of how often the topic comes up.

[Chaac]

Edited.

[Jason LeBlanc]

Stay on topic guys. We don't need another debate about Thor's preferences. It's been done endless amounts of times and never ends well. if you want to discuss it with him, do it privately or on another board.

[Wojo]

[indy4]

I think it sets the tone perfectly, establishing the character and his theme in all its glory (both the A-theme and B-theme), as well as the love theme. And -- in fact -- the whole tone of adventure universe. I don't really think 'Indiana Jones' when I listen to the soundtrack (or at least try not to). I think more abstract; like a symphonic piece for a hero and his exotic journeys. Like Sigfried's journey in RING DER NIBELUNGEN, to stay with Wagner. Or other times something else altogether.

You don't need to associate a specific character with a piece of music to enjoy thematic development. I don't think "Indiana Jones" when I listen to Raiders either, but I think it's a more satisfying experience to hear pieces of the main theme develop, regardless of whether or not that theme represents Harrison Ford with a fedora.

[Wojo]

I have watched the first three Indy films too many times to simply detatch thoughts of the movie from my mind's eye when I listen to the music.

I actually listened to Raiders on the way to class tonight, and even from the moments that Indy flees the Hovitos to when he flies to Nepal, the appearances of the Raiders March are much more restrained than they are as presented during the concert version that precedes the "real" main titles.

So if you want to listen to the score with the attitude that the theme should develop during the movie, the concert version ruins the surprise. But if you just have to listen to the Indiana Jones theme to get into the mood to listen to Indiana Jones music, feel free to leave it there.

Personally, I am sick and tired of hearing the Raiders March concert piece. It's the most boring and least interesting passage in the entire first three Indiana Jones films because it's been played to death, both outside the film in pop culture and reference over and over again in the films. I haven't said it's not good or that I hate it. Nope. I just don't want to listen to it more than I have to. And since it doesn't "go there" in the movie sequence, I don't feel obligated to keep it there just because it's there on the CD.

~*~

Conversely, Jerry Goldsmith introduces his Star Trek films with a fully developed presentation of the main theme, most closely identified with the Starship Enterprise itself. It gets a wonderful treatment as Kirk and the audience are introduced to the refit vessel in TMP, but the theme has already been thrown on the audience in the main titles. And the love theme was fully introduced if you watch the oveture. I'm not going to excise these from the playlist based on my dislike for the fake Raiders overture....simply because these pieces are there in the movie, while not in Raiders. That's really all that matters.

~*~

But as for other Williams movies like Angela's Ashes, Amistad, Schindler's List, Seven Years in Tibet....I really don't care if I ever see those films in my life, so I don't care if they open with a redundant concert prologue. I leave those albums intact because they work as simply music, where my brain wanders while I listen to them without any filmed visuals at all, just what I imagine.

[indy4]

But as for other Williams movies like Angela's Ashes, Amistad, Schindler's List, Seven Years in Tibet....I really don't care if I ever see those films in my life, so I don't care if they open with a redundant concert prologue. I leave those albums intact because they work as simply music, where my brain wanders while I listen to them without any filmed visuals at all, just what I imagine.

Again, I'm not sure why saving a concert version until the end of an album is being equated with using the soundtrack as a means of reliving the film. Regardless of whether or not the story is about Indiana Jones or abstract musical ideas, the story being told changes when a concert version is placed in the front of the listening experience.

[Wojo]

Great.

[Thor]

But as for other Williams movies like Angela's Ashes, Amistad, Schindler's List, Seven Years in Tibet....I really don't care if I ever see those films in my life, so I don't care if they open with a redundant concert prologue. I leave those albums intact because they work as simply music, where my brain wanders while I listen to them without any filmed visuals at all, just what I imagine.

Again, I'm not sure why saving a concert version until the end of an album is being equated with using the soundtrack as a means of reliving the film. Regardless of whether or not the story is about Indiana Jones or abstract musical ideas, the story being told changes when a concert version is placed in the front of the listening experience.

Sure, it may change. But that's what I like. It does its own thing, it tells its own story, separated from the film. What matters on CD is that you can mix and trix the musical 'raw material' from the film and reshape it into something new, based purely on musical logic. Putting the concert version in front is one such way. It basically adopts the mechanisms from certain classical programmatic music, musicals, progressive rock albums and so on, many of which introduce their albums that way. It's like 'an aural pre-film in your mind's eye'. Then after that, you delve into the adapted, musical storytelling. And at the end, you get a recap of the opening, which makes the whole story stand out, unified, in your mind. A fully fleshed out, coherent experience.

That being said, I love other approaches too. Like the (original) album of CLOSE ENCOUNTERS, which begins very mysterioso, then a 'big bang' and then it develops from there untill the great, Debussy-ian climax towards the end. With several individual setpieces along the way (like Barry's abduction). Also works like gangbusters. In short, I'm open to all forms of musical planning and arranging, as long as it's done by a competent album producer (or the composer him/herself).