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What are the differences between Raiders March and Tintin's Heroic Theme in terms of what they express?


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Poll: Which do you prefer? (I am sure RM will win, but who knows? Maybe some of you prefer this "new and fresh" heroic theme by JW!) (27 member(s) have cast votes)

Which do you prefer?

  1. Raiders March (22 votes [81.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 81.48%

  2. Tintin's Heroic Theme (5 votes [18.52%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.52%

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#41 crocodile

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 09:02 PM

It's Tin Tin!

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#42 Wojo

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 09:03 PM

The horse is dead. Why do we continue to beat it?

#43 crocodile

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 09:04 PM

No it isn't. It came back home with Albert. Don't you remember?

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"Modern, serious music has become embroiled in an intellectual discussion that has no place in music. Certainly, the great composer of the past were geniuses and used their intellect, but only to serve their emotions and guide their craft. Not to dictate to them what they should or shouldn't write" - Michael Kamen, 1995

#44 hornist

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:11 PM

Dear Wojo.

You said you never heard the Tintin theme. And you also said you never seen the film.

Is that the truth?

If it is, why?

#45 indy4

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 01:06 AM


I dunno, pretty much every main theme from Tintin is based on Tintin's theme,


Haddock's Theme, the Scroll Theme, the villain's theme, Sir Red Rackham's Theme, the Dueling Theme, Snowy's theme are based on Tintin's Theme?

Just Haddock, Unicorn theme, Adventure Continues, and Snowy's theme. But Sir Francis' theme is based on Haddock's theme, and the Red Rackam's theme is based on Sakharine's theme.
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#46 Josh500

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:46 AM

Development is overrated. When you strip both themes to their essence, it becomes clear that Tintin is the product of a subtler and more mature compositional voice.


You hit the nail on the head! That's exactly what I was thinking too... :)

Tintin's theme is deceptively simple, and yet incredibly well thought through, IMO. The melody is not as obviously and blatantly heroic as Indy's theme, and yet it fits Tintin's heroic character perfectly!

Indeed, in comparison the Raiders March comes of as gaudy, obvious and unsophisticated.


Are you being sarcastic? :blink:

Raiders March may be a little gaudy and obvious, but there's nothing unsophisticated about it! Besides, Indy himself is a little gaudy and obvious, so the theme fits perfectly here too.

Tintin

Wait until it will have many different takes in the fortcoming Tintin sequels, after
raising to it to the full glory via many modulation. JW at his best.

Now you are used to all JW's three Indy scores. You will wait and see.


Yes!!

#47 Stefancos

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:49 AM

Wait, you accuse ME of being sarcastic, yet you agree with Hlao Roo???

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#48 Josh500

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:51 AM

You really think Raiders March is unsophisticated?

you agree with Hlao Roo???


Yeah, this might be the first time that ever happened! :lol:

#49 Stefancos

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:52 AM

He was being sarcastic!

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#50 Josh500

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:54 AM

Well, even so, I happen to agree with him there!

When you strip both themes to their essence, it becomes clear that Tintin is the product of a subtler and more mature compositional voice.



#51 Stefancos

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:57 AM

No you blithering idiot! If someone is sarcastically giving an opinion, and you agree with that opinion as if it was serious, then you are not actually agreeing with him!

Hlao Roo is reading your posts and laughing his ass of!

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#52 Josh500

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:00 AM

No you blithering idiot! If someone is sarcastically giving an opinion, and you agree with that opinion as if it was serious, then you are not actually agreeing with him!

Hlao Roo is reading your posts and laughing his ass of!


No you moron! :rolleyes:

If somebody writes something (without any indication that what he wrote was sarcastic--no emoticon or whatever), and I happen to agree with what he wrote, then of course I will take it seriously!

Whether that's what he really thinks or not, is beside the point! That's what I think!

#53 Stefancos

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:04 AM

No indication???

It's a post by Hlao Roo!

Give me strength!

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#54 Josh500

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:21 AM

It's a post by Hlao Roo!


Well, obviously I don't spend nearly as much time here, and I am not as familiar with everybody's posting idiosyncrasies as you seem to be!

Still yeah, you have a point!



I dunno, pretty much every main theme from Tintin is based on Tintin's theme,


Haddock's Theme, the Scroll Theme, the villain's theme, Sir Red Rackham's Theme, the Dueling Theme, Snowy's theme are based on Tintin's Theme?

Just Haddock, Unicorn theme, Adventure Continues, and Snowy's theme. But Sir Francis' theme is based on Haddock's theme, and the Red Rackam's theme is based on Sakharine's theme.


:lol:

And Thomson and Thompson's theme?

#55 Datameister

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 12:27 PM


Tintin's theme is an enormous missed opportunity. Quite possibly Williams' least memorable theme for a titular character. It's grown on me a bit, but mostly only in the statements where the orchestration is interesting enough to overcome the melodic mediocrity. The Raiders March, on the other hand, is brilliant and memorable, and it wins easily.

Let me guess. Tintin's theme rubs you the wrong way! :P


No...it doesn't rub me at all! :P

#56 Josh500

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 12:31 PM

Well, of course I knew that Tintin's heroic theme would not be as popular as Raiders March, sure, but Tintin's theme doesn't seem to be regarded very highly at all here (with a few exceptions)...

#57 indy4

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 04:51 PM




I dunno, pretty much every main theme from Tintin is based on Tintin's theme,


Haddock's Theme, the Scroll Theme, the villain's theme, Sir Red Rackham's Theme, the Dueling Theme, Snowy's theme are based on Tintin's Theme?

Just Haddock, Unicorn theme, Adventure Continues, and Snowy's theme. But Sir Francis' theme is based on Haddock's theme, and the Red Rackam's theme is based on Sakharine's theme.


:lol:

And Thomson and Thompson's theme?

I'm being serious. Thomson and Thompson's theme is not based on Tintin's, although the piano counterline is hinted at in the end of "Adventure of Tintin."
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#58 Michael

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 06:59 PM

You know, I hadn't notice how Sir Francis and Rackham's Theme are based around his grandson's themes! I assumed there was a similarity, but I didn't notice until now...

This score is full of surprises! It's a mistery why is so underrated around here...
If you start taking yourself seriously, then you’re in deep trouble! - Jerry Goldsmith

#59 Stefancos

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 07:00 PM

Underrated? people here just spend moths waxing lyrical about it!

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#60 Incanus

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 07:04 PM

You know, I hadn't notice how Sir Francis and Rackham's Theme are based around his grandson's themes! I assumed there was a similarity, but I didn't notice until now...

This score is full of surprises! It's a mistery why is so underrated around here...

Well not underrated. Undiscussed more like it. Most people burned themselves out on it during the sub-forum phase.

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I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-


#61 indy4

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 08:49 PM

You know, I hadn't notice how Sir Francis and Rackham's Theme are based around his grandson's themes! I assumed there was a similarity, but I didn't notice until now...

This score is full of surprises! It's a mistery why is so underrated around here...

Yup! One thing I love about Tintin is that there's always new details to pick up.
For updates on a new CD/short film featuring brand new concert works by John Williams, Michael Giacchino, Alexandre Desplat, Randy Newman, Don Davis and Bruce Broughton, "like" this facebook page! https://www.facebook.com/MontageFilmComposers

#62 Michael

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:00 PM

Well not underrated. Undiscussed more like it. Most people burned themselves out on it during the sub-forum phase.



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If you start taking yourself seriously, then you’re in deep trouble! - Jerry Goldsmith

#63 Marcus

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:24 AM


You know, I hadn't notice how Sir Francis and Rackham's Theme are based around hisgrandson's themes! I assumed there was a similarity, but I didn't notice until now...

This score is full of surprises! It's a mistery why is so underrated around here...

Yup! One thing I love about Tintin is that there's always new details to pick up.




Surely someone must have already mentioned this, but in case not: I love how "The Adventure Continues" is actually a variation of Haddock's theme! Cleverly done, and similar in technique (although certainly not in style!) to Sayuri's theme being a variation of Chiyo's theme in MoaG.

As to Tintin's theme, I think it's very well thought-out, and I feel that those who lament its brevity might perhaps judge it as something it simply was not designed to be: a big franchise theme!

It is a perfect musical depiction of several aspects of Tintin's character, certainly, but more importantly, it serves as a core for the series' musical universe (the #4-5-1 intervallic cadence being its signature).

(And, for the sake of clarity, by "Tintin's theme", I'm referring to the heroic fanfare, not the
"puzzle theme", and not the "danger theme")


#64 Josh500

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 06:50 PM



You know, I hadn't notice how Sir Francis and Rackham's Theme are based around hisgrandson's themes! I assumed there was a similarity, but I didn't notice until now...

This score is full of surprises! It's a mistery why is so underrated around here...

Yup! One thing I love about Tintin is that there's always new details to pick up.




Surely someone must have already mentioned this, but in case not: I love how "The Adventure Continues" is actually a variation of Haddock's theme! Cleverly done, and similar in technique (although certainly not in style!) to Sayuri's theme being a variation of Chiyo's theme in MoaG.

As to Tintin's theme, I think it's very well thought-out, and I feel that those who lament its brevity might perhaps judge it as something it simply was not designed to be: a big franchise theme!

It is a perfect musical depiction of several aspects of Tintin's character, certainly, but more importantly, it serves as a core for the series' musical universe (the #4-5-1 intervallic cadence being its signature).

(And, for the sake of clarity, by "Tintin's theme", I'm referring to the heroic fanfare, not the
"puzzle theme", and not the "danger theme")


I am actually thinking that some people are reading too much into it. I don't buy the fact that "Tintin's heroic theme" is actually a variation of half the themes in this score, nor that the "Adventure Continues" is based on "Haddock's theme" or vice versa.

Like it has been said, if you looked (or listened) hard enough, you could find connections between any two themes...

#65 indy4

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:19 PM



You know, I hadn't notice how Sir Francis and Rackham's Theme are based around hisgrandson's themes! I assumed there was a similarity, but I didn't notice until now...

This score is full of surprises! It's a mistery why is so underrated around here...

Yup! One thing I love about Tintin is that there's always new details to pick up.




Surely someone must have already mentioned this, but in case not: I love how "The Adventure Continues" is actually a variation of Haddock's theme! Cleverly done, and similar in technique (although certainly not in style!) to Sayuri's theme being a variation of Chiyo's theme in MoaG.

As to Tintin's theme, I think it's very well thought-out, and I feel that those who lament its brevity might perhaps judge it as something it simply was not designed to be: a big franchise theme!

It is a perfect musical depiction of several aspects of Tintin's character, certainly, but more importantly, it serves as a core for the series' musical universe (the #4-5-1 intervallic cadence being its signature).

(And, for the sake of clarity, by "Tintin's theme", I'm referring to the heroic fanfare, not the
"puzzle theme", and not the "danger theme")

Oh, nice observation! I always assumed it was a variation on Tintin's theme, but now I see you're definitely right - that's Haddock for sure! Although I do think that Williams meant to use elements from Tintin's theme, i.e. starting the "Adventures Continues" on an upbeat instead of a downbeat.




You know, I hadn't notice how Sir Francis and Rackham's Theme are based around hisgrandson's themes! I assumed there was a similarity, but I didn't notice until now...

This score is full of surprises! It's a mistery why is so underrated around here...

Yup! One thing I love about Tintin is that there's always new details to pick up.




Surely someone must have already mentioned this, but in case not: I love how "The Adventure Continues" is actually a variation of Haddock's theme! Cleverly done, and similar in technique (although certainly not in style!) to Sayuri's theme being a variation of Chiyo's theme in MoaG.

As to Tintin's theme, I think it's very well thought-out, and I feel that those who lament its brevity might perhaps judge it as something it simply was not designed to be: a big franchise theme!

It is a perfect musical depiction of several aspects of Tintin's character, certainly, but more importantly, it serves as a core for the series' musical universe (the #4-5-1 intervallic cadence being its signature).

(And, for the sake of clarity, by "Tintin's theme", I'm referring to the heroic fanfare, not the
"puzzle theme", and not the "danger theme")


I am actually thinking that some people are reading too much into it. I don't buy the fact that "Tintin's heroic theme" is actually a variation of half the themes in this score, nor that the "Adventure Continues" is based on "Haddock's theme" or vice versa.

Like it has been said, if you looked (or listened) hard enough, you could find connections between any two themes...

The thing is, if you look at almost any John Williams score (especially the ones written in the last 20 or so years), you'll find a ton of these thematic connections between related themes in a score. Geisha, KotCS, Far and Away, War Horse, the prequels, E.T., Accidental Tourist, just to name a few...all have it. I don't think it's a coincidence, in fact JW isn't the first to do it (he borrowed the idea from Wagner).
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#66 Josh500

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:21 PM

You read all these complex thematic connections in Tintin, and yet you don't like the action cues because they feel "jerky"?

:lol:

#67 indy4

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:24 PM

You read all these complex thematic connections in Tintin, and yet you don't like the action cues because they feel "jerky"?

:lol:

Yes, for every score there's an intellectual aspect to it and an emotional aspect. The best scores excel at both, IMO (that's why John Williams' music is so good for me--it's both accessible and intelligent) and many of Tintin's action cues are too difficult for me to appreciate emotionally due to the jerkiness.
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#68 Josh500

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:27 PM


You read all these complex thematic connections in Tintin, and yet you don't like the action cues because they feel "jerky"?

:lol:

Yes, for every score there's an intellectual aspect to it and an emotional aspect. A good score excels in both, IMO (that's why John Williams' music is so good for me--it's both accessible and intelligent) and many of Tintin's action cues are too difficult for me to appreciate due to the jerkiness.


Yeah well, there's no accounting for taste!

For me, the action cues in Tintin are some of the best JW has ever written! In many ways, more original and listenable than some of the action cues in the Star Wars prequels...

#69 Faleel

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:45 AM

sorry, Escape from Naboo pounds Escape from the Karabookjan.

Among all the things I have done in my short and pitiful life, becoming an inside joke on JWFAN is the one I'm the least proud of.


The additional passage was interesting but not really something I would consider absolutely essential.


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#70 Stefancos

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 09:14 PM

Indeed!

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