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What are the differences between Raiders March and Tintin's Heroic Theme in terms of what they express?


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Poll: Which do you prefer? (I am sure RM will win, but who knows? Maybe some of you prefer this "new and fresh" heroic theme by JW!) (27 member(s) have cast votes)

Which do you prefer?

  1. Raiders March (22 votes [81.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 81.48%

  2. Tintin's Heroic Theme (5 votes [18.52%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.52%

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#1 Josh500

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:33 PM

If you take the most heroic renditions of Raiders March ("Flight from Peru," "Desert Chase," "The German Sub") and the most heroic renditions of Tintin's Heroic Theme ("Escape from Karaboudjan" and "Pursuit of the Falcon"), that is. Do you think these 2 themes are interchangeable? Why? Why not?

In my opinion, the Raiders March is overly optimistic and cheerful, very heroic but slightly clumsy and funny too; it perfectly expresses the sense of Indy "being in over his head (yet again!)."

Tintin's Theme on the other hand strikes me as less optimistic, less cheerful, not clumsy or funny whatsoever; it's still very heroic but somewhat in a bookish, studious, and more detached way (I am not sure whether you'd agree here, but tell me what you think!). In a way, it's more "balanced" than Raiders March, i.e. there isn't as much going on here, emotionally (although the fact that Tintin's theme is considerably shorter may have something to do with it, of course).

Well? What's your opinion?

#2 BloodBoal

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:46 PM

Tintin's theme, of course ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_EK_tFz9ug

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#3 Josh500

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:53 PM

IMO Tintin's theme is one of the most interesting and catchy themes JW wrote in a long time!

#4 Incanus

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:56 PM

Tintin actually doesn't have just one but 3 different thematic identities in the film. There is the main heroic theme, the secondary sleuthing/action theme and finally the small quirky motif for solving riddles. Williams treats each of these areas with its own thematic idea and I would love to hear him combine all three into a concert suite. :)

Ars superior est vita hominum.

 

"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-

 

I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-


#5 Josh500

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:57 PM

I've been underestimating this theme for some time... Sure, there's Haddock's Theme, the Dueling theme, Snowy's theme, etc. which are all more complex than Tintin's theme, but Tintin's theme is quite wonderful to listen to!

The closest thing to Raiders March and Luke Skywalker's theme JW wrote, maybe. Well, in terms of a heroic theme played principally by a trumpet (or a French horn), that is.

#6 Charlie Brigden

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:57 PM

When I hear Tintin's theme I think of Allo Allo.

When I hear the Raiders March I think of Harrison Ford being punched.

Indy wins!
Repeat the JWFan pledge after me: 'I hereby recognise John Towner Williams' place in the world as the great composer there has ever been, and I therefore renounce the works of Rozsa, Korngold, Herrmann, Horner, Kamen, Giacchino (unless the prophecy is fulfilled and he becomes the heir to JTW) and Goldsmith, especially Goldsmith. I understand that if I ever refer to Jurassic Park as anything less than "a masterpiece sixty-five million years in the making" I will be resigned to living out my days at the Zimmershrine.'

#7 Josh500

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 01:13 PM

Tintin actually doesn't have just one but 3 different thematic identities in the film. There is the main heroic theme, the secondary sleuthing/action theme and finally the small quirky motif for solving riddles. Williams treats each of these areas with its own thematic idea and I would love to hear him combine all three into a concert suite. :)


Yes. Definitely!

And if JW does Tintin 2 as well, maybe we'll get more themes associated with Tintin and his escapades! :)

Tintin's theme, of course ;)


Just so we all know what we're talking about... ;)



#8 Charlie Brigden

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 01:23 PM

Oh that one. That reminds of Jake Lloyd.

Indy still wins!
Repeat the JWFan pledge after me: 'I hereby recognise John Towner Williams' place in the world as the great composer there has ever been, and I therefore renounce the works of Rozsa, Korngold, Herrmann, Horner, Kamen, Giacchino (unless the prophecy is fulfilled and he becomes the heir to JTW) and Goldsmith, especially Goldsmith. I understand that if I ever refer to Jurassic Park as anything less than "a masterpiece sixty-five million years in the making" I will be resigned to living out my days at the Zimmershrine.'

#9 Datameister

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 01:24 PM

Tintin's theme is an enormous missed opportunity. Quite possibly Williams' least memorable theme for a titular character. It's grown on me a bit, but mostly only in the statements where the orchestration is interesting enough to overcome the melodic mediocrity. The Raiders March, on the other hand, is brilliant and memorable, and it wins easily.

#10 Josh500

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 01:26 PM

Tintin's theme is an enormous missed opportunity. Quite possibly Williams' least memorable theme for a titular character. It's grown on me a bit, but mostly only in the statements where the orchestration is interesting enough to overcome the melodic mediocrity. The Raiders March, on the other hand, is brilliant and memorable, and it wins easily.

Let me guess. Tintin's theme rubs you the wrong way! :P

But I gotta say, I disagree with you. Tintin's theme is perfect for the character. And as to orchestration... an interesting orchestration is needed for Raiders March too, duh. Still, yeah, a concert version on the OS album would have been nice... although, of course, we might still be getting that!

#11 alicebrallice

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 01:50 PM

I'll have to agree with datameister. sadly, tintin's theme didn't do much for me at all. same thing with the whole score.

ok... sir francis and the unicorn is pretty fantastic, I must admit.

#12 Josh500

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:01 PM

I'll have to agree with datameister. sadly, tintin's theme didn't do much for me at all. same thing with the whole score.

ok... sir francis and the unicorn is pretty fantastic, I must admit.


Well to each their own. ;)

But for me, it's fast becoming one of my all-time favorite scores, on the same level as HP 1-3.

#13 Incanus

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:02 PM

I went with the Raiders March. It is more thoroughly developed I feel even though I like the Tintin theme very much.

Ars superior est vita hominum.

 

"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-

 

I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-


#14 ShowUStheHOOK

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:07 PM

Oh that one. That reminds of Jake Lloyd.

Indy still wins!


:lol2: :yes: :yes:

#15 Chaac

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:13 PM

I think Tintin's themes are fantastic but they're really not in the spotlight of this score like Indy's theme was in Raiders. I think in Tintin the main thing would be the Unicorn's theme.

(What I like about Tintin's theme in its most complete version is how it goes down and jumps, jumps again further, and then falls and manages to jump and finally "fly". In my humble opinion it's a quite expressive moment)

#16 Josh500

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:16 PM

I think Tintin's themes are fantastic but they're really not in the spotlight of this score like Indy's theme was in Raiders. I think in Tintin the main thing would be the Unicorn's theme.


Hmmm yes. But surely that's because Tintin's Heroic Theme (and his other 2 themes) aren't played over the end credits, and they didn't get a concert arrangement on the OS album.

And I am thinking that this might have been done by JW on purpose... because Tintin is not supposed to be the center of attention, like Indy. He is just a blank figure without much character who gets drawn into one adventure after another.

I think Tintin's theme gets used quite a LOT throughout the movie, though . . . whenever Tintin does even something slightly heroic, or just when he is the focus of attention.

#17 BloodBoal

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:18 PM

I think Tintin's themes are fantastic but they're really not in the spotlight of this score like Indy's theme was in Raiders. I think in Tintin the main thing would be the Unicorn's theme.


No, it's Snowy's theme, you idiot! Disappointing, Shaky Chaac, quite disappointing...

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#18 Josh500

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:20 PM

But anyway, I think we all agree, the themes in Tintin are quite solid.

Compare, for example, the themes in Tintin with the (new) themes from KotCS! Mutt's Theme, the Crystal theme, Irina's theme, hell even the theme of the Russians...

No comparison, if you ask me!

#19 Chaac

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:22 PM

Irina's theme and the theme for the Russians are fantastic in my opinion.

#20 BloodBoal

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:23 PM

And I prefer Mutt's theme to that travesty of a theme for Snowy.

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#21 Josh500

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:24 PM

Irina's theme and the theme for the Russians are fantastic in my opinion.


Well, they are not bad by any means, but I think any theme from Tintin is better (more memorable, effective, well-constructed) than these 2.

#22 Charlie Brigden

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:24 PM

The themes in KOTCS are wonderful, it's the underscore that's underwhelming.
Repeat the JWFan pledge after me: 'I hereby recognise John Towner Williams' place in the world as the great composer there has ever been, and I therefore renounce the works of Rozsa, Korngold, Herrmann, Horner, Kamen, Giacchino (unless the prophecy is fulfilled and he becomes the heir to JTW) and Goldsmith, especially Goldsmith. I understand that if I ever refer to Jurassic Park as anything less than "a masterpiece sixty-five million years in the making" I will be resigned to living out my days at the Zimmershrine.'

#23 Josh500

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:25 PM

The themes in KOTCS are wonderful,,,


As opposed to the themes in Tintin?

#24 Charlie Brigden

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:27 PM

Yes. I mean, the Tintin themes are good, but I don't think they're half as good as KOTCS. Then again, I know I'm in a minority with Call of the Crystal.
Repeat the JWFan pledge after me: 'I hereby recognise John Towner Williams' place in the world as the great composer there has ever been, and I therefore renounce the works of Rozsa, Korngold, Herrmann, Horner, Kamen, Giacchino (unless the prophecy is fulfilled and he becomes the heir to JTW) and Goldsmith, especially Goldsmith. I understand that if I ever refer to Jurassic Park as anything less than "a masterpiece sixty-five million years in the making" I will be resigned to living out my days at the Zimmershrine.'

#25 Josh500

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:30 PM

Yes. I mean, the Tintin themes are good, but I don't think they're half as good as KOTCS. Then again, I know I'm in a minority with Call of the Crystal.


:blink:

Well, if you really think so, I won't argue with you. To be honest, personally I still can't get into the Crystal theme...

But for me (and for most of us, I am sure) the score to Tintin is far superior to the score to KotCS... and I am not talking about just the main themes, of course.

#26 Chaac

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:32 PM

I like them all, except Mutt's music, which never clicked with me. The underscore of KOTCS is a bit boring at times with moments on coolnes here and there (mushroom cloud!!). Tintin is a score with a quite exciting and colourful underscore all throurough, which is I think thereason why some prefer it to KOTCS.

#27 Charlie Brigden

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:34 PM

Jeez, you sound like I've personally insulted you.

Is Tintin as a score better than KOTCS? As a whole it probably is. But theme by theme, I'd personally pick KOTCS any time. Both have the fact that I get bored listening to them relatively easily in common.

And WAR HORSE tramples over both with a big neigh.
Repeat the JWFan pledge after me: 'I hereby recognise John Towner Williams' place in the world as the great composer there has ever been, and I therefore renounce the works of Rozsa, Korngold, Herrmann, Horner, Kamen, Giacchino (unless the prophecy is fulfilled and he becomes the heir to JTW) and Goldsmith, especially Goldsmith. I understand that if I ever refer to Jurassic Park as anything less than "a masterpiece sixty-five million years in the making" I will be resigned to living out my days at the Zimmershrine.'

#28 Josh500

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:36 PM

I like them all, except Mutt's music, which never clicked with me. The underscore of KOTCS is a bit boring at times with moments on coolnes here and there (mushroom cloud!!). Tintin is a score with a quite exciting and colourful underscore all throurough, which is I think thereason why some prefer it to KOTCS.


Well, even if you put Tintin's theme aside for a moment, consider the Scroll theme, Sir Red Rackham's theme, Snowy's Theme, Haddock's theme, the villain's theme, the Unicorn theme...

Man! These are maybe some of the best (and most original) themes JW wrote, IMO!

Jeez, you sound like I've personally insulted you.


Why in the world would you get that impression? I was just a little surprised, that's all...

Is Tintin as a score better than KOTCS? As a whole it probably is. But theme by theme, I'd personally pick KOTCS any time. Both have the fact that I get bored listening to them relatively easily in common.


Like I said, I won't argue with you if you really think so. ;)

#29 BloodBoal

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:37 PM

Sir Red Redham's theme


ROTFLMAO

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#30 Josh500

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:38 PM


Sir Red Redham's theme


ROTFLMAO


Corrected!

#31 Charlie Brigden

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:39 PM

I prefer Sir Red Redham's theme to the Unicron theme.
Repeat the JWFan pledge after me: 'I hereby recognise John Towner Williams' place in the world as the great composer there has ever been, and I therefore renounce the works of Rozsa, Korngold, Herrmann, Horner, Kamen, Giacchino (unless the prophecy is fulfilled and he becomes the heir to JTW) and Goldsmith, especially Goldsmith. I understand that if I ever refer to Jurassic Park as anything less than "a masterpiece sixty-five million years in the making" I will be resigned to living out my days at the Zimmershrine.'

#32 Josh500

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:41 PM

I prefer Sir Red Redham's theme to the Unicron theme.


ROTFLMAO

Yeah, that's what I thought all along!

#33 indy4

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:53 PM

I think Tintin's themes are fantastic but they're really not in the spotlight of this score like Indy's theme was in Raiders. I think in Tintin the main thing would be the Unicorn's theme.

I dunno, pretty much every main theme from Tintin is based on Tintin's theme, so even if the theme itself doesn't get a lot of playing time in the film, its variations do.
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#34 Josh500

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:57 PM

I dunno, pretty much every main theme from Tintin is based on Tintin's theme,


Haddock's Theme, the Scroll Theme, the villain's theme, Sir Red Rackham's Theme, the Dueling Theme, Snowy's theme are based on Tintin's Theme?

so even if the theme itself doesn't get a lot of playing time in the film


But it does!

Any more, and people would be comparing it to Hedwig's theme in PS!

#35 Hlao-roo

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 06:57 PM

I went with the Raiders March. It is more thoroughly developed I feel even though I like the Tintin theme very much.


Development is overrated. When you strip both themes to their essence, it becomes clear that Tintin is the product of a subtler and more mature compositional voice.

#36 Stefancos

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:07 PM

Indeed, in comparison the Raiders March comes of as gaudy, obvious and unsophisticated. Of course JW can hardly be blamed for this, since this was much earlier in his career, when he had not yet established his true style. It wasn't until scores like Nixon, Rosewood and in particular Sleepers that the modern, immaculate style of John Williams would seen the light of day.

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#37 hornist

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:30 PM

Tintin

Wait until it will have many different takes in the fortcoming Tintin sequels, after
raising to it to the full glory via many modulation. JW at his best.

Now you are used to all JW's three Indy scores. You will wait and see.

#38 Stefancos

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:31 PM

Four.

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#39 hornist

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:32 PM

Three.

#40 Wojo

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:56 PM

I've never heard this Tintin music, so I voted Raiders.




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