74 replies to this topic

[Sandor]

In all fairness, Morley said the 'Use The Force, Luke' scene had her orchestration. She never said arrangement. So she didn't lie.

Reminds of an article I read this week where wrestler Hulk Hogan said he 'almost got to play bass in Metallica'. Funny how different Hogan's take on the story is when you compare it to Lars Ulrich's interpretation of events that took place in the early 80's. Hogan didn't lie perse, but implying he 'almost got to play for Metallica' is stretching things to the max in order to gain respect or attention, I don't know. I think - not saying this as a fanboy - that Morley somehow wanted people to believe that 'orchestration' equals 'arrangement'. It does not, at least not in the case of John Williams who's detailed score sketches are well known and documented.

[MrJosh]

I didn't mean that all of her statements I find incorrect. I believe her that she helped orchestrating Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, Superman and others. I find it suspect that she mentioned Miklos Rozsa, because he always claimed that he orchestrated the scores himself and I cannot find anything on the internet regarding the connection between Morley and Rozsa.

If there is a proof (I discover or someone else will discover) then I retract my statement and apologize for false information.

I would need proof as well before believing this involvement with Rozsa.


And wait a minute....Angela is a HE?

[chuckster312]

So now, nothing remains except Angela's Ashes.


Sorry, couldn't resist.

[MrJosh]

So now, nothing remains except Angela's Ashes.


Sorry, couldn't resist.

wow........lol

[Joe Brausam]

Ròzsa was as legitimate as they come, he did his time as a concert composer in Europe before moving into film work - a genre which he originally dismissed. As was mentioned, Zador was his compatriote at MGM because of contract obligations, which ended in the early 1960s. I've never heard of any connection between him and Morley aside from in that article.

[Dole]

I don't know why Morley would have lied about working with Rozsa. I'll take her word for it.

She was a wonderful arranger and orchestrator who was responsible for some of my favorite pieces on the Cinema Serenade albums.

On a related note, wasn't there an article/interview/book/etc. that put forward a rumor that Williams was under some sort of pressure or something while scoring Return of the Jedi and had to call in someone to help him write a couple of cues ("Superstructure Chase" maybe?)? I'm sure I didn't dream it up, but I can't remember where I read that and I have no clue as to the veracity of the assertion.

[Faleel]

Yes, apparently Fred steiner did Sailbarge Assault and perhaps Superstructure chase...

[chuckster312]

According to her website, Morley worked with Rozsa in his last film only, Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid. So that was after Rozsa left MGM. That was the only time Morley and Rozsa worked together in a film.

[ckappes]

On a related note, wasn't there an article/interview/book/etc. that put forward a rumor that Williams was under some sort of pressure or something while scoring Return of the Jedi and had to call in someone to help him write a couple of cues ("Superstructure Chase" maybe?)? I'm sure I didn't dream it up, but I can't remember where I read that and I have no clue as to the veracity of the assertion.

Yes, apparently Fred steiner did Sailbarge Assault and perhaps Superstructure chase...

That was a rumor and it is not correct. Ford Thaxton was in the archives and he said there are no documents where Fred Steiner was involved in Return of the Jedi. Also, Steiner himself (!) said he was not involved.

Just want to falsify the theory and kick this rumor out of this world!

P.S.: Morley was also not involved in orchestrating or writing Return of the Jedi.

According to her website, Morley worked with Rozsa in his last film only, Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid. So that was after Rozsa left MGM. That was the only time Morley and Rozsa worked together in a film.

Okay, I was researching this matter. I found hand-written orchestral score sheets. I retract my statement that Rozsa didn't have orchestrators after MGM in 1963, because I found also an orchestrator in Time after Time... BUT: Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid is not orchestrated by Morley. It is orchestrated by Christopher Palmer (as well as Time after Time).

Source: http://miklosrozsa.y...-score-research

This guy made a research for study purposes, so 100% trustworthy.

[Joe Brausam]

I know about Palmer, but I wouldn't doubt that he had quite a bit of help with duties on Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid - he had his first stroke around the time of that film, I forget if it was before or after he wrote the music though.

[Alexander]

Morley is an orchestrator, just like Conrad Pope, Eddie Karam, Herbert Spencer, John Neufeld, etc...

What's the big deal? We all know JW lets others orchestrate his scores. That doesn't mean that they change the music, they just convert JW's multi-stave sketches to a full orchestra. They don't say things like "yeah, the trombones will play this, the trumpets that" or whatever. John Williams writes the music.

[Hlao-roo]

A lot of this would be put to rest if Williams gave himself the "Orchestrations" credit on his albums. We can pretend that Williams declines out of respect for his not-orchestrators, but it's such a strained compromise, really, particularly in light of Goldsmith's magnanimity.

[Josh500]

Morley is an orchestrator,

No. Morley was more than an orchestrator, she was also a highly regarded composer.

She scored many episodes of "Dallas" and "Dynasty" for example.

[Prometheus]

Watership Down: Crossing the River (from 1:00 onwards)


Empire Strikes Back: Lando's Palace (first minute only)


They are not the same orchestration or melodies, but I hear Morley's fingerprints all over it! It's a stylistic thing more than a direct similarity.

The fingerprints your hearing on both are Sir Williams Walton's, who was a big influence on Williams's Star Wars sound. R8P3 Lando's Palace as proven the leaked sketches is of his hand, no one else's.

[king mark]

yes, ,now I see the light

Angela Morley is the sole responsible for the "Williams sound" . Thanks for this thread to clear that up

That means Williams detailed sketches meant nothing after all

we need to change this website name to AngelaMorley fan .com

[Quint]

Why?

[king mark]

I hop you can see I was being sarcastic

[Quint]

Yes you were, but only a little bit.

[king mark]

no, 100% sarcastic

[chuckster312]

^Sure, now I definitely see Morley's orchestrations on War Horse and The Adventures of Tintin. That's impressive.

[crocodile]

No, you're wrong, partially at least. She worked on Tintin 2009 sessions only. The Zimmerish track 7 on the album was composed by Williams and you can hear a sudden dip in quality right there. War Horse was almost entirely adapted from her unused sketches from Angela's Ashes and Far and Away (with the exception of action bit of No Man's Land, again inspired by RC aesthetics). And that's because she passed away in 2009. John is skillful enough arranger and orchestrator that he managed to create some kind of whole out of this mess, similarly to what Michael Kamen's collaborators did on Back to Gaya. But, as was the case with that score, there is apparent lack of thematic continuity in War Horse. That explains why, I guess.

Karol

[Incanus]

After all what would the world be like without Angela Morley?

[chuckster312]

I was on sarcasm mode there. But thank you for pointing that out. >.>

[crocodile]

Of course it is, silly.

Karol

[chuckster312]

After all what would the world be like without Angela Morley?

Unthinkable. It would be like imagining a world without Jerry Goldsmith.

[indy4]

This thread is offensive to William Ross. You are all discrediting all the hard work he put into his compositions.

[crocodile]

Angela Morley operated under a codename: Bill Ross

Karol

[pixie_twinkle]

The fingerprints your hearing on both are Sir Williams Walton's, who was a big influence on Williams's Star Wars sound. R8P3 Lando's Palace as proven the leaked sketches is of his hand, no one else's.

The Walton sound is certainly there in both. It's a very "English" sound. Morley's music is definitely a direct descendant of Walton. The reason the Lando theme makes me think of Morley is that I've never heard anything even remotely similar in style in any other pieces by Williams. It definitely stands out, not only in the Star Wars scores, but in all Williams scores.

Morley is an orchestrator, just like Conrad Pope, Eddie Karam, Herbert Spencer, John Neufeld, etc...

What's the big deal? We all know JW lets others orchestrate his scores... They don't say things like "yeah, the trombones will play this, the trumpets that" or whatever. John Williams writes the music.

Actually that's exactly what an orchestrator does. What you're describing is a copyist. If all the "orchestrator" had to do was copy notes from one piece of paper to another, why employ such established composers as Morley, Courage, Pope etc for the task? Why not just get a high school music student to do it?

As any serious composer knows, orchestration is a part of the process of composing. It is absolutely a creative act. It is not simply a question of copying notes, there is an artistic craft to it. A little more respect for the orchestrators, please!

[gkgyver]

Death to orchestrators!

[pixie_twinkle]

[Augie]

@Maurizio

( While your thought is certainly fascinating, I think it's stretching things a tad too far. Williams employed Morley (as well as Herb Spencer, Sandy Courage, Arthur Morton and Al Woodbury) simply because they were some of the best around and the one he trusted the most to get the work done in a brilliant and efficient way. Surely the original Star Wars score has a certain British-influenced sound, but it goes as far back as to Walton and Elgar, because that was part of the orchestral tapestry Williams and Lucas envisioned for the film.)

Maurizio, read this. Must read:

"The response of the audience that you ask about is something that I certainly can't explain. I wish I could explain that. But maybe the combination of the audio and the visual hitting people in the way that it does must speak to some collective memory—we talked about that before—that we don't quite understand. Some memory of Buck Rogers or King Arthur or something earlier in the cultural salts of our brains, memories of lives lived in the past, I don't know. But it has that kind of resonance—it resonates within us in some past hero's life that we've all lived.
Now we're into a kind of Hindu idea, but I think somehow that's what happens musically. That's what in performance one tries to get with orchestras, and we talk about that at orchestral rehearsals: that it isn't only the notes, it's this reaching back into the past. As creatures we don't know if we have a future, but we certainly share a great past. We remember it, in language and in pre-language, and that's where music lives—it's to this area in our souls that it can speak." JW

[Alexander]

Yes, apparently Fred steiner did Sailbarge Assault and perhaps Superstructure chase...

Orchestrated. Not composed.

The fingerprints your hearing on both are Sir Williams Walton's, who was a big influence on Williams's Star Wars sound. R8P3 Lando's Palace as proven the leaked sketches is of his hand, no one else's.

The Walton sound is certainly there in both. It's a very "English" sound. Morley's music is definitely a direct descendant of Walton. The reason the Lando theme makes me think of Morley is that I've never heard anything even remotely similar in style in any other pieces by Williams. It definitely stands out, not only in the Star Wars scores, but in all Williams scores.

Morley is an orchestrator, just like Conrad Pope, Eddie Karam, Herbert Spencer, John Neufeld, etc...

What's the big deal? We all know JW lets others orchestrate his scores... They don't say things like "yeah, the trombones will play this, the trumpets that" or whatever. John Williams writes the music.

Actually that's exactly what an orchestrator does. What you're describing is a copyist. If all the "orchestrator" had to do was copy notes from one piece of paper to another, why employ such established composers as Morley, Courage, Pope etc for the task? Why not just get a high school music student to do it?

As any serious composer knows, orchestration is a part of the process of composing. It is absolutely a creative act. It is not simply a question of copying notes, there is an artistic craft to it. A little more respect for the orchestrators, please!

Do you want me to post examples??

Ok, here is one page from a sketch from Tintin:



You can clearly see that he writes down himself that the horns play whatever in bar whatever.

By the way, posting a page from a sketch has been done before in the mockups thread.

[pixie_twinkle]

That's fantastic, where did you get that? Are these sketches widely available?

[Alexander]

There's a site which has a lot of users that own that kind of thing.

But i don't think that i'm allowed to say where to get things in an illegal way.

[pixie_twinkle]

I'll go a-hunting.