71 replies to this topic

[Augie]

In my opinion, Seven Years in Tibet is one of John Williams' true classics of the
1990s. Passionate, unique, and very well performed. One of his best.



Looking back, it sounds slightly like the SW prequels, even. I remember when it
came out, I didn't even know about the assignment. I was completely taken by
surprise! I read somewhere that the score was a replacement score - somebody
else's score was rejected, but I can't find any information about it. I think Williams
replaced John Barry. Does anybody know more about it?

On the cd, there is more music than they used in the film. Some people noted that
at least two major cues are missing, though. This score is majestic.
So, why the letdown?

[Incanus]

This is one of my dearest of Williams' drama scores in the 1990's. So full of lyricism, drama and beautiful melodic invention, the Maestro trying his hand at ethnic writing for Far East and succeeding in incorporating allusions of those sounds with the sound of the symphony orchestra. Yo-Yo Ma's talent in the score is immeasurable, his cello voice instantly affecting and involving. I remember being swept away by the main theme when I first heard it but it took a while for me to learn to appreciate the whole score and finding all the little nuances both thematically and instrumentally. As I said now it is one of my favourites which I listen to regularly.

I think this score has not been labeled a let-down so much as it is just not discussed much by JW fans here or anywhere. Perhaps the middle portion of the soundtrack which shifts from highly energetic and melodramatic to quiet, introspective and ethnic style is not to everybody's liking combined with the near monothematic approach (there are actually 3 quite distinctive thematic ideas in the score). The general tone of the music is also rather melancholy which might turn away the fans of more optimistic and heroic music of which JW is famous for.

[Augie]

I can only subscribe to this.
I think the real reason why the score goes so often unmentioned, is that the movie was
such a standard 90s affair. I mean, it is virtually forgotten and not very engaging. And
so nobody can connect the music to something larger. Which is paradoxical, because,
as a listening experience on its own, it puts images of a journey into your head that's
so much more compelling and seminal than the movie itself turned out.
What really fascinates me is how effortlessly Williams seemed to come up with some-
thing majestic like that, although it was a replacement job, and therefore he probably
didn't have the usual amount of weeks to do it. I sometimes wonder if the best (and,
naturally, the worst stuff) is done in a rush. If you look at "The Patriot", the composer
had 3 full months to do it, and it never seemed to be a score that was as integral or
as accomplished as "Seven Years in Tibet".
"Tibet" is not like the other quick replacement jobs John Willliams had to do during the
1990s - like "Sleepers" or "Stepmom", which offered some short, but well realized music,
but as a whole lacked the feel of something with real complexity - it's a standout score.
For everyone. It has huge appeal for the fans of "Superman" and "Star Wars".
What's also mysterious to me is that Williams NEVER performs it live.

[Josh500]

"Tibet" is not like the other quick replacement jobs John Willliams had to do during the
1990s - like "Sleepers" or "Stepmom", which offered some short, but well realized music,
but as a whole lacked the feel of something with real complexity - it's a standout score

What makes you think that Sleepers and Stepmom were quick replacement jobs?

I sometimes wonder if the best (and, naturally, the worst stuff) is done in a rush.

Do you really think you can generalize like this? Sometimes sure. But sometimes no.

If you look at "The Patriot", the composer had 3 full months to do it, and it never seemed to be a score that was as integral or as accomplished as "Seven Years in Tibet".

That's your opinion. The Patriot is actually a great score. The movie is . . . well, it's a Roland Emmerich movie, so it's not great.

Still, I am with you, I like the score to Seven Years in Tibet better. I especially like the harsh mountain conditions that JW so seemingly effortlessly evokes...

And of course "Regaining A Son" is a classic!

[Incanus]

"Tibet" is not like the other quick replacement jobs John Willliams had to do during the
1990s - like "Sleepers" or "Stepmom", which offered some short, but well realized music,
but as a whole lacked the feel of something with real complexity - it's a standout score

What makes you think that Sleepers and Stepmom were quick replacement jobs?

Because they were replacement jobs but I do not know if Williams came to these projects early or late though. Williams replaced Doyle on Stepmom but I did not know that Sleepers was a replacement. And I disagree that these scores lack complexity or substance. Sleepers especially is musically complex and psychologically compelling work.
And of course Rosewood was another replacement when John Singleton threw out Wynton Marsalis' score after he heard Williams might be willing to score the film.

[Josh500]

"Tibet" is not like the other quick replacement jobs John Willliams had to do during the
1990s - like "Sleepers" or "Stepmom", which offered some short, but well realized music,
but as a whole lacked the feel of something with real complexity - it's a standout score

What makes you think that Sleepers and Stepmom were quick replacement jobs?

Because they were replacement jobs. I do not know if Williams came to these projects early or late though. Williams replaced Doyle on Stepmom but did not know that Sleepers was a replacement. And I disagree that these scores lack complexity or substance. Sleepers especially is complex and psychologically compelling work.
And of course Rosewood was another replacement when John Singleton threw out Wynton Marsalis' score after he heard Williams might be willing to score the film.

Yes, JW replaced Doyle on Stepmom, I know. But nowhere I have I ever heard or read that it was a quick replacement job. So, to my knowledge, JW had his usual 2-3 months (or maybe considerably less, because this is not exactly Star Wars) to write the score.

And Sleepers... where is the source that states that it was a quick replacement job?

[Augie]

Because if a producer decides to throw out a full score, or half of a recorded score,
or no score but only the concept of a score, the time frames for the composer who
replaces the rejected one gets much more limited, as the release date is looming,
which of course rushes the composer and his team who have less time to prepare.
Look at James Newton Howard's "King Kong", Jerry Goldsmiths "The River Wild" or
whatever. I also remember that "Stepmom" and "Sleepers" - just like "Tibet" - were
coming out with no warning, so to speak. Even if you were pretty well informed about
the next Williams projects, they came right out of the blue. And, as much as I like
them, you can always sense the rush that got them produced in the first place.
Which doesn't mean that movies with longer production periods and no replacement
of the composers involved are easier to do. "Hook" or "Munich" were big Spielberg
pictures, but everyone on set and in the post was working against the clock, editors
and composer (check out a recent interview with Michael Kahn), to meet the dead-
line. Spielberg is pretty infamous for such production schedules, and - at least in
the last 12 years - it shows.
It's simply a matter of time, also for John Williams.

[Josh500]

Because if a producer decides to throw out a full score, or half of a recorded score,
or no score but only the concept of a score, the time frames for the composer who
replaces the rejected one gets much more limited, as the release date is looming,
which of course rushes the composer and his team who have less time to prepare.
Look at James Newton Howard's "King Kong", Jerry Goldsmiths "The River Wild" or
whatever. I also remember that "Stepmom" and "Sleepers" - just like "Tibet" - were
coming out with no warning, so to speak. Even if you were pretty well informed about
the next Williams projects, they came right out of the blue. And, as much as I like
them, you can always sense the rush that got them produced in the first place.
Which doesn't mean that movies with longer production periods and no replacement
of the composers involved are easier to do. "Hook" or "Munich" were big Spielberg
pictures, but everyone on set and in the post was working against the clock, editors
and composer (check out a recent interview with Michael Kahn), to meet the dead-
line. Spielberg is pretty infamous for such production schedules, and - at least in
the last 12 years - it shows.
It's simply a matter of time, also for John Williams.

What are you saying is generally true, for any movie. Any director, and any composer, has a deadline at some point.

Because if a producer decides to throw out a full score, or half of a recorded score,
or no score but only the concept of a score, the time frames for the composer who
replaces the rejected one gets much more limited

Where does it say, however, that on these projects JW had a very limited time? If there is no source, you are just assuming things. Remember, JW needs 2-3 months to write a score for Star Wars. For Stepmom and Sleepers, which both contain much less music, JW probably only needs a month, more or less.

I also remember that "Stepmom" and "Sleepers" - just like "Tibet" - were
coming out with no warning, so to speak. Even if you were pretty well informed about
the next Williams projects, they came right out of the blue. And, as much as I like
them, you can always sense the rush that got them produced in the first place.

Maybe you do (or imagine you do), but I don't, at all. For me these 2 scores feel in no way rushed, and they fit their respective movies very well.

[Augie]

Sure I also love Sleepers, but if you want to condense the score to its essence, it's not
going to be longer than 19 minutes. For the rest, there is a lot of uninspired synth going
on and musical material that doesn't amount to much. Standout tracks: Revenge, Learning
the hard way, Last night at Wilkinson, Saying the rosary, Hell's Kitchen.

But I think it is quite naive to think that a composer gets his usual 3 months for a
replacement job, as a score gets thrown out in the very last minute.

[Josh500]

Sure I also love Sleepers, but if you want to condense the score to its essence, it's not
going to be longer than 19 minutes. For the rest, there is a lot of uninspired synth going
on and musical material that doesn't amount to much. Standout tracks: Revenge, Learning
the hard way, Last night at Wilkinson, Saying the rosary, Hell's Kitchen.

Ahh now I get it!

You don't like some tracks, so that's why you assume JW had less time...

I wouldn't jump to conclusions, if I were you! It's a difficult listen sometimes, sure, but that's it.

But I think it is quite naive to think that a composer gets his usual 3 months for a
replacement job, as a score gets thrown out in the very last minute.

Another assumption, as regards Sleepers and Stepmom?

Where is the source on Sleepers, by the way? Who was the original composer?

[Augie]

Always compared to a more accomplished score like "Tibet" or "Schindler's List",
were we have a heightened unity of the music (and a bigger corpus of material)
that cannot be seperated. Schindler or Tibet are more than the sum of its parts.

[Josh500]

Always compared to a more accomplished score like "Tibet" or "Schindler's List",
were we have a heightened unity of the music (and a bigger corpus of material)
that cannot be seperated. Schindler or Tibet are more than the sum of its parts.

Again, where is the source??

You like some scores, some others you like a little less (or even dislike)--that's true of anybody, me included. We all have different tastes. But you're not just making assumptions based on your personal likes and dislikes, are you?

[Augie]

Sometimes the smaller scores are also not very well presented on album. Which
makes it hard to evaluate, for example, "Sabrina". What's on the disc is beautiful,
but it's hardly a balanced and well-rounded score for me, in this truncated form.
In this special case, very misleading.

[Josh500]

Sometimes the smaller scores are also not very well presented on album. Which
makes it hard to evaluate, for example, "Sabrina". What's on the disc is beautiful,
but it's hardly a balanced and well-rounded score for me, in this truncated form.
In this special case, very misleading.

Yes, for you, maybe.

Sabrina is a solid 4,5 score for me (Sleepers and Stepmom would get 4 stars each). "The Theme from Sabrina" and "In the Moonlight" (Orchestral) are gorgeous and some of the best romantic music JW has written! And I have no complaints as regards the album representations here, either.

[Augie]

Sorry, Josh 500, it's not just a matter of taste. It's just about knowing how this
business works from the inside. The timetables for anybody are so tight that
most people involved have to perform on a 100% level in ever decreasing
periods of time. Sometimes, your art suffers. Because there are aspects of
being creative which can't be sped up by computers, and if you look closely
at rushed actors, rushed directing, rush editing and composing, it becomes
apparent.

You don't need proof that John Williams didn't have months of spare time
when there's a composer going to the hospital diagnosed with leukemia and
the movie is already a troubled production. Speaking of "Sleepers", I happen
to know how quickly Barry Levinson shot the movie - from being a longtime
Levinson fan, reading most of the interviews (not anymore).

But you're twisting my words! What I originally wanted to say was: "Seven
Years in Tibet" is a John Williams masterpiece, ALTHOUGH it was a replace-
ment job.

For the record: I love every Williams score. And some more than others.

"Theme from Sabrina" can not be beaten. Finally, we agree!

[Josh500]

It's just about knowing how this business works from the inside. The timetables for anybody are so tight that
most people involved have to perform on a 100% level in ever decreasing
periods of time. Sometimes, your art suffers. Because there are aspects of
being creative which can't be sped up by computers, and if you look closely
at rushed actors, rushed directing, rush editing and composing, it becomes
apparent.

No argument there (and I happen to know the business from the inside too).

You don't need proof that John Williams didn't have months of spare time
when there's a composer going to the hospital diagnosed with leukemia and
the movie is already a troubled production. Speaking of "Sleepers", I happen
to know how quickly Barry Levinson shot the movie - from being a longtime
Levinson fan, reading most of the interviews (not anymore).

JW replaced Doyle on Stepmom, yes I know. Many people consider Stepmom to be one of JW's lesser efforts, I know that too. However, taking these two things and assuming that JW did a rush job (kinda like what Horner did on Aliens), is a stretch. Sorry, it's your assumption, nothing more (unless you have a verifiable source, of course).

And again, what's the deal with Sleepers? Who was the original composer? Because I don't know anything about that!

What I originally wanted to say was: "Seven
Years in Tibet" is a John Williams masterpiece,

I agree. However, like I said often here, you don't need to put down other JW scores in order to praise another!

Don't make assumptions about Sleepers and Stepmom, just because you don't like them as much as some other JW scores.

For the record: I love every Williams score. And some more than others.

[Incanus]

Do you know who was originally slated to score The Sleepers Augie?

[Josh500]

"Seven Years in Tibet" is a John Williams masterpiece, ALTHOUGH it was a replace-
ment job.

Yes, and who was the original composer of Seven Years In Tibet?

"Theme from Sabrina" can not be beaten. Finally, we agree!

[Augie]

With "Tibet", it was John Barry. And I have no idea, folks, if the man with the Midas touch just wrote
demos for the film, or recorded the whole music. A big mystery for me (and I'm also a Barry fan - just
not as much as I'm a Williams fan). But Barry fell out with the director, Jean-Jacques Annaud.

On "Sleepers", as much as I can remember, they weren't happy with the usual Levinson soundtrack
collage of period songs, and somebody wrote a little score that was thrown out also. I can only assume
it was either Randy Newman or Robbie Robertson. It was neither Morricone nor Zimmer.

Anyway, I hope you have a great weekend!

[Incanus]

Interesting info Augie. I did not know of these replacements before. And yeah all scores mentioned here are quite excellent all in their own way.

[Augie]

Classics. Just classics in their own right!

Incanus, the album, "Tibet", I just listened to it again, yesterday, and I think the sound is a bit muffled.
Do you agree?

Maybe it's my ears...

[Incanus]

Yes I agree, especially the subtleties are a bit subdued. I would love to hear some of those cello solos in better clarity e.g. in Memoirs of a Geisha. Also some things like tubular bells in Harrer's Rescue are mixed oddly, leaving only the sound of hammer hitting the bell instead of the pealing sound, that kind of things.

[Miguel Andrade]

Augie, could you please present actual evidence regarding the original composers on "Sleepers" and "Seven Years in Tibet"? Not saying it didn't happen, but this totally new information for me, and I like to have full confirmation on this matters.
And thanks for posting your thoughts on this marvelous, if somewhat underrated score. I've always felt that the opening track, that works just like an overture to a symphonic poem that is the actual score, as this grand sweeping feel to it à lá "Lawrence of Arabia"... just not in the desert, but rather in the mountains.

[Incanus]

Augie, could you please present actual evidence regarding the original composers on "Sleepers" and "Seven Years in Tibet"? Not saying it didn't happen, but this totally new information for me, and I like to have full confirmation on this matters.
And thanks for posting your thoughts on this marvelous, if somewhat underrated score. I've always felt that the opening track, that works just like an overture to a symphonic poem that is the actual score, as this grand sweeping feel to it à lá "Lawrence of Arabia"... just not in the desert, but rather in the mountains.

Well put. I think the reprises of the suite which sandwich the score work here very well.

[Augie]

Exactly! When it came out, I played this cd to death, and the first track seemed to be outstanding
in sound quality, really clear, and matching the cello virtuoso performance in quality.

Today, I find the mix a bit odd, especially during the more silent parts of Heinrich's Odyssey. But
perhaps it was made for bigger speakers, at the time. What we have today is very different
equipment, compared to what we had then.

[Incanus]

Exactly! When it came out, I played this cd to death, and the first track seemed to be outstanding
in sound quality, really clear, and matching the cello virtuoso performance in quality.

Today, I find the mix a bit odd, especially during the more silent parts of Heinrich's Odyssey. But
perhaps it was made for bigger speakers, at the time. What we have today is very different
equipment, compared to what we had then.

I find these quiet moments (There is an outstanding track on the CD with the same name btw) perhaps the most satisfying, Williams infusing the subtle renditions of the themes with so much emotion and lyrical beauty.

[Romão]

Sleepers and Tibet are my favorite 90's JW scores

[Augie]

Miguel, absolutely! You love it too.

The case with John Barry is described in one of the Barry biographies, but not in detail.
Just mentioned, because he was rejected so often during the 80s and 90s it's hard to
keep track of what was going on. Sleepers was documented somewhere in Premiere
magazine. Unfortunately, I sold these issues years ago.

Question to you, Tibet lovers: What's the difference between the first suite and the last
suite on the album? I always wondered, are they identical or not?

[Incanus]

I think the reprise is identical with the opening track but for some odd reason the track times are different, a mistake I suspect. Also this is a very common Williams practice, to open and close an album with the concert arrangement although sometimes he might actually record a different version of the theme for the closing.

[Romão]

At least in the movie, the suite is sped up in the end credits. I kinda like the difference

[Augie]

And, yes, "Quiet moments" is probably the highlight of the score. One of Williams' most astonishing pieces -
I call them "introspective pieces". It's similar to the climax of A.I. and the "Remembering Childhood" cue from
"Hook". When Williams goes back to basics - and to his own roots as a pianist - writing for simple piano.

[Romão]

Or when the cello joins the theme on solo Piano in Reaching the Summit....

[Incanus]

Could be also an alternate faster take.

The album features a lot of music I can't remember from the film and the film has some cues not on the CD, great cues.

Or when the cello joins the theme on solo Piano in Reaching the Summit....

Indeed. Very bare but also extremely emotional.

[Augie]

Right!

[Maurizio]

From what I know, neither Sleepers nor Seven Years in TIbet were written to replace a rejected score. Better to check your own sources, Augie.

I agree Seven Years in TIbet is a great score and it's especially a great album. A lot of the score within the movie is dialed out, edited down or replaced with silence and source pieces. Williams also wrote a few pieces especially for the album.

[Incanus]

Indeed it is one of those albums that you are completely happy with even though you know there might be something missing from the actual film score.

[Augie]

@Maurizio

Why not check the John Barry Filmnotgraphy for some basic information.

http://www.johnbarry...lmnotgraphy.php

@Incanus

It's a shame that scores like "Tibet" are almost forgotten after this whole
prequel & Potter craze.

[Miguel Andrade]

Miguel, absolutely! You love it too.

The case with John Barry is described in one of the Barry biographies, but not in detail.
Just mentioned, because he was rejected so often during the 80s and 90s it's hard to
keep track of what was going on. Sleepers was documented somewhere in Premiere
magazine. Unfortunately, I sold these issues years ago.

Question to you, Tibet lovers: What's the difference between the first suite and the last
suite on the album? I always wondered, are they identical or not?

Thanks for the clarification Augie.
I wonder if in this cases an actual score was in fact written and recorded, or rather there was a composer connected to the score but later replaced for other reasons than creative differences with the director/producer...

EDIT: Upon checking the link you just posted, found this in there:

1998
Seven Years in Tibet
had conversations with director but never signed
John Williams

[Incanus]

@Incanus

It's a shame that scores like "Tibet" are almost forgotten after this whole
prequel & Potter craze.

Well you could say that many of the drama scores of the 90's from Sabrina to Angela's Ashes are quite forgotten by the larger fandom.

[Miguel Andrade]

@Incanus

It's a shame that scores like "Tibet" are almost forgotten after this whole
prequel & Potter craze.

Couldn't agree more. While I have the deepest of respect for "Seven Years in Tibet" or "Sleepers", my 90's favorite, and one all around for that matter, is "Angela's Ashes" that seems to have little love around this place.