There are many here whose love for Jerry Goldsmith surpasse even their love for John Williams. I am not one of them but I do respect Jerry's work tremendously.
John never lost to Jerry when they went head to head, but there were years they did not directly compete and sadly Jerry only got to hold the gold one time.
Patton is one of those scores that screams Oscar winner but wasn't.
So which is the better score and to go a step further which is the better film.
Patton or Saving Private Ryan...the poll.
Started by Joey, Apr 30 2012 06:44 PM
59 replies to this topic
#1
Joey
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:44 PM
OH God, Joe is posting again, someone hand me my pills!
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
#2
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:58 PM
I've still yet to see Patton, for some strange reason. It's been on my list for ages.
#3
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:02 PM
It's a great film, and IMHO possibly the best WWII film.
OH God, Joe is posting again, someone hand me my pills!
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
#4
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:10 PM
I haven't seen either of them.
Izena duen guztia omen da.
#5
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:13 PM
both are must see filmsI haven't seen either of them.
OH God, Joe is posting again, someone hand me my pills!
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
#6
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:53 PM
SAVING PRIVATE RYAN on both. However, I haven't seen PATTON, so the film vote is really moot.
I've had the RSNO rerecording for ages, and while I can appreciate it's structure and complexity, I suspect it's better served by the film than as a stand-alone listen. I'll find out once I get to see the movie.
I've had the RSNO rerecording for ages, and while I can appreciate it's structure and complexity, I suspect it's better served by the film than as a stand-alone listen. I'll find out once I get to see the movie.
#7
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:57 PM
you're not qualified to vote then.
OH God, Joe is posting again, someone hand me my pills!
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
#8
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:36 PM
both are must see films
I haven't seen either of them.
They're both on my Big List but I go in phases with genres. Now it's not the time
Izena duen guztia omen da.
#9
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:53 PM
Patton's on my must see list as well.
@Wojo: stop being facetious.
#10
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:00 PM
you're not qualified to vote then.
On the films, no. On the music, yes.
#11
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:00 PM
I think I saw Patton in middle school. Don't remember much aside from George C. Scott's incredible performance. Goldsmith's score is fantastic, but Spielberg and Williams get my votes. It sits comfortably in my #2 spot for Best Spielberg Film/Best Williams Score.
In 50 years Herrmann will be forgotten.
#12
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:05 PM
After Munich, right?
-Jay
#13
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:09 PM
Correct.
In 50 years Herrmann will be forgotten.
#14
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:27 PM
You must be kidding. Patton wins in both categories. It's a masterpiece of film music.
Karol
Karol
From a storytelling point of view, from a directing point of view, there is one thing I associate with what he does, which is calm. There is such an inherent calm and inherent trust of the one powerful image, that he makes me embarrassed with my own work, in terms of how many different shots, how many different sound effects, how many different things we’ll throw at an audience to make an impression. But with Kubrick, there is such a great trust of the one correct image to calmly explain something to audience. There can be some slowness to the editing. There’s nothing frenetic about it. It’s very simple. There’s a trust in simple storytelling and simple image making that actually takes massive confidence to try and emulate.
- Christopher Nolan
#15
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:37 PM
You must be kidding. Saving wins in both categories.
#16
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:39 PM
No, I mean seriously. Patton has one of the greatest themes ever written. SPR is nice, but C'mon!
Karol
Karol
From a storytelling point of view, from a directing point of view, there is one thing I associate with what he does, which is calm. There is such an inherent calm and inherent trust of the one powerful image, that he makes me embarrassed with my own work, in terms of how many different shots, how many different sound effects, how many different things we’ll throw at an audience to make an impression. But with Kubrick, there is such a great trust of the one correct image to calmly explain something to audience. There can be some slowness to the editing. There’s nothing frenetic about it. It’s very simple. There’s a trust in simple storytelling and simple image making that actually takes massive confidence to try and emulate.
- Christopher Nolan
#17
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:50 PM
agreed, nothing in the SPR score comes close to Jerry's main theme.No, I mean seriously. Patton has one of the greatest themes ever written. SPR is nice, but C'mon!
Karol
OH God, Joe is posting again, someone hand me my pills!
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
#18
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:54 PM
I always hated the wailing women toward the end of Hymn to the Fallen, but I found the Kunzel recording (in which he eradicated them) and everything became great about that beautiful piece of music. It stirs me up just as patriotic rememberence music ought to. The melody itself is to die for.
#19
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:05 PM
I always hated the wailing women toward the end of Hymn to the Fallen, but I found the Kunzel recording (in which he eradicated them) and everything became great about that beautiful piece of music. It stirs me up just as patriotic rememberence music ought to. The melody itself is to die for.
Wailing women? I can't hear any. There's some choral bits, but that's about it.
#20
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:08 PM
How about shrieking women, does that help? It sounds like they've got a couple of fucking banshees in there.
One always ruined Jill's America, too.
One always ruined Jill's America, too.
#21
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:18 PM
Ever since high school Patton has been one of my hands down, all time favorite films. One of the greatest biopics and war films ever made. The score is also one of my favorite Goldsmiths. Easy winner on both questions.
The First Question. The Oldest Question in the Universe, hidden in plain sight...
#22
Koray Savas
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:19 PM
One always ruined Jill's America, too.
Hey... shut up.
In 50 years Herrmann will be forgotten.
#23
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:26 PM
with your vast library of blu I figured you'd have the best picture from 1970.I think I saw Patton in middle school. Don't remember much aside from George C. Scott's incredible performance. Goldsmith's score is fantastic, but Spielberg and Williams get my votes. It sits comfortably in my #2 spot for Best Spielberg Film/Best Williams Score.
the battle sequences are simply amazing and not an ounce of cgi. this isn't a criticism of SPR because I don't remember any CGI in it.
Everything you see on screen in Patton was filmmed on screen. It's an amazing work. The performance in general are all top drawer.
OH God, Joe is posting again, someone hand me my pills!
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
#24
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:50 PM
with your vast library of blu I figured you'd have the best picture from 1970.
I think I saw Patton in middle school. Don't remember much aside from George C. Scott's incredible performance. Goldsmith's score is fantastic, but Spielberg and Williams get my votes. It sits comfortably in my #2 spot for Best Spielberg Film/Best Williams Score.
It's on a long wish list.
In 50 years Herrmann will be forgotten.
#25
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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:04 PM
Patton's main theme is legendary! As nice as Saving Private Ryan is, it doesn't match Goldsmith's theme for Patton. Patton isn't always to my liking though (like the dense parts) although its incredibly effective in film. Both scores have their merits and their faults, but I think in the end I think Patton is the winner for score.
As for films, both films are fantastic. I love Patton, but SPR is what I deem the better movie.
As for films, both films are fantastic. I love Patton, but SPR is what I deem the better movie.
Music Muse Reviews: "Escape From Tomorrow by Abel Korzeniowski
#26
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Posted 01 May 2012 - 12:48 AM
As much as I love Williams' score, I don't think many people will remember the music in 20 years. I think the haunting echoplex trumpets from Patton will still be remembered in 20 years...maybe.
#27
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Posted 01 May 2012 - 12:52 AM
I found the trumpets annoying and repetitive while watching the film....
Among all the things I have done in my short and pitiful life, becoming an inside joke on JWFAN is the one I'm the least proud of.
#28
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Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:01 AM
They get grating on album, that's for sure.
In 50 years Herrmann will be forgotten.
#29
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Posted 01 May 2012 - 05:17 AM
I'm tempted to vote for SPR as movie...although it's a highly problematic film, it seems more gut-wrenching and meaningful than the proper and lean biopic PATTON.
As for score, there's nothing interesting in the boring one-dimensional solemnity of SPR, it's one of Williams' most meagre scores. Goldsmith crushes it in nano seconds.
As for score, there's nothing interesting in the boring one-dimensional solemnity of SPR, it's one of Williams' most meagre scores. Goldsmith crushes it in nano seconds.
You wouldn't see a subtle plan if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord, singing "Subtle Plans Are Here Again."
#30
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Posted 01 May 2012 - 05:20 AM
Neither score does much for me beyond their fabulous main themes.
#31
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Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:36 AM
This is great poll. It defines my love and hate for film music perfectly.
This great compilation is totally ruined by The River Kwai ,Patton and Rocky
This great compilation is totally ruined by The River Kwai ,Patton and Rocky
#32
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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:09 AM
This is great poll. It defines my love and hate for film music perfectly.
This great compilation is totally ruined by The River Kwai ,Patton and Rocky
Don't blame the film scores, blame the arranger!
If you put John Williams in a dryer, you get Jerry Goldsmith! You get the downside version!
#33
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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:12 AM
The arranger is an asshole!
#34
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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:17 AM
Wasn't it Williams who arranged that medley?
Ars superior est vita hominum.
"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-
I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-
#35
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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:23 AM
yes it was, or Angela Morley.
#36
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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:26 AM
Yeah Morley is more likely. She has after all arranged everything by everyone everywhere always. The first caveman drumming on a log has her to thank for the amazing arragements.yes it was, or Angela Morley.
Ars superior est vita hominum.
"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-
I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-
#37
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Posted 01 May 2012 - 10:16 AM
According to the alwayrs reliable wiki, Conrad Pope is the arranger of this medley; he was asked by Good O'l JW.
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Conrad_Pope
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Conrad_Pope
For the 74th Academy Awards tribute to film music, John Williams asked Pope to reconstruct film scores to 20 classic films: Exodus, Casablanca, and Cinema Paradiso, to name a few. Mr. Williams has gone on to include this tribute to Hollywood's golden era as a staple of his concerts from Boston's Symphony Hall, to Avery Fisher Hall with the New York Philharmonic, and to the Hollywood Bowl,
If you put John Williams in a dryer, you get Jerry Goldsmith! You get the downside version!
#38
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Posted 01 May 2012 - 10:54 AM
Both films and scores are so very different from each other that the whole thing is almost ppointless. You might as well compare "1941" with "Rudy". That being said, both scores underline their respective films perfectly. "SPR" is interesting in that there is no music in any battle sequence, which there is in "Patton".
JG's threefold ideas (the march, the trumpet motif, and the chorale) work very well to create a music-picture of a man that loved the idea of doing battle. If "SPR" is ultimately an anti-war film, then it could be argued that "Patton" is a pro-war film. Let's not forget that "Patton" is not a war film in the strictest sense, rather, it is a film about a man who happened to like to wage war. "SPR" contains no such characters; they just do what they do because they are told to do it.
"HTTF" is one of the very best pieces that JW hes ever composed, but the score lacks a cohesieve whole, which makes it a bit piecemeal. "Patton" has no such problem building to form a jigsaw puzzle of a score about a remarkable (if infiuriating) man.
My vote? Patton both times.
JG's threefold ideas (the march, the trumpet motif, and the chorale) work very well to create a music-picture of a man that loved the idea of doing battle. If "SPR" is ultimately an anti-war film, then it could be argued that "Patton" is a pro-war film. Let's not forget that "Patton" is not a war film in the strictest sense, rather, it is a film about a man who happened to like to wage war. "SPR" contains no such characters; they just do what they do because they are told to do it.
"HTTF" is one of the very best pieces that JW hes ever composed, but the score lacks a cohesieve whole, which makes it a bit piecemeal. "Patton" has no such problem building to form a jigsaw puzzle of a score about a remarkable (if infiuriating) man.
My vote? Patton both times.
#39
Joey
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Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:25 PM
Both films and scores are so very different from each other that the whole thing is almost pointless.My vote? Patton both times.
Hardly as they are considered by many to be the two best films taking place during WWII in the European Theatre.
Patton was one of my first ventures into a musical score outside of John Williams. I wore that album out. I was awed to finally see the Texas A&M Aggies marching band perform the theme with their intricate marching style.
OH God, Joe is posting again, someone hand me my pills!
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
#40
crocodile
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Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:33 PM
Now, battle between Patton and Tora! Tora! Tora! would be interesting. Same year, same composer, same genre, two terrific scores in two sparsely spotted movies.
Karol
Karol
From a storytelling point of view, from a directing point of view, there is one thing I associate with what he does, which is calm. There is such an inherent calm and inherent trust of the one powerful image, that he makes me embarrassed with my own work, in terms of how many different shots, how many different sound effects, how many different things we’ll throw at an audience to make an impression. But with Kubrick, there is such a great trust of the one correct image to calmly explain something to audience. There can be some slowness to the editing. There’s nothing frenetic about it. It’s very simple. There’s a trust in simple storytelling and simple image making that actually takes massive confidence to try and emulate.
- Christopher Nolan
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