You can do it Stefan! You can do it!Strong men also cry.
Strong men...also cry!
And I am worried when a film nor its story does not get me emotionally engaged on any significant level.
What movies make you emotional or cry by their craftmanship?
Started by filmmusic, May 30 2012 03:10 PM
209 replies to this topic
#81
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 06:04 AM
And I am worried when a film nor its story does not get me emotionally engaged on any significant level.
Ars superior est vita hominum.
"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-
I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-
#82
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 06:28 AM
And I am worried when a film nor its story does not get me emotionally engaged on any significant level.
So i guess you're worried a lot.
Long-running arcs of tv series are more bound to get me engaged these days. I found some of the later episodes of the british SKINS series curiously affecting for its young actors were really good. As for the cited COLOR PURPLE, it's one of Spielberg's films where he directed perfect scenes without realizing it and when he tried hard on others it just became incredibly mushy.
You wouldn't see a subtle plan if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord, singing "Subtle Plans Are Here Again."
#83
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 06:29 AM
Indeed I am. And it is true I am gravitating towards TV-series with their longer story arcs as well.
And I am worried when a film nor its story does not get me emotionally engaged on any significant level.
So i guess you're worried a lot.
Ars superior est vita hominum.
"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-
I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-
#84
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 06:54 AM
yes you crave emotional fulfilment!
#85
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 07:05 AM
Who doesn't? I remember watching TINKER TAILOR SOLDIER SPY, thinking how they botched the whole denoument because the score was so subdued. The scene when Colin Firth and Mark Strong look at each other the last time cry out for some musical magic to sell us the broken love between them but the score hushed along in the background with no discernible change in tone or pace to the two hours preceding it.
You wouldn't see a subtle plan if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord, singing "Subtle Plans Are Here Again."
#86
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 07:12 AM
Undeniably I crave for emotional fulfilment of some kind, which can also be very ambiguous and leave you raw inside, but also intellectual stimulus. Not all films have to have an ending where everything is resolved and find a neat finish, happy more often than not. Sometimes the best ones are those where the ending poses questions, not by being non-sensical or unduly mysterious, but leaving you thinking and feeling about the whole story and the possible what comes after.
Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf is a great example of this. The gorgeous black-and-white cinematography, the electric acting and enormously accomplished script and North's psychologically charged score for a film leaves you in the end nearly as exhausted emotionally and intellectually as the main protagonists. It is a film of high emotions but leaves you thinking about the tragedy and relationship of the characters on a much more general scale and how it might end for them and what makes them as they are. The film partially answers that yes but there is a lot of space for viewer's own input.
Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf is a great example of this. The gorgeous black-and-white cinematography, the electric acting and enormously accomplished script and North's psychologically charged score for a film leaves you in the end nearly as exhausted emotionally and intellectually as the main protagonists. It is a film of high emotions but leaves you thinking about the tragedy and relationship of the characters on a much more general scale and how it might end for them and what makes them as they are. The film partially answers that yes but there is a lot of space for viewer's own input.
Yes that film was an example where I really found Alberto Iglesias' musical style rather wall paperish. It is good for the music to be part of the whole of the story telling not just showing off how it is intellectual and doesn't care for emotion.Who doesn't? I remember watching TINKER TAILOR SOLDIER SPY, thinking how they botched the whole denoument because the score was so subdued. The scene when Colin Firth and Mark Strong look at each other the last time cry out for some musical magic to sell us the broken love between them but the score hushed along in the background with no discernible change in tone or pace to the two hours preceding it.
Ars superior est vita hominum.
"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-
I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-
#87
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 07:28 AM
I saw TTSS and WAR HORSE on one day and both sucked for being on opposite sides of the spectrum. The first was emotional detached feeling like a scientist observing an insect under a microscope, the second was depressingly mundane oscar-whoring on a scale that puts Ron Howard to shame. So it's hard to do find a golden middle ground.
You wouldn't see a subtle plan if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord, singing "Subtle Plans Are Here Again."
#88
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 07:33 AM
That is very true. Finding that right balance of elements is really difficult and especially for all (even majority) of viewers at the same time.
Ars superior est vita hominum.
"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-
I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-
#89
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 07:44 AM
Ahh, the golden feeling of being agreed all the time....
You wouldn't see a subtle plan if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord, singing "Subtle Plans Are Here Again."
#90
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 07:48 AM
Only in this one instance. Don't think it will become a habit! Never I say, never! 
Ars superior est vita hominum.
"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-
I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-
#91
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 07:53 AM
Wait for my long-winded anal track-by-track analyses of recent Williams scores. They will make our bond even stronger!
You wouldn't see a subtle plan if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord, singing "Subtle Plans Are Here Again."
#92
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 07:56 AM
for me the 2 top in my head are E.T. and Disney's Beauty and the Beast.
but I could equally get emotional by Indiana Jones and the temple of doom (which i consider the best adventure film ever made), Superman or even Spacecamp! ( a movie that i also watched dozens of time in VHS when i was a kid).
Curious what parts of TOD do you enjoy? Man i love when Indy says "Right....all of us", and he's bad ass standing in front of the thuggees ready to take them on. Cool part. Lots of cool parts in that movie, also my favorite of the series.
Oh, I love the whole movie.
most of all
-the opening song (absolutely love it, get goosebumps, hehe)
-the whole thuggie ceremony
-the tunnel chase scene
Please, be more polite on the internet when you're talking to someone!
#93
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 08:05 AM
You wouldn't dare!Wait for my long-winded anal track-by-track analyses of recent Williams scores. They will make our bond even stronger!
Ars superior est vita hominum.
"We pop out and come into the world and music is there. We didn't invent it - it's all organised in the atmosphere by divinity or whatever. It's a miracle." - John Williams-
I think music is a stream of some kind. It could be blood. It could be water. It could be ether. Whatever it is it seems to be a living, organic force that’s in motion, that serves humanity and is part of humanity and part of what describes us as humans. We sing, play, dance, all the things that we do. And there is a vibrant and great literature we have been given. ... As musicians, we join the stream. We swim in the stream with all the other millions of music makers. It’s a life force, a strong one, surrounding us and we are part of it. -John Williams-
#94
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 08:07 AM
Don't tempt him!
#95
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 08:16 AM
It would lack the effortless eloquence of Mikko's analysis, though.
#96
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 08:33 AM
Thank you for your inputs but I think many of you didn't quite understand me.
I didn't ask about films that make you emotional through their dramatic plot (eg. someone dies etc.)
but I was talking about films that you get goosebumps and get emotional by their level of craftmanship, and the connection of all the elements (photography, music, scenery etc.) which take cinema in a higher level..
I think I totally got what you were trying to express (see my post on first page).
Every Malick film does it for me sans Badlands, but it's been a long time since I've seen that one.
The New World, the opening using the Vorspiel from Rheingold
Once 1:57 hits I'm there.
This is for me a prime example of a director's pretentiousness. Kubrick's 2001 (with which someone made comparisons) still beats this to a pulp.
"It's still baffling to me. I sit down with a pencil and a piece of paper and do my best... The remarkable thing is that my music is heard by billions of people." --John Williams
"Let me say, however, there is no "next" John Williams. Sadly, he is unique--- a figure who simultaneously embodies and transcends the music of all the masters of film music who preceded him (much like Brahms and Wagner of the Romantic era). He comes from a time when the craft of music in film was still one of the ear, heart and mind. Today, sadly, the craft is largely technical. Most composers do not conceive their music "inwardly" but rather at the computer--- and with rather limited skills, musically, at that. The inner spirit knows no boundaries--- our plastic abilities, sadly, do. John is a man of spirit, heart, intellect and soaring music." -- Conrad Pope about John Williams
"Let me say, however, there is no "next" John Williams. Sadly, he is unique--- a figure who simultaneously embodies and transcends the music of all the masters of film music who preceded him (much like Brahms and Wagner of the Romantic era). He comes from a time when the craft of music in film was still one of the ear, heart and mind. Today, sadly, the craft is largely technical. Most composers do not conceive their music "inwardly" but rather at the computer--- and with rather limited skills, musically, at that. The inner spirit knows no boundaries--- our plastic abilities, sadly, do. John is a man of spirit, heart, intellect and soaring music." -- Conrad Pope about John Williams
#97
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 09:02 AM
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2 had me on the verge of tearing up for the last half of the movie, and none of the other Potter films did this to me
Hunger Games had a few scenes that got me
A.I., the reunion scene
Return of the King, when Frodo and Sam climb Mount Doom
Star Trek 2, when Kirk realizes something happened to Spock at the end
E.T, the Separation and Departure scenes
Close Encounters, the ending sequence
Star Trek 2009. The Kirk birth scene got to me
For TV shows, Lost had a lot of tear inducing episodes
Hunger Games had a few scenes that got me
A.I., the reunion scene
Return of the King, when Frodo and Sam climb Mount Doom
Star Trek 2, when Kirk realizes something happened to Spock at the end
E.T, the Separation and Departure scenes
Close Encounters, the ending sequence
Star Trek 2009. The Kirk birth scene got to me
For TV shows, Lost had a lot of tear inducing episodes
#98
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 09:19 AM
I can get emotional but crying is another story. In my whole life i only cried two times over films in cinema and two times over television episodes.
Films that made me very emotional were off the top of my head: Schindler's List, The Pianist, To Kill a Mockingbird, ET (watching it as a child)
Films that made me very emotional were off the top of my head: Schindler's List, The Pianist, To Kill a Mockingbird, ET (watching it as a child)
The Force Theme Archive
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John Williams CD Series
Which JW scores let you feel summer, winter, autumn and spring
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John Williams CD Series
Which JW scores let you feel summer, winter, autumn and spring
#99
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 09:25 AM
For TV shows, Lost had a lot of tear inducing episodes
Yeah, that show was a bitch in that regard.
#100
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 02:33 PM
Lord of the Rings trilogy has many moments where different aspects of cinematic craftsmanship come together in a way that is both moving and exhilarating, although I am hardly (nor should I be) impartial judge since the novel holds me a large significance. This means that some of these scenes have to an extent transferred parts of my mental images on screen with surprising similarity (in itself a joy of its own kind), others have exceeded my imagination.
You're telling me. When I first watched The Two Towers, my breath was taken away at how accurately they nailed Edoras. I didn't think they could find such a place, even in all of New Zealand. But there it is! Edoras as described in the book! A lone hill under the mighty mountain of Starkhorn.
I think LOTR is so full of moments that will affect with its degree of craftmanship. The sheer amount of work put into that work to really nail the Middle-Earth experience is truly mind-blowing.
Music Muse Reviews: "Escape From Tomorrow by Abel Korzeniowski
#101
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 03:21 PM
Alex makes a good point, emotion isn't all sorry and saddness.
I don't think that any single craft within film other than film music moves me significantly. It must be a chorus of many crafts.
I don't think that any single craft within film other than film music moves me significantly. It must be a chorus of many crafts.
OH God, Joe is posting again, someone hand me my pills!
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
#102
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 04:21 PM
Alex makes a good point, emotion isn't all sorry and saddness.
It was what filmmusic was trying to say from the beginning...
#103
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 04:58 PM
Care to elaborate?
Every Malick film does it for me sans Badlands, but it's been a long time since I've seen that one.
The New World, the opening using the Vorspiel from Rheingold
Once 1:57 hits I'm there.
This is for me a prime example of a director's pretentiousness. Kubrick's 2001 (with which someone made comparisons) still beats this to a pulp.
In 50 years Herrmann will be forgotten.
#104
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:07 PM
sure looks impressive
#105
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:13 PM
You are easily impressed, Dutchman.
#106
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:15 PM
The creation of the universe is "meh" to you?
#107
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:17 PM
No. The creation of the universe according to Malick is.
#108
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:18 PM
so since emotional was not truly defined then the discussion is open to films that fill you with joy, laughter, saddness, sorrow, excitement.
Airplane, no film made me laugh and smile as much as it does.
tree of life is pretentious. is that an emotion?
Airplane, no film made me laugh and smile as much as it does.
tree of life is pretentious. is that an emotion?
OH God, Joe is posting again, someone hand me my pills!
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
#109
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:19 PM
Funniest movie ever made.
#110
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:20 PM
tree of life is pretentious. is that an emotion?
Yes, if pretentiousness makes you angry.
#111
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:23 PM
Airplane, no film made me laugh and smile as much as it does.
It is a perfect comedy.
So is Ferris Bueller, but it's a whole different kind of funny.
#112
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:25 PM
Are you still here, Go...
OH God, Joe is posting again, someone hand me my pills!
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
#113
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:25 PM
I like the movie, but I've never understood its huge appeal. Of that era, I always preferred Weird Science.
#114
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:28 PM
Considering he's pretty much the only director to ever film its creation, I'd like to know what could have been improved. Many people walked out during this scene, but I was completely mesmerized. Not solely because of his use of music, or special effects, but because how it all ties in to his unique narrative. This is a film that only gets better with each viewing, and it's already in my Top 20.No. The creation of the universe according to Malick is.
In 50 years Herrmann will be forgotten.
#115
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:30 PM
I haven't watched that clip because I really must see that film. I'm tempted to have a look, but I mustn't.
#116
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:32 PM
Oh yes, if you have any interest, I recommend you watch it completely fresh within the film itself.
In 50 years Herrmann will be forgotten.
#117
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:37 PM
Considering he's pretty much the only director to ever film its creation, I'd like to know what could have been improved. Many people walked out during this scene, but I was completely mesmerized. Not solely because of his use of music, or special effects, but because how it all ties in to his unique narrative. This is a film that only gets better with each viewing, and it's already in my Top 20.
No. The creation of the universe according to Malick is.
I would greatly enjoy reading a thread by you about your top 20 films similar to your top 10 musical artists thread.
-Jay
#118
Joey
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:42 PM
why don't you make a thread encouraging people to do that, not just Koray, and not just a list thread, but provide explanations. especially on obscure choices.
Considering he's pretty much the only director to ever film its creation, I'd like to know what could have been improved. Many people walked out during this scene, but I was completely mesmerized. Not solely because of his use of music, or special effects, but because how it all ties in to his unique narrative. This is a film that only gets better with each viewing, and it's already in my Top 20.
No. The creation of the universe according to Malick is.
I would greatly enjoy reading a thread by you about your top 20 films similar to your top 10 musical artists thread.
OH God, Joe is posting again, someone hand me my pills!
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
"You're not John Conner, I saw you die, said Kyle". "I was only injured, replied John". "No, your injuries were too severe, you died. Look at you, where are your injuries? You're, you're a Terminator." "Kyle, its still me, yes my body was beyond repair, but my essence is here." He points to his head. "No John". Kyle raised his pulse rifle and aimed it at John but before he could fire, John fired first. Knocked to the ground Kyle looked up at the Terminator in the form of the man he once idolized. All hope was lost. "If you kill me how will you ever be born?" "Thats a good question Kyle, all this time we've focus on Sarah, on John, when had we known the it was you we should have targeted all along." John pointed his rifle at Kyle's face. "The resistance is finished, the battle is won. We the machines are the victors, salvation is ours." Kyle never heard the second shot.
#119
Jason LeBlanc
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:47 PM
Why don't you?
-Jay
#120
Koray Savas
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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:49 PM
Everyone's free to do it. It's all up to the poster to put however much time and effort into the explanations rather than just listing.
The problem with me and films is that there are so many good ones it's hard to keep a list down. I don't even know where The Tree Of Life would fall. Right now I'm not sure if I would put it in a Top 10, which is why I said 20. Hard for me to prefer it over The Thin Red Line.
The problem with me and films is that there are so many good ones it's hard to keep a list down. I don't even know where The Tree Of Life would fall. Right now I'm not sure if I would put it in a Top 10, which is why I said 20. Hard for me to prefer it over The Thin Red Line.
In 50 years Herrmann will be forgotten.
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