242 replies to this topic

[Quint]

Sorry, but I don't value your own musician-centric point of view where music for film is concerned. It's nothing personal.

[Pasi Tiitinen]

So basically musicians do not know anything about film scoring?

[Quint]

Of course I don't think that. That would be a staggeringly ridiculous thing to say.

[Joey]

So basically musicians do not know anything about film scoring?

I would imagine the vast majority of them do not. It's most likely a fact.

[Wojo]

Just because you can drive a car doesn't mean you can build one.

[KK.]

And yet Horner's Aliens score remains superior to 90% of Williams' output in the past ten years.

I never understood people's love for Horner's Aliens score. Yes, those bits of action are just sublime, but other than that, its mostly a lot of atmospheric material, although I understand if people enjoy that. But there's also the fact that this score is extremely derivative. Nearly everything here has been heard in superior forms in past works.

Enjoyable, but not as great as people cut it out to be. I wouldn't really put it above modern Williams.

[Chaac]

It's an exercise of copy paste. It sounds great though. Classic Horner process.

I prefer modern Williams to 80's Horner. Horner has some stuff around like The Land Before Time that I really like though.

[KK.]

It's an exercise of copy paste. It sounds great though. Classic Horner process.

Agreed, the highlights are really great! But there a lot of people who rank Aliens as their favourite Horner. I have a hard time wrapping my head around that.

[Incanus]

This talk just inspired me to listen to Goldsmith's original. The certain kind of economy of his score, creating suspence and horror with carefully paced effects is almost hypnotic until it mounts to the panicky action which is itself built more on tension than outright action drive, the primal bursts of brass in the midst of the carefully constructed orchestral chaos driving fear into our hearts. There is a lot of both craft and understanding of human nature, what makes us afraid or tense and how to express it musically in Goldsmith's work, which of course makes him a master film composer.

Horner's score is pretty great but for me alas too derivative of himself and others to be one of his absolute greats. He continues where Goldsmith left off and inserts the military stance to the music, the action music being much more driving and rousing but he also succeeds in addressing the horror aspect of the story as well with music more closely modelled to Goldsmith's atmospheric style.

Alien scores ended up quite a bit like Star Trek ones where the composers followed each other on the assigments, took different routes (Horner did not slavishly follow Goldsmith's lead with either) with their sensibilities and styles and created such esteemed works for both series that have become genre classic and fan favourites.

[Quint]

So basically musicians do not know anything about film scoring?

I would imagine the vast majority of them do not. It's most likely a fact.

To be fair to Hornist, I didn't want to throw him in with such a sweeping and frankly brutal generalisation of all musicians, but yeah, your way of putting it is much better.

[chuckster312]

Alien scores ended up quite a bit like Star Trek ones where the composers followed each other on the assigments, took different routes (Horner did not slavishly follow Goldsmith's lead with either) with their sensibilities and styles and created such esteemed works for both series that have become genre classic and fan favourites.

Same goes with the Harry Potter series.

[Incanus]

Alien scores ended up quite a bit like Star Trek ones where the composers followed each other on the assigments, took different routes (Horner did not slavishly follow Goldsmith's lead with either) with their sensibilities and styles and created such esteemed works for both series that have become genre classic and fan favourites.

Same goes with the Harry Potter series.

Let's not go there. Please. Let's stick to Alien and Aliens in this thread. This kind of thing can so easily get out of hand.

[Alexcremers]

Paul Reiser's clothes and hair is very 80s.

The whole look of the movie is trapped in the '80s. When I got the Blu-ray set, I watched Aliens directly after Alien and, I must say, the difference came as a shock. In Alien the design is the statement. The attention to detail, the whole look of the film ... watching the extremely detailed, layered, dense Metal Hurlant-ish sets, Giger's amazing work, Scott's skilled registration, it starts to dawn on you that Alien is in fact an artist's exhibition molded into a movie. Ridley Scott also seems to tribute Alien to the designers who worked on it, for it's their names that appear first when the film is over.


Alex

[Quint]

Indeed. But with regards to Aliens, it's a state of mind. Some of us embrace what you call "trapped" - the purposefully negative connotations of which simply do not exist.

[Chaac]

Alien is trapped in an eighties comic book magazine.

[Quint]

Hmm, that's actually a REALLY nice way to spin it.

Nice and insightful, Chaac!

[Alexcremers]

Alien is trapped in an eighties comic book magazine.

You do realize it's made in the '70s?

Nice and insightful, Chaac!

Nice sarcasm, Quint. (I hope)

[Quint]

I assumed it was a typo. He meant Aliens, no?

[Alexcremers]

Let's hope so.



Obi Wan: OMG, there goes our only hope!

Yoda: No, there is another one ...

Obi Wan: Chaac has a sister?

[Chaac]

I was thinking on Metal Hurlant, that started in 1974 and continued into the eighties. And yes I was talking about Alien which I know when it was released. Alien is like something by the Humanoïdes.

In Spain they published Totem with a lot of that kind of work from 1977 into the eighties.

I could just have said the seventies as well.

[Pasi Tiitinen]

So basically musicians do not know anything about film scoring?

I would imagine the vast majority of them do not. It's most likely a fact.

To be fair to Hornist, I didn't want to throw him in with such a sweeping and frankly brutal generalisation of all musicians, but yeah, your way of putting it is much better.

I think you are both right. My message was more like if you are a musician it is possible to understand(and even like) film scoring/music.

They are not necessarily all elitist a-holes to be ignored by Quint who btw delicately avoided his true opinion.

[Quint]

I don't think elitism is the issue at all, actually. More a musician's natural bias towards sophisticated music theory - which I absolutely do believe can cloud judgement as to what great score is or can be.

I was thinking on Metal Hurlant, that started in 1974 and continued into the eighties. And yes I was talking about Alien which I know when it was released. Alien is like something by the Humanoïdes.

In Spain they published Totem with a lot of that kind of work from 1977 into the eighties.

I could just have said the seventies as well.

Semantics. Your earlier description still provided a spot-on summary of Aliens own style, which is definitely a way which I like to think of the movie. It's rather amusing that you contributed indirectly, though.

[Alexcremers]

I was thinking on Metal Hurlant

Which I brought up, yes. It's one of the film's best attributes. It can't be dated to the '80s since the style (not that everything in Alien is Metal Hurlant) existed before and after that.

[Quint]

The original Terminator is more in line with that thinking than the original Alien movie, I'd argue.

[Alexcremers]

The Terminator sure looks and feels '80s but doesn't yet reek of the Reagan era machismo.

[Chaac]

My point is simply that things are "trapped in a look" when you don't like it.

I can't distinguish that Reagan era thing very well.

[Quint]

The Terminator sure looks and feels '80s but doesn't yet reek of the Reagan era machismo.

Yeah, true. But the comics, the aesthetic. They're a match.

Then again, I don't associate the dumb cocksure marines of Aliens with the 80s macho phase AT ALL. They all die, after all. Like they did in 'Nam.

Nah, Aliens wasn't 80s macho; I think that would be the view of someone who doesn't get it. The narrative of Aliens has a lot in common with its later homage, Starship Troopers.

Now, if we're talking Arnie and Stallone 80s macho, well then that's another kettle of fish. Macho movies where the big man got to kill illegal aliens and get the girl.

[Chaac]

In Aliens it's the female civilian that rules. It's... well, it's a James Cameron film.

[Alexcremers]

My point is simply that things are "trapped in a look" when you don't like it.

I suppose that's true, but my point is quite different. I don't hate the look of the '80s (Blade Runner is one of my favorite films!) or any certain style or era, as long as the style elevates the film to a much higher level. Films like Alien, 2001: A Space Odyssey or Blade Runner are visual masterpieces. They have in common that they are made from a very artistic point of view. Through style, the viewer is invited to look at them differently. On the other hand, visually, Aliens does very little more than most other movies from that time. That's what makes this movie boring for me nowadays. I already know the story and the characters and there doesn't seem be anything beyond that. I have the same 'problem' with Verhoeven's science fiction movies. I liked them at the time but they don't offer me anything today.

Nah, Aliens wasn't 80s macho;

Sorry, but it is very well known for that. Just saying "nah" doesn't do that away. Denying the typical machochism in Aliens is quite strange. I know discussing this is almost impossible. I know you adore Aliens and Cameron. You will say 'no' to everything I say.

[Chaac]

Aliens is writen in that way consciously and then subverts it. The marines end up being useless, Hudson cries around, and Ripley is the ultimate badass. The final confrontantion is a confrontation of mothers.

As for the "nah", you do it yourself. Only you say "meh".

And why does Blade Runner look eighties? It looks to me like The Long Tomorrow.

Another thing I find funny is how you say you already know the story and the characters, but you never know "already" the visuals of these films.

[Quint]

Jeez, Mr Literal Thinker strikes again. Aliens is macho ON THE FACE OF IT. It's DESIGNED to be. The commentary beneath the surface is very DIFFERENT. Do you know what irony even is?

Just stick to your pretty pictures, blinkered obtuse man. Again, you demonstrate you know fuck all about movies beyond what they look like.

Did you spot the very obvious subtext in this post? I hope you did because maybe you won't waste your time replying to it. But knowing you, I won't hold my breath.

[Alexcremers]

And why does Blade Runner look eighties?

Because throughout the '80s a lot of elements were copied from the movie. It is responsible for how a lot of films and music videos looked like in the '80s.

[Krang]

I like the directors cut of Aliens more than the regular and directors cut of Alien. But both films are great and truly compliment each other. The first Alien film is the perfect representation of big things having small beginnings. It's very intimate and plays well off the horror of the Alien. The second film takes it all to the next logical step but exceeds expectations with character development and special effects. Not to mention a satisfying conclusion.

Alien 3 however....

[Chaac]

And why does Blade Runner look eighties?

Because throughout the '80s a lot of elements were copied from the movie. It is responsible for how a lot of films and music videos looked like in the '80s.

But the look is based on preexisting stuff. The look predates the film and can't be called "eighties".

[Alexcremers]

And why does Blade Runner look eighties?

Because throughout the '80s a lot of elements were copied from the movie. It is responsible for how a lot of films and music videos looked like in the '80s.

But the look is based on preexisting stuff. The look predates the film and can't be called "eighties".

The cocktail, however, was new and since it helped shape the '80s ...

Another thing I find funny is how you say you already know the story and the characters, but you never know "already" the visuals of these films.

Of course! When done right, visuals tell a different story every time. Like music, it's more abstract and way less literal as story or characters.

[Chaac]

When done right? Visuals are always the same in a film to me. Once I've seen them, I can't unsee them. Do I have to interpret that literally?

[Alexcremers]

Sadly enough, that is true for most movies. That's why I treasure movies that visually suggest and evoke new things each time I see them.

[Chaac]

Come to think of it I don't think I actually care about films suggesting me new things every time. It can always be the same (because it is) and I still can enjoy it if I like it.

And of course I need the whole package. I can't only consider a side of the filmmaking. For me, everything needs to be perfect. That's why when Thor says the story doesn't matter in Alien I'm completely baffled, for example. If I didn't like the story I wouldn't like it.

[Alexcremers]

Come to think of it I don't think I actually care about films suggesting me new things every time.

Well, how can you value it if you never experienced it?

And of course I need the whole package. I can't only consider a side of the filmmaking. For me, everything needs to be perfect. That's why when Thor says the story doesn't matter in Alien I'm completely baffled, for example. If I didn't like the story I wouldn't like it.

That's a different topic. The stories and characters of both films are fine, but since I'm so familiar with them, I'm trying to look beyond that.

[shockwave]

Gotta go with Alien, it was my first R rated movie I saw. Love the music, the look and the big chap.