"They're digging in the wrong place..."

[Quintus 6,499]

I'd appreciate it if you took a moment to turn up your volume and let this cue play out:

What did you think of it? It's very good I hope you'll agree. It's from a video game, performed by the London Philharmonic and it's composed by Jeremy Soule: a man who has been described as "the John Williams of video game music".

In my opinion a cue like the one above matches the quality of composition and aesthetic enchantment as anything heard in the Lord of the Rings or Conan the Barbarian scores, which are rightly regarded as noteworthy works in the medium.

So why aren't more video game composers moving into film? Why are we - the enthusiasts of film score craft - not casting a wider net in search of the stylistic symphonic sound we love and appreciate so dearly? Why are we seemingly only looking (largely in vein) for new talent within the established medium itself; when it's pretty clear to some of us already that there is great talent and great music actually out there right now which should be discovered and then nurtured by us keen listeners, some of whom feel starved of quality orchestral film music and by all accounts tired of the new wave techniques which are now considered the norm.

I sincerely believe the new John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith is out there now, plugging away at his/her craft in some less appreciated entertainment medium, just lacking that big break, that quickly spreading positive word-of-mouth which might enable them to realise their full potential. But in order for it to happen surely it would be a help if those suffering through the drought would start looking a bit further afield for the return of great film music instead of lamenting the fading of its comfortably established greats.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,110]

I think what's interesting Lee, I've listened the album this and the BF1942 video you posted yesterday are on, and Jeremy Soule's works are the only ones that seem to really translate effortlessly to a full orchestra without sounding off somehow. He's got a lot of chops.

But I'm sure he will be obliterated here as a Zimmer-clone for not having a formal education in composition/being a self-taught savant type, and for working with synths in his games.

In that same vein, a large number of film music fans continue to demonstrate a high degree of snobbery when it comes to other mediums. "GAMES?! What devilry! Childish! No music for such monstrosities can be good!"

[Quintus 6,499]

I think what's interesting Lee, I've listened the album this and the BF1942 video you posted yesterday are on, and Jeremy Soule's works are the only ones that seem to really translate effortlessly to a full orchestra without sounding off somehow.

Most of the tracks on that album aren't up to scratch by film music standards, but indeed these two are. The original versions of both were actually performed by orchestras, though. The BF one in more recent titles. Naturally, smaller orchestras were used and usually for budgetary reasons. Hearing broader arrangements is what this is thread is all about: potential.

[gkgyver 1,647]

His music is gorgeous.

But the Williams/Goldsmith comparison is a little too far-fetched I think. His music IMO lacks a certain punch to really be competive with these men.

[Quintus 6,499]

I But I'm sure he will be obliterated here as a Zimmer-clone for not having a formal education in composition/being a self-taught savant type, and for working with synths in his games.

In that same vein, a large number of film music fans continue to demonstrate a high degree of snobbery when it comes to other mediums. "GAMES?! What devilry! Childish! No music for such monstrosities can be good!"

I hesitated to touch on that unfortunate stance in my OP when considering the possible answers to the questions posed, but decided I'd let it arrive into the conversation in its own time. Took one post.

The truth about that outlook though is this: it's self-defeating. Fans of great symphonic film music and its current state really ought to realise asap that they're in no good position to be "snobby" toward alternative sources of potentially promising new talent, regardless of their training and methods. This is the 21st century, Max Steiner's pencil which wrote King Kong is dust.

That is of course assuming on my part that said naynayers are really as predominant as it can sometimes seem.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,110]

I think what's interesting Lee, I've listened the album this and the BF1942 video you posted yesterday are on, and Jeremy Soule's works are the only ones that seem to really translate effortlessly to a full orchestra without sounding off somehow.

Most of the tracks on that album aren't up to scratch by film music standards, but indeed these two are. The original versions of both were actually performed by orchestras, though. The BF one in more recent titles. Naturally, smaller orchestras were used and usually for budgetary reasons. Hearing broader arrangements is what this is thread is all about: potential.

I swear I'm 99.99% sure all of Soule's Elder Scrolls games use really good samples. I do know for a fact that Skyrim's only use of live "instruments" is a 30-person choir. Everything else are samples he and his brother engineered.

His music is gorgeous.

But the Williams/Goldsmith comparison is a little too far-fetched I think. His music IMO lacks a certain punch to really be competive with these men.

I can present evidence to the contrary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VbLTGy0TFk

[Quintus 6,499]

You may well be right, but are you sure you aren't referring to his Oblivion? Which is quite clearly synthetically produced.

Edit: Just heard your link. It's obviously synthesized. The cue I linked to though, when the original was heard in the game was far less bombastic and was only ever played idyllically in the background during traversal. Basically: far more acoustic and less easy to discern its production integrity.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,110]

Yup. His samples for Skyrim are *that* good.

[gkgyver 1,647]

Like I said, great music, but he lacks that "inevitability" Williams talks about.

[Sharkissimo 1,978]

'tis alright, I suppose. Though like most of Jeremy Soule's stuff, it's a bit syrupy and lacking guts for my taste. He's talented, but the ridiculous hype ("the next John Williams'") does him no favours.

If this is the best video game music has got to offer...

[BLUMENKOHL 1,110]

Like I said, great music, but he lacks that "inevitability" Williams talks about.

Refresh my memory?

'tis alright, I suppose. Though like most of Jeremy Soule's stuff, it's a bit syrupy and lacking guts for my taste. He's talented, but the ridiculous hype ("the next John Williams'") does him no favours.

I think Lee's greater point isn't Jeremy Soule, rather that there's great music being written for other mediums, and we're sort of turning a blind eye to it all.

[Quintus 6,499]

Yup. His samples for Skyrim are *that* good.

Well, if that is the case then I am all for the technological approach to film scoring craft, if this music is what can be the product of it. It's clearly a hugely important tool.

Honestly, the detractors of such an approach must surely be tarnishing everyone with the same brush based on the onslaught of Zimmerite music which surrounds us everywhere. Which is wrong.

'If this is the best video game music has got to offer...

For my money, it's more enjoyable than anything I've heard in film since Tintin. War Horse didn't particularly float my boat.

Ironically, I think the Skyrim piece would have been better suited to that movie over much of what John Williams came up with himself.

Sacrilege?

'tis alright, I suppose. Though like most of Jeremy Soule's stuff, it's a bit syrupy and lacking guts for my taste. He's talented, but the ridiculous hype ("the next John Williams'") does him no favours.

I think Lee's greater point isn't Jeremy Soule, rather that there's great music being written for other mediums, and we're sort of turning a blind eye to it all.

This.

[Uni 307]

I think Skyrim is an astonishing accomplishment in scoring. I don't care how he did it; the music pervades and elevates the atmosphere of the created world, and when experienced apart from the game, loses nothing in terms of substance and eloquence.

Of course, I doubt there's much of a future for samplers in the filmusic industry. But if it's making games into "living movies" (which is how I think of Skyrim), then I hope it continues to follow this vein to even better things.

- Uni

[Quintus 6,499]

Of course, I doubt there's much of a future for samplers in the filmusic industry.

Hmm, isn't part of the "problem" that they already are firmly in the industry?

[Koray Savas 2,260]

Skyrim is synth? Fooled my ears.

I really think someone like Joris De Man or Greg Edmonson would do wonders with a Hollywood blockbuster, but it must be considered that composers are so much more free creatively to experiment and do what they please than with films. Put Soule under a top producer like Bruckheimer and his voice will be crushed.

[Maurizio 6,913]

In my own very humble opinion, the "problem" lies within the Hollywood industry itself, which always had and still has the tendency of pigeon-holing individual talents.

There are quite a few great contemporary composers who writes emotional, engaging, direct, creative music... but they simply are not writing for Hollywood movies. I'm talking about people like Eric Whitacre, Mason Bates, Kevin Puts, Peter Boyer, Kevin Kaska and a few others. Then there are highly talented composers like Austin Wintory who found great creative stimulus within the videogame industry. Oh, and don't let me started with the current exciting generation of young European composers who write for independent films over here.

And you know what's the irony? It's that almost EVERY ONE of these talented fellas recognize publicly composers like Williams, Goldsmith, Barry, Morricone among their major influences.

In a nutshell: the talent is definitely out there. There are a lot of great composers who are writing and even experimenting highly creative stuff intermingling traditional concert presentation with visual media (check out some of Mason Bates' stuff or Whitacre's virtual choir projects). But all of this is happening outside Hollywood.

In my opinion, the future of media music has a much broader scope than the one currently proposed by Hollywood studio productions.

[Quintus 6,499]

Skyrim is synth? Fooled my ears.

it must be considered that composers are so much more free creatively to experiment and do what they please than with films. Put Soule under a top producer like Bruckheimer and his voice will be crushed.

Excellent point, and a stark truth.

[Koray Savas 2,260]

Definitely, compare Badelt in Hollywood to now where he's exclusive to Europe.

[Quintus 6,499]

In my opinion, the future of media music has a much broader scope than the one currently proposed by Hollywood studio productions.

Indeed. Now, how do we somehow harness that talent and set it to work in mainstream film? By accepting, congratulating and encouraging it.

[Sharkissimo 1,978]

There are quite a few great contemporary composers who writes emotional, engaging, direct, creative music...

Is that how you'd describe John Williams's concert music, or Jerry Goldsmith's late 60s/early 70s works, or Elliot Goldenthal's? Find the adjectives you'd use for those, and find the contemporary concert composers that those adjectives apply to.

Whoever they are, I think they'd write more interesting, compelling, innovative, and eclectic film music.

[Sandor 918]

In that same vein, a large number of film music fans continue to demonstrate a high degree of snobbery when it comes to other mediums. "GAMES?! What devilry! Childish! No music for such monstrosities can be good!"

Ever since The Last Ninja, I knew video games could have excellent, film score quality music.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,110]

In addition to greater creative freedom I also think it helps to have practical limitations imposed on you. A few video games have big budgets, but even they don't have the vast budgets of a Hollywood film, and especially not when it comes to music. I think working under limitations is conducive to better work, as counter-intuitive as it might seem. It forces the artists to be extra resourceful and creative.

[Sharkissimo 1,978]

There's good video game music, for sho. But truly great? I've yet to hear it.

[gkgyver 1,647]

Like I said, great music, but he lacks that "inevitability" Williams talks about.

Refresh my memory?

It's in interviews about creating his themes (he was talking about the Raiders March), how painstaking it is to go through so many permutations to create that feeling like it's always been there, like nothing else could work. It's also in the Raiders liner notes I think.

[Sharkissimo 1,978]

In addition to greater creative freedom I also think it helps to have practical limitations imposed on you. A few video games have big budgets, but even they don't have the vast budgets of a Hollywood film, and especially not when it comes to music. I think working under limitations is conducive to better work, as counter-intuitive as it might seem. It forces the artists to be extra resourceful and creative.

I think that was true to some extent when sample libraries didn't exist, and video game composers still wrote on manuscript paper. They had to economise more and use their imagination.

[BloodBoal 8,711]

There's good video game music, for sure. But truly great? I've yet to hear it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5QLmgSm30s

[Quintus 6,499]

Imo there's been easily as much "great" music written for games as has been written for the film medium. It's something I never even consider. I suppose it's a case of exposure.

In that same vein, a large number of film music fans continue to demonstrate a high degree of snobbery when it comes to other mediums. "GAMES?! What devilry! Childish! No music for such monstrosities can be good!"

Ever since The Last Ninja, I knew video games could have excellent, film score quality music.

Sandor, you have just earned +100 respect with this post in my eyes.

Although for me LN2 was the musical pinnacle of that most precious series.

[Brónach 1,330]

There's good video game music, for sho. But truly great? I've yet to hear it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez3o3H2PIJ4

[Muad'Dib 2,059]

There's plenty of great video game music on this thread:

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19550&hl=%2Bvideo+%2Bgame

[KK 3,313]

The video game music bias is ridiculous. There is great music written for video games out there that people should explore. Heck, Giacchino came from that world and now half the board here worships his feet!

Here are some great works:

Skyrim has some great moments, but at times I could only take all the atmospheric stuff. It would be really nice to hear more of Soule's work translated to an orchestral setting.

Also, we don't seem to be giving much credit to the up and coming foreign composers out there. Guys like Nuno Malo, Arnau Bataller, Naoki Sato (more of a veteran) and Abel Korzeniowski have some major compositional chops.

Yes, we should look towards other mediums for more talent, but I had it when people say "most of film music today is crap, only Desplat and Giacchino are left...". It's not that film music is dry of talent, it's just we're not choosing to look at all options!

[BloodBoal 8,711]

There's good video game music, for sho. But truly great? I've yet to hear it.

I decided not to put that video in my previous message, since I already posted that video more than enough times on the forum, but it's good to see other people posting it.

[Quintus 6,499]

There's plenty of great video game music on this thread:

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19550&hl=%2Bvideo+%2Bgame

Yes, I'm all for the sharing of new music, but there is already a dedicated thread for that and I'd rather Jason didn't feel the need to merge this with the other one. This one should be about the debate.

[Sandor 918]

Imo there's been easily as much "great" music written for games as has been written for the film medium. It's something I never even consider. I suppose it's a case of exposure.

In that same vein, a large number of film music fans continue to demonstrate a high degree of snobbery when it comes to other mediums. "GAMES?! What devilry! Childish! No music for such monstrosities can be good!"

Ever since The Last Ninja, I knew video games could have excellent, film score quality music.

Sandor, you have just earned +100 respect with this post in my eyes.

Although for me LN2 was the musical pinnacle of that most precious series.

Thanks man. Last Ninja 2 was probably my most played game during the 80's and the music - especially the main theme - haunts me 'till this day. It's THAT good.

Ever hear the orchestral arrangement that was made a few years back..? It's awesome.

[SF1_freeze 138]

Thanks for creating this thread Lee, Jeremy Soule indeed writes fantastic scores. Just take Kotor, how good the thematic material is. And he pulled it off without having an orchestra.

Video game music nowadays more than often rivals film music in diversity and quality, but there is also amazing videogame music from the past.

Some of my favorites are already posted here like "Monkey Island 3: The Curse of Monkey Island" or "Crisis Core - Fulfilled Desire". I also love the "Zelda Wind Waker Suite", the Kotor 1 and 2 scores and some of the older Super Mario melodies.

The main Super Mario Brothers theme was arranged for full orchestra and conducted by John Williams during his Boston Pops tenure.

[Quintus 6,499]

Thanks man. Last Ninja 2 was probably my most played game during the 80's and the music - especially the main theme - haunts me 'till this day. It's THAT good.

Ever hear the orchestral arrangement that was made a few years back..? It's awesome.

I've heard pretty much every arrangement of every single cue

But which one exactly do you mean? It might be a bit heavy for your tastes, but one of my favourites for that nostalgic hit is "Last Ninja 2 - Guitar Remix"

Thanks for creating this thread Lee, Jeremy Soule indeed writes fantastic scores. Just take Kotor, how good the thematic material is. And he pulled it off without having an orchestra.

Video game music nowadays more than often rivals film music in diversity and quality, but there is also amazing videogame music from the past.

Honestly, I've all but given up on film music in its current state right now. The modern scene for music for video games has for me pretty much eclipsed all Hollywood/mainstream output. It's great to feel a part of its appreciation when elsewhere there is disillusionment.

[Sharkissimo 1,978]

The video game music bias is ridiculous. There is great music written for video games out there that people should explore. Heck, Giacchino came from that world and now half the board here worships his feet!

Not me.

Listened to all of the examples posted. As I said before, they're fairly pleasant - but not "great." I guess having fond memories associated with these games and their music (to cloud my judgement) would help here, which I don't have.

I know I'll hated for saying this but - but the greatest video game music doesn't hold a candle to greatest of what film music has to offer. No way. Not in scope, range, orchestration, innovation, or sheer imagination. It's mostly third rate, recycled and regurgitated. John Williams passed through a blender, injected with manufactured schmaltz and "epic" (how I hate word), and vomited out by East West Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra.

[Brónach 1,330]

I don't have them either.

Quite frankly, there isn't any magical force at work that dictates that videgame scores can't be great, just like there isn't one for music written for film or the concert hall...

[Sandor 918]

Lee, I love the Guitar Remix..! I also have a purely orchestral recording of the piece somewhere. Will look it up.

[Quintus 6,499]

The video game music bias is ridiculous. There is great music written for video games out there that people should explore. Heck, Giacchino came from that world and now half the board here worships his feet!

Not me.

Listened to all of the examples posted. As I said before, they're fairly pleasant - but not "great." I guess having fond memories associated with these games and their music (to cloud my judgement) would help here, which I don't have.

Well certainly, personal affection - like the best films and their music - more often than not plays a significant part in the appreciation of particular pieces. That's a universal given though and applies to all emotional reactions to music beloved by the listener for all sorts of personal reasons. I think it's a little unfair to make swift judgements on the musical art form and I don't think you've made any sort of point by posting your reactions to the tracks shared here.

It's a rare thing indeed for anyone to feel an instant connection with music of any genre, even when a track might be immediately "catchy" on a basic, visceral level. It's a shame if you normally make your mind up about a piece based off the back of a single listen, Prometheus. Some of my own personal all-time favourites were not that at all, initially.

[Rachael Foley 10,162]

Film music will never be great, its not loopable.

[BloodBoal 8,711]

Film music will never be great, its not loopable.

Some of the MV stuff is.

[Sharkissimo 1,978]

Quite frankly, there isn't any magical force at work that dictates that videgame scores can't be great

You're right, it's not magical.

[Rachael Foley 10,162]

Bloodboal, Thats because they are not real film composers.

[Quintus 6,499]

I know I'll hated for saying this but - but the greatest video game music doesn't hold a candle to greatest of what film music has to offer. No way. Not in scope, range, orchestration, innovation, or sheer imagination. It's mostly third rate, recycled and regurgitated. John Williams passed through a blender, injected with manufactured schmaltz and "epic" (how I hate word), and vomited out by East West Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra.

Ah, the agenda has been revealed. You're entitled to your opinion of course (even if I think it's ignorant bull personified), but I do wonder why you bothered to participate to begin with, given your true beliefs on the subject. Please don't feel the need to humour me now or in the future, it's really not necessary.

[Sharkissimo 1,978]

I know I'll hated for saying this but - but the greatest video game music doesn't hold a candle to greatest of what film music has to offer. No way. Not in scope, range, orchestration, innovation, or sheer imagination. It's mostly third rate, recycled and regurgitated. John Williams passed through a blender, injected with manufactured schmaltz and "epic" (how I hate word), and vomited out by East West Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra.

Ah, the agenda has been revealed. You're entitled to your opinion of course (even if I think it's ignorant bull personified), but I do wonder why you bothered to participate to begin with, given your true beliefs on the subject. Please don't feel the need to humour me now or in the future, it's really not necessary.

Why did I bother to participate? To offer a contrary view, ignorant bullshit or not. Otherwise this thread would risk turning into an echo chamber.

[Rachael Foley 10,162]

John Williams sucks, he doesn't write with a quill pen, there is no emotion in pencil music !

Purcell is the man !

[Sharkissimo 1,978]

It ain't the same. Keep trying.

[Quintus 6,499]

I know I'll hated for saying this but - but the greatest video game music doesn't hold a candle to greatest of what film music has to offer. No way. Not in scope, range, orchestration, innovation, or sheer imagination. It's mostly third rate, recycled and regurgitated. John Williams passed through a blender, injected with manufactured schmaltz and "epic" (how I hate word), and vomited out by East West Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra.

Ah, the agenda has been revealed. You're entitled to your opinion of course (even if I think it's ignorant bull personified), but I do wonder why you bothered to participate to begin with, given your true beliefs on the subject. Please don't feel the need to humour me now or in the future, it's really not necessary.

Why did I bother to participate? To offer a contrary view, ignorant bullshit or not. Otherwise this thread would risk turning into an echo chamber.

I wonder if that's Freudian. Do your own compositions sound like they were recorded in such vacuous conditions? You brought a contrary view delivered with the eloquence and perception of a stone-deaf Techno DJ. But thanks anyway, your comments have been archived.

[Sharkissimo 1,978]

I know I'll hated for saying this but - but the greatest video game music doesn't hold a candle to greatest of what film music has to offer. No way. Not in scope, range, orchestration, innovation, or sheer imagination. It's mostly third rate, recycled and regurgitated. John Williams passed through a blender, injected with manufactured schmaltz and "epic" (how I hate word), and vomited out by East West Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra.

Ah, the agenda has been revealed. You're entitled to your opinion of course (even if I think it's ignorant bull personified), but I do wonder why you bothered to participate to begin with, given your true beliefs on the subject. Please don't feel the need to humour me now or in the future, it's really not necessary.

Why did I bother to participate? To offer a contrary view, ignorant bullshit or not. Otherwise this thread would risk turning into an echo chamber.

I wonder if that's Freudian. Do your own compositions sound like they were recorded in such vacuous conditions? You brought a contrary view delivered with the eloquence and perception of a stone-deaf Techno DJ. But thanks anyway, your comments have been archived.

Lee, apologies if I've hit a nerve. I can a bit blunt and insensitive (was stone deaf a pun or typo?).

[Quintus 6,499]

No nerves were hit, I just opted to deal with you on your own terms

Stone-deaf is a British English adjective.