Making sense of John Williams' early piano/orchestration work on other people's scores

[Thor 9,362]

I'm wondering if there exists a complete list of all the scores that John Williams worked on from 1956 and onwards -- in the capacity as pianist (and sometimes orchestrator)? There is one here at jwfan, but I sense that it doesn't include all of his gigs in this period?

Thanks.

[Miguel Andrade 1,727]

I would agree that one is hardly complete.

On a side note, while I've read that Williams worked on Mancini's "Breakfast at Tifanny's", on the album has Jimmy Rowles playing. Probably an album re-recording...

[Thor 9,362]

Yeah, I believe it has been said that Williams played only on the film soundtrack, which has -- to my recollection -- not been released on album.

I'm finding the important "segue period" in Williams' career in 1956 to be extremely difficult to chart. Of course, he continued playing piano and orchestrating other people's scores long after he made his debut as a composer himself (both for tv and film), but the timespan between his move to LA and his first RECORDING gig seems shorter than first assumed (we usually say that he played piano for years before he got his first gig). For example, I think the recording of the 1956 album RUSSELL GARCIA PLAYS JOHN EVERGREENS (where Williams plays piano) predates the recording of the JOHN TOWNER TOUCH album in October-56. So he can't have been in LA more than a couple of months, maximum, before he was called in to make albums!

Anyway, I digress. I guess I have to go on another treasure hunt to chart all of JW's score/piano/orchestration work.

It is often suggested that Alfred Newman's SOUTH PACIFIC was the first score he worked on in Hollywood. However, the film and album was released in March-1958, which means that it was probably recorded in late 1957 or early 1958. So only a few months before his first score for either M SQUAD or DADDY-O and after he had recorded several jazz albums. Not years.

Oh God, this is all so confusing!

[Omen II 1,300]

There is one here at jwfan, but I sense that it doesn't include all of his gigs in this period?

I cannot help you with a complete list, Thor, but one major omission from that list is that John Williams was one of the pianists on Jerome Moross's legendary score for The Big Country. It's quite something that Johnny played on at least two of the greatest western scores of all time, The Magnificent Seven being the other one. The former also featured another well-known film composer, Dominic Frontiere, on accordion.

[Thor 9,362]

A related question: What is the first ever film John Williams worked on in this capacity?

I have not been able to find any film earlier than CAROUSEL (1956), scored by Alfred Newman. According to Mike Mattesino, Williams was on the Fox scoring stage -- I presume in the beginning of January, 1956, since the film was released on February 16, 1956 -- to observe the master in action, when his fiancee Barbara Ruick (who starred in the film and was there to record a song) introduced him to Newman. Apparently, the old master was so impressed by the budding composer that he allowed him to orchestrate a few pieces on the film -- uncredited. I have no idea which pieces they were or if they can be heard on the album.

Do you know of any earlier film involvements in the industry (piano or arrangement)?

[karelm 3,271]

My understanding was that his early composition career was more like this:

1. As a session pianist with a jazz performance background, he sometimes was asked to provide an improvisation for a few bars.

2. Then, he was asked to write a chart of the improvisation using prexisting material. This is effectively an arrangement.

3. His bosses like the quality of the work so eventually he gets more arranging assignments with more responsibilities. This becomes orchestration and sometimes writing when new material is added. More requests are made until...

4. A composer is born.

Since he was working in a studio system it might be difficult to find cue sheet details on exactly what he arranged because at that time, he was more like an employee working for a corporation than an independent.

[Thor 9,362]

Yeah, that has been the assumption for a long time (including Williams' own memory), but evidence suggests that he was thrown into "deeper waters" at a much earlier stage. There is loads of stuff in 1956, when he moved back to LA, that is more than just piano playing and a few bars of improv. Same for 1957 and 1958. And in 1958, he was already composing scores for television and film all on his own! So the gradual evolution you talk about (which would be the most sensible, I agree) seems to be a truth with some modification.

[karelm 3,271]

Yeah, that has been the assumption for a long time (including Williams' own memory), but evidence suggests that he was thrown into "deeper waters" at a much earlier stage. There is loads of stuff in 1956, when he moved back to LA, that is more than just piano playing and a few bars of improv. Same for 1957 and 1958. And in 1958, he was already composing scores for television and film all on his own! So the gradual evolution you talk about (which would be the most sensible, I agree) seems to be a truth with some modification.

But weren't these early films and tv projects more like throw aways? For example, the bosses would in effect be saying "I'll pass on this" and push it down the ranks? It wasn't how he made his living yet but was just a minor incremental step in a long gestation because he was still playing and arranging for years to come though scoring some B and C projects. Of course fans like us will hear the "fingerprints" of his talent already there, My understanding is his success and birth as a film composer came slowly and that can be missed if looking at his roster with perfect hindsight of who he would become.

[Thor 9,362]

Yeah, that has been the assumption for a long time (including Williams' own memory), but evidence suggests that he was thrown into "deeper waters" at a much earlier stage. There is loads of stuff in 1956, when he moved back to LA, that is more than just piano playing and a few bars of improv. Same for 1957 and 1958. And in 1958, he was already composing scores for television and film all on his own! So the gradual evolution you talk about (which would be the most sensible, I agree) seems to be a truth with some modification.

But weren't these early films and tv projects more like throw aways? For example, the bosses would in effect be saying "I'll pass on this" and push it down the ranks? It wasn't how he made his living yet but was just a minor incremental step in a long gestation because he was still playing and arranging for years to come though scoring some B and C projects. Of course fans like us will hear the "fingerprints" of his talent already there, My understanding is his success and birth as a film composer came slowly and that can be missed if looking at his roster with perfect hindsight of who he would become.

I don't know about 'slowly'. At a mere 25-26 years old, he was already a sought-after pianist, arranger AND composer.

There is a LOT of stuff happening between his move to LA in (early) 1956 and his first scoring gig in (late) 1958 (which was either M SQUAD or DADDY-O). A whole bunch of jazz albums (including a couple of ORIGINAL compositions), but also arranging & playing piano for bigger and bigger projects -- all over the course of just two and a half years! I'd say that is a pretty fast rise to fame. Obviously, he didn't become an A-list composer untill HOW TO STEAL A MILLION (1966), but that's a different topic.

[karelm 3,271]

Yeah, that has been the assumption for a long time (including Williams' own memory), but evidence suggests that he was thrown into "deeper waters" at a much earlier stage. There is loads of stuff in 1956, when he moved back to LA, that is more than just piano playing and a few bars of improv. Same for 1957 and 1958. And in 1958, he was already composing scores for television and film all on his own! So the gradual evolution you talk about (which would be the most sensible, I agree) seems to be a truth with some modification.

But weren't these early films and tv projects more like throw aways? For example, the bosses would in effect be saying "I'll pass on this" and push it down the ranks? It wasn't how he made his living yet but was just a minor incremental step in a long gestation because he was still playing and arranging for years to come though scoring some B and C projects. Of course fans like us will hear the "fingerprints" of his talent already there, My understanding is his success and birth as a film composer came slowly and that can be missed if looking at his roster with perfect hindsight of who he would become.

I don't know about 'slowly'. At a mere 25-26 years old, he was already a sought-after pianist, arranger AND composer.

There is a LOT of stuff happening between his move to LA in (early) 1956 and his first scoring gig in (late) 1958 (which was either M SQUAD or DADDY-O). A whole bunch of jazz albums (including a couple of ORIGINAL compositions), but also arranging & playing piano for bigger and bigger projects -- all over the course of just two and a half year! I'd say that is a pretty fast rise to fame. Obviously, he didn't become an A-list composer untill HOW TO STEAL A MILLION (1966), but that's a different topic.

"Slowly" is how he described it at the USC visit and there were many lean years with slow progress. This does not detract from his talent but rather demonstrates his persistence and work ethic. I think there is more evidence that his birth as a film composing titan was gradual and tepid. Why do you conclude he was "sought after" just because he was employed in a studio in the 1950s?

[Thor 9,362]

"Slowly" is how he described it at the USC visit and there were many lean years with slow progress. This does not detract from his talent but rather demonstrates his persistence and work ethic. I think there is more evidence that his birth as a film composing titan was gradual and tepid. Why do you conclude he was "sought after" just because he was employed in a studio in the 1950s?

Because the assignments were high profile -- CAROUSEL, SOUTH PACIFIC, SWEET SMELL OF SUCCESS, FUNNY FACE, PETER GUNN, PORGY AND BESS etc....these were huge projects that weren't just given to any odd pianist.

I know that Williams often describes the evolution the way you do...a slow process/lean years etc., but I think that's the distance of time playing tricks on him. The fact is that he was thrown into arranging almost immediately upon arriving in Hollywood, and simultaneously as his piano gigs. He was a very "busy bee" in those years -- both in and out of the movie business.

[Marcus 395]

I think we ought to keep Williams' modesty in mind as far as his own assertions go; it seems he'd be naturally inclined not to talk of early recognition and quick career ascension, but rather to stress a work ethic of diligence and dicipline.

[Thor 9,362]

Absolutely.

[Thor 9,362]

OK, I've assembled this list based on the information here at JWFAN with some extra additions. Please let me know about further additions, if you know. Thanks!:

1956:

Carousel (arr.)

South Pacific (piano)

1957:

Funny Face (piano)

Sweet Smell of Success (piano)

1958:

Porgy and Bess (piano)

Peter Gunn (piano)

Bell, Book and Candle (piano)

God's Little Acre (piano)

The Big Country (piano)

1959:

Twilight Zone (piano)

Staccato (piano)

Some Like it Hot (piano)

City of Fear (piano)

Mr. Lucky (piano)

1960:

The Magnificen Seven (piano)

Studs Lonigan (piano)

The Apartment (piano)

1961:

Hemingway's Adventure of a Young Man (piano)

To Kill a Mockingbird (piano)

The Guns of Navarone (piano and arr.)

Breakfast at Tiffany's (piano)

West Side Story (piano)

1963:

Charade (piano)

1964:

The Pink Panther (piano)

My Fair Lady (arr.)

1965:

The Great Race (piano)

[Incanus 5,890]

Fantastic work Thor! Much appreciated!

[Thor 9,362]

No problem. I feel there are still several titles missing. Didn't he play with Herrmann at some point? And wasn't there more Waxman?

An interesting thing about the list as it is, is that he only worked on four films in 1956 and 1957 combined. I guess that explains why he did so many jazz albums in those years -- both as pianist and arranger. He was getting far more gigs there than in the film industry.

[Maurizio 6,913]

The list is probably much longer, especially for his session piano playing. He was contracted at Columbia Pictures orchestra (under Music Director Moriss Stoloff) back in the mid-late 1950s, then he went on freelancing for many studios after that. He played with Herrmann (and Goldsmith and Waxman as well) for The Twilight Zone tv series.

He played also on the film version of West Side Story (his last gig as studio pianist, as he said in the USC Thornton School 2005 interview).

[Miguel Andrade 1,727]

Williams played for the first episode of The Twilight Zone, scored by Herrmann. Can't remember the episode title right now..

Another thing... the My Fair Lady reference -- is that the film, or may it be referring to Williams arrangements to Shelly Manne. Forgive me if this is an idiotic question, but I'm not at home and can't double check my archives. But the Manne LP dates from 1964 too

[Thor 9,362]

Thanks, I've added WEST SIDE STORY.

Ah yes....I forgot that Herrmann did TWILIGHT ZONE. That's the Herrmann connection there.

Good question about MY FAIR LADY. Maybe it was just the Manne album and not the actual film?