Very sad news

[Maurizio 6,913]

Global financial crisis hits the world of arts, in a very bad way:

http://www.ilritaglio.it/2013/articles-in-english/to-the-dignity-of-the-greek-musicians/

Atrocious time we live in.

[Incanus 5,890]

This is sadly what is happening to arts and arts funding all around the world. Greece is I would say an extreme example as their financial crisis is so deep and catastrophic. When public healthcare, employment and basic wellfare of the people and country is at stake art is usually dropped to the sidelines. But this is extremely saddening news none the less.

[filmmusic 3,269]

Oh, thanks Maurizio that you started this thread.

This is the national orchestra of ERT (national greek television and radio).

Anyway, besides that, the whole ERT organisation closed a few days ago. That includes:

-National television with 5 channels (the television was dedicated to quality movies, cultural shows and documentaries that aren't elsewhere)

-national radio (including a station which was dedicated to classical music - the only one in the country)

-more than a dozen radio stations around the country

-the ΕRΤ national orchestra

-The ERT choir

-The orchestra of contemporary music

-a national TV-radio magazine

and all these, from what i understood, closed in a night without any warning whatsoever, by the government!

The situation here in Greece is boiling..

They supposedly closed this whole organisation because of corruption etc., and they will supposedly open a new one in a few months..

I myself grew up with ERT as all Greeks did (we didn't have any other channels until 1989), and my father worked in the ERT radio (he has retired some years ago).

[A24 5,155]

It feels like a dystopian science fiction film!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

Blade Runner is upon us Alex!

Or is it Logan's Run?

[A24 5,155]

Maybe Vangelis can save the country!

Mmm mmm mm m mmm mm mmm m m

Mmm mm mm m mm m mmm

Mmm mm mm m mmm mm mmm m m

Mm mm mmm mm mm mmmmm

Do you know the song?

Alex

[chuck 155]

Blade Runner is upon us Alex!

Or is it Logan's Run?

Battlefield Earth?

[Ludwig 1,180]

Maybe Vangelis can save the country!

Mmm mmm mm m mmm mm mmm m m

Mmm mm mm m mm m mmm

Mmm mm mm m mmm mm mmm m m

Mm mm mmm mm mm mmmmm

Do you know the song?

Alex

http://youtu.be/PSoVWRVVP8A

[A24 5,155]

Very good!

[Uni 307]

Soylent Green. What happened to all those artists, after all. . . ?

- Uni

[Genius_Gone_Insane 5]

Thank you for posting this.

It seems like every day we as a planet are getting closer to collapse. At what point do you and I try to save it?

[Jill Sandwich 11,164]

She'll be right, mate.

[Quintus 6,494]

Cheers for making me think someone VERY important had died.

[filmmusic 3,269]

Cheers for making me think someone VERY important had died.

Well, democracy has died. Isn't that a bit of important?

[Wycket 36]

Democracy hasn't died, the world just has bigger problems than funding musicians right now to play music.

[Uni 307]

Folks . . . let's get some perspective here. Economic times are horrendously bad right now. Much of it (particularly in the region this deals with) is the consequences of poor decision-making coming home to roost. It's a sad and unfortunate development, to be sure . . . but there are other consequences to be mindful of. People are going hungry because they can't find work. There isn't much hope on the horizon for them. Losing a symphony is a tragic thing, but so is thousands of people losing their livelihood. Many of the people who're still fortunate enough to remain employed couldn't afford to go see the symphony if it were still around anyway.

Life is hard, and it's about prioritizing. I hate to see something like this happen, but do I rank it a deeper loss than so much else happening right now? I can't say that I do. A lot has to change here. Things need to get back on track in a big way in a lot of other areas before they can worry about getting musicians and actors back on stage again. (Here's hoping they do.)

But for the sake of all that's holy, we are not standing on the verge of the death of democracy or (for heaven's sake) planetary collapse because one country can't support an arts budget like they used to. Let's keep our eye on the ball here, people.

- Uni

[filmmusic 3,269]

As, i said above, it was not just an orchestra, it was a whole organization of national TV and radio (including the orchestras) which provided with quality and culture to people who either don't have the luxury to have an internet, or live in isolated parts of the country.

The whole decision was made in an evening without any warning.

I understand what you're saying, but I hope you feel the same when your people and your culture won't have a voice through your television and your radio, and the only thing you will be able to hear is Lady Gaga on the radio, and watch reality shows, blockbusters and lifestyle shows on TV.

(I knew a thread like this would have some responses like that, that's why I didn't start it in the first place. Anyway...)

[Quintus 6,494]

Cheers for making me think someone VERY important had died.

Well, democracy has died. Isn't that a bit of important?

Not sure if you're quoting Star Wars prequels here.

Cheers for making me think someone VERY important had died.

Well, democracy has died. Isn't that a bit of important?

Nah, not to be insensitive, but this is merely a first world 'tragedy'.

Meanwhile in Syria...

[hornist 1,261]

Edit: Not a right place to reveal your personal taste of some music.

Just terrible news. It makes me feel so sad.

[Maurizio 6,913]

Life is hard, and it's about prioritizing. I hate to see something like this happen, but do I rank it a deeper loss than so much else happening right now? I can't say that I do. A lot has to change here. Things need to get back on track in a big way in a lot of other areas before they can worry about getting musicians and actors back on stage again. (Here's hoping they do.)

But for the sake of all that's holy, we are not standing on the verge of the death of democracy or (for heaven's sake) planetary collapse because one country can't support an arts budget like they used to. Let's keep our eye on the ball here, people.

I always raise an eyebrow (or even both) when I read or hear these kind of commentary about these things. What lies beneath them is somehow the idea that all that pertain to arts & culture is just leisure for prosperous times, instead of putting it at the forefront of the economy of a modern country's development plans. I remember the Minister of Economy during the last Berlusconi's government here in Italy that, explaining the umpteenth cutback to arts spending, said to journalists (literally) "Well, go ahead and try to make a sandwich with Dante's Divine Comedy!", as to say that it's more important to get food before having the luxury (?) to read a book.

As filmmusic said above, cutting back to arts and culture means letting more space to junk entertainment. It's not a matter of having actors dancing and playing on the scene and symphony orchestras playing a Mozart ditty for the enjoyment of rich old people. It's about saving the circulation and diffusion of some of the greatest achievements of Western countries. Something that it's food for the mind, not for the stomach. Something that still speaks to us and can make us live way better.

Sure, when people lose jobs and face enormous financial problems, everything goes down to mere survival and that's tough. Every person with a sane mind would agree that food, shelter, health and job are primary things we need to have a decent life. So it's obvious that a country's economic plans - especially during time of financial crisis - must deal with problems related to job, healthcare, school and overall welfare before anything else first and foremost. But we have to be careful about considering everything related to arts & culture as something that must be sacrificed on the altar of the economic recovery. That's what scares me nowadays.

[Wycket 36]

Greece is in financial ruin. The government needs to prioritize. People managed to survive without state-funded arts programs in the past, and they'll do so again.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,110]

Prioritize? Nonsense. Cuts to arts funding are almost always driven by convenience.

If the arts budget was 10...15...20..30% of the Greek budget and it got slashed in half or something, I would be completely OK with such prioritizing.

But it's not. In no country on this planet does public arts funding even *approach* any meaningful proportion of government expenditures.

In the case of Greece, when your annual expenses are $140 billion, and you are cutting $10-15 million, you have to stop and ask yourself, is that cut worth it? Or are the benefits of having public arts funding far more valuable than shaving 0.01% of your total expenses off? It would be like not buying a $0.25 pencil for your child to shave 0.01% off your $2,500 monthly household expenditures.

No one is doing an analysis on the value of that cut. Things this small get cut for no reason other than they are convenient and easy for politicians to slash with comparatively little backlash. But the damage is huge.

As Steve Jobs (who took his employees out on trips to [publicly funded] museums and symphonies to inspire them in their engineering efforts) said, in a quote that highlights the importance of the arts to other industries, including engineering and technology which drive a lot of modern economies:

"I mean Picasso had a saying he said good artists copy great artists steal. And we have always been shameless about stealing great ideas and I think part of what made the Macintosh great was that the people working on it were musicians and poets and artists and zoologists and historians who also happened to be the best computer scientists in the world."

[Uni 307]

I understand what you're saying, but I hope you feel the same when your people and your culture won't have a voice through your television and your radio, and the only thing you will be able to hear is Lady Gaga on the radio, and watch reality shows, blockbusters and lifestyle shows on TV.

Hell, most days it feels like we're already there (especially on the Lady Gaga thing. . . .)

I always raise an eyebrow (or even both) when I read or hear these kind of commentary about these things. What lies beneath them is somehow the idea that all that pertain to arts & culture is just leisure for prosperous times, instead of putting it at the forefront of the economy of a modern country's development plans.

I said nothing of the sort. I don't believe arts and culture are only for prosperous times, and certainly not only for prosperous people.

I remember the Minister of Economy during the last Berlusconi's government here in Italy that, explaining the umpteenth cutback to arts spending, said to journalists (literally) "Well, go ahead and try to make a sandwich with Dante's Divine Comedy!", as to say that it's more important to get food before having the luxury (?) to read a book.

Umm . . . I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it is, in fact, more important to get food than to read a book. Given a choice between eating and having a complete set of the Harry Potter novels, I'm thinkin' you'll find most people will go with the former over the latter.

But we have to be careful about considering everything related to arts & culture as something that must be sacrificed on the altar of the economic recovery. That's what scares me nowadays.

It's not always necessary . . . but sometimes it is. The same thing happens in a family that's living on a tighter budget. If they're struggling to put groceries on the table, they may not have the extra cash to go see as many movies or attend all the plays they'd like to see. Cuts have to be made somewhere. (And likewise, if there's less being spent by the public on the arts, there's less money for the arts to use, right?) It's just the reality of it.

Prioritize? Nonsense. Cuts to arts funding are almost always driven by convenience.

Not always. I'd go so far as to say that more often they're driven by politics. Governments could make these kinds of cuts according to what's most necessary, but I've found they'll usually do it according to what sort of impression they want to make on the people. Over here on this side of the pond, our government, faced with a similar decision, chose to eliminate tours of the White House—as if that's what's ailing the country right now. They didn't do it out of a strong sense of wise stewardship. They wanted to make a point. Send a message. Often times that's what's behind a decision to cut something like the arts (that, and a certain exertion of control).

Whatever the case is, however, let me make myself clear again, people: I am not saying I wholeheartedly agree with the decision that was made here. I am not saying it was a good thing. And I am absolutely not anti-arts. I was simply voicing a perspective the level of hyperbole being expressed about it.

- Uni

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

Art and culture, as important as it is, is NOT as important as food, a roof over your head, a secure job or decent healthcare.

[Brónach 1,330]

I am not as bothered by this as I am by cuts on science and research. Which are both a part of culture and linked to food, healthcare, and jobs. Next one who says culture is not as important as that get a boooh from me!

As for these cuts on music and so on, they're kind of pointless.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,110]

It's not always necessary . . . but sometimes it is. The same thing happens in a family that's living on a tighter budget. If they're struggling to put groceries on the table, they may not have the extra cash to go see as many movies or attend all the plays they'd like to see. Cuts have to be made somewhere. (And likewise, if there's less being spent by the public on the arts, there's less money for the arts to use, right?) It's just the reality of it.

That's not an analogous scenario, because the proportions in spending don't scale properly.

Public arts funding is like a family that has total monthly expenditures of $2,500. They pay $0.25 a month to see a movie, visit a symphony, go to a museum, get a book, and see a play. $0.25. 25 cents. A quarter.

If you believe sacrificing everything you get above for 25 cents to help you cut your monthly family expenditures down to $1,200, you should consider some economics courses. Or recall that old adage "penny wise, pound foolish."

[indy4 160]

Prioritize? Nonsense. Cuts to arts funding are almost always driven by convenience.

If the arts budget was 10...15...20..30% of the Greek budget and it got slashed in half or something, I would be completely OK with such prioritizing.

But it's not. In no country on this planet does public arts funding even *approach* any meaningful proportion of government expenditures.

In the case of Greece, when your annual expenses are $140 billion, and you are cutting $10-15 million, you have to stop and ask yourself, is that cut worth it? Or are the benefits of having public arts funding far more valuable than shaving 0.01% of your total expenses off? It would be like not buying a $0.25 pencil for your child to shave 0.01% off your $2,500 monthly household expenditures.

No one is doing an analysis on the value of that cut. Things this small get cut for no reason other than they are convenient and easy for politicians to slash with comparatively little backlash. But the damage is huge.

As Steve Jobs (who took his employees out on trips to [publicly funded] museums and symphonies to inspire them in their engineering efforts) said, in a quote that highlights the importance of the arts to other industries, including engineering and technology which drive a lot of modern economies:

"I mean Picasso had a saying he said good artists copy great artists steal. And we have always been shameless about stealing great ideas and I think part of what made the Macintosh great was that the people working on it were musicians and poets and artists and zoologists and historians who also happened to be the best computer scientists in the world."

That's true in America, where we can borrow the money and pay it back later. But for Greece, lenders are wary of loaning them more money, which means they can't spend money on every valuable program--they literally may have to chose between $15 million for welfare/economic stimulus or for these cultural programs. A quarter may not mean a lot for buying a family trying to buy food, but $15 million could literally save hundreds of thousands of lives in Greece.

The lenders also want to see some concrete debt reduction, so while your argument about the arts contributing to economically valuable companies like Apple may be true, it's not quantifiable nor immediate, so it's not going to prompt lenders to lend more money.

I say this all as a liberal Democrat who is all for PBS and NPR, and whose life has been fundamentally changed (for the better) by music. It's just different for a super power than for a country like Greece.

Of course, that doesn't mean it's not incredibly sad.

[Ren 77]

Sigh this topic makes me sick. Cutting funding for arts is so backwards. Innovative thinking comes from artistic problem solving. When we have to work from bare bones for survival no creativity comes out. No forward thinking. Then you get no where and the cycle continues

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

Its not very imaginative to cut on things like culture, healthcare, education.

[Quintus 6,494]

They're going about it all wrong. They should make widespread cuts to healthcare and education and ring fence the arts. The national orchestra should be protected at all costs and if that means classrooms should be chronically over crowded and hospital waiting times quadrupled then so be it. This is the people's heritage at stake!

[Ollie 1,375]

It's depressing but not the end of the world.

[Naïve Old Fart 13,020]

If, as I have heard, 2% of the population owns 98% of the World's wealth, then why are they not making 98% of the effort to save thing like this?

There is no financial crisis. It is a created senario to allow successive greedy, and perverted governments to bring in whatever social and political changes that they want to. It's the biggest joke in history...but nobody is laughing.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

We need a redistribution of wealth!

[Uni 307]

We're headed for territory here. . . .

- Uni

[Naïve Old Fart 13,020]

Yes, I know, and I'm sorry, Uni. It's just that I feel so damned passionate about this whole charade. The wool is being pulled over the people of the World's eyes, and I get so angry!!

Censure me, if you wish; I probably deserve it, but "People gotta know. Fascisim is commin' back!" *

* Quoted from the film "JFK".

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

Fascism was never gone

[BloodBoal 8,711]

[Brónach 1,330]

Speak for yourself.

[BloodBoal 8,711]

[Brónach 1,330]

You speak in Royal We now?

[BloodBoal 8,711]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

We are not amused!

[BloodBoal 8,711]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

Check my avatar!

[BloodBoal 8,711]

[A24 5,155]

We need a redistribution of wealth!

I'd say let's go back to the cave and start trading again!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,383]

As long as I have the monopoly on all the flint!

But you look amused in your avatar pic!

We are easily pleased these days!

[Brónach 1,330]

Yep. That's classy, isn't it?

I'm not much of a royalist...