26 replies to this topic

[Edag88]

This is only with people who have a good sence of humor....

Today, during orchestra, we were going to compose a piece as an orchestra to play in the concert, our conductor went through the list of things we cannot do while writing and one of the things he said was "We cannot copy things from other songs or tunes, we are not John Williams" I actually think he said that to me knowing i would be the only one who would get it.....

Just a strange little JW reference at school, meanwhile, the band was playing the "Harry Potter Symphonic Suite" which is surely one of the most examples of what my orchestra teacher said....

[Morlock]

I don't think it's funny. You will of course kill him immediatly.

[Hector J. Guzman]

He meant James Horner

[QuestionMarkMan]

My instructor also makes jives at Williams knowing full well how fond of him I am

[Hector J. Guzman]

I have to confess that once in harmony class (Or whatever it's called in english) he had to develop a theme, and I cheated and used Williams' JFK theme

[Donnelly24]

I also hear those kind of jokes from very well educated people in music. In my opinion, the reason those jokes or comments come out are probably because they dont know enough of Williams. O well...

- Sean - Who thinks Williams would have even more respect if he started writing more music for the concert hall

[Ray Barnsbury]

My college band director made a similar remoark several weeks ago. He was talking about some composer and how good he was at scoring for the different instruments in the band, and he said "You all know who John Williams is, right? Well, everything he writes is stolen, everything is stolen. But man can he score. If I could score like him I'd be sitting with my feet up like he is now, drinking martinis." It pissed me off, besides the obvious lack of knowledge in order to make such a claim, since we all know that JW keeps a very rigorous schedule and does not merely relax and sip on martinis.

Ray Barnsbury

[Morlock]

To Quote James, Lars and Kirk- 'Kill 'em all'

[Hlao-roo]

Note that these folks rarely give specific examples of what was "stolen" from what.

[Lurker]

I would be a smart ass (surprise, surprise) and point out that James Horner has made a career out of being Prokofiev Jr. and I'd ask for specific examples and generally create some reasonable doubt that this person really shouldn't make sweeping generalities like that without hard evidence to back it up. It's a very foolish and irresponsible thing to say as well. Essentially he's saying that Williams is lazy and a hack, which is clearly not the case. Williams is, and I hate to use this word, a genious. Plain and simple. It's not like he came up with one piece of music that will be remebered for all time (like Dukas). He's written more memorable pieces of music in the last 40 years than anyone else, I'd venture to say. This sort of thing isn't luck. I don't think he was in the right place at the right time. He is gifted. It sounds like your music teacher is probably a little jealous of Williams's success.

Also point out (if it's true) that you became interested in music because of Williams' work and you don't appreciate him bad mouthing it.

Neil - tired of those who can't back up there claims!

[Simon R.]

So tell us, where is Harry Potter stolen from? Mp3 example too, please.

[Edag88]

See, I don't think my music teacher ment it in an insulting way. He ment it in more of a way of how we joke and everything. He didn't mean that "that John Williams guy is a dirty stinkin' thief." He ment it joking because he is rather knowledgeable about these kind of things and would know a long running joke like that. Don't you remember the John Williams sues himself article and how one part from Across the Stars is just like one part in Catch me if You can. Also the Hook and Harry Potter similarities. He was just making an innocent joke. I bet you even knowing my music teacher that he's probably listened to most if not all of JW's work.

[Morlock]

Everyone steals in film music. I just think it's wrong to single out JW, who certainly does it far less than Horner or Zimmer, and IMO also less than Elfman, Goldsmith, Herrmann, Steiner and Korngold.

[Simon R.]

Hook and Harry Potter are certainly not much alike. 4 notes - is that really all it takes?

[HPFAN_2]

Stop your worries i have sent forth the assassins and i shall have his head in a matter of hours. Hold your thanks.

[David Coscina]

You know it's a back handed compliment in a way. John Williams is so popular that college professors and teachers make jokes about him. James Horner or Hans Zimmer should be so lucky. Also, look where it's coming from. Most of these educators may know a lot about music (Although I had classmates in university who were planning on becoming teachers who had ears like goats!) but know very little about film scoring. It's a new art and these people haven't been edified.

I think it's small-mindedness on a person's behalf when they say eg. "Williams ripped off Straus' Death and Transfiguration for his Superman Love Theme". Yes, there are melodic similarities. The first five notes (tonic, maj 3rd, 5th, 10th, and 9th) occur in the same order. But Williams goes off in a totally different direction afterwards. Other than the 9th, this is a basic arpeggiation. Like I said, just because they are an educator, doesn't mean they know what they're talking about all of the time.

Horner on the other hand lifts complete sections of music from Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet as well as The Philosopher's mvmnt. from his Cantata on the 40th Anniversary of the 1917 Revolution. All of the instrumentation and dynamics, heck even the text for Christ's sake, are the same. But the closest Williams ever came to outright plagiarism was The Little People music from Star Wars where he copied a section of Stravinsky's RITE OF SPRING from the woodwinds to the bassoon solo. It's pretty obvious actually but I can't really pick on him for that.

In most cases, Williams evokes music from the past. I love his "Hooknapped" music even though Korngold wrote a similar ascending/descending low string figure on one of his cues for SEA HAWK decades earlier. But using a string figure from a master like Korngold in a film that also has pirates to me is a homage rather than a lift. There is a little context there. Horner will rip off Prokofiev for a movie that has nothing to do with Russians (like STAR TREK 3).

I could actually write an article about this so I think I'll just stop right here.

[Morlock]

BTW, while we're touching the subject- Williams does indeed evoke Korngold in Hook (including one all out homage), which is exactly what Zimmer does in Gladiator. I'm tired of reading how Zimmer blatantly stole part of Holst's Mars.
The piece fit in perfectly, and being that it's depicting Romans at war, music evoking the Roman god of war is fitting.

[David Coscina]

Actually, Zimmer's lift of The Planets never bothered me, maybe because it was used in a suitable context. I didn't like his lifting of "Romance" from Lt. Kije though because it distracted me away from the film. Also didn't care for his use of Wagner's RING music more because once I heard the quote I was trying to figure out where I'd heard it before.

But seriously, I don't really have much against Zimmer's GLADIATOR. It served the film reasonably well. I don't think it was fair for people to compare that to NOrth's Spartacus. Different time of filmmaking. And North is a god in the film scoring community. I wouldn't even compare Williams to him and Johnny's my favorite composer of all time!

[Mr. Breathmask]

I know this started out as a thread about a harmless joke, but sometimes people's ignorance is so plainly obvious through their remarks. Last year, when I just got the TTT CD a few weeks before the film opened, I let one of my classmates listen to a bit of it. After only a few seconds of track 2 he said: "This is exactly the same as the first one." What he obviously was unaware of, was that the music that opens the track, is a theme, a leitmotiv, that runs through all three scores, and represents something (in this case of course, it was the Shire theme). Also, when my classmates once asked me what music I was listening to on my DiscMan, I replied that I was listening to the soundtrack of Jurassic Park. They laughed and asked me why I was listening to roaring dinosaurs...
Another remark I've heard about scores like SW or TESB, is that Williams "plays the same over and over again". Again, they forget that these works are thematic, and that these themes represent something. Not to mention that tempo and orchestration often vary.

- Marc, who gets annoyed by such ignorance.

[David Coscina]

Marc, don't be frustrated with the general public's listening tastes. After all, look at what's making the charts in pop music these days. That's testimony enough to the fact that 70% of the population are tone deaf.

I'm more worried when a Linkin park or Brittany Spears fan LIKES a John Williams piece.

[Hector J. Guzman]

Why would you get worried by something like that?

[Donnelly24]

I am a huge music fan...I'll listen to it all. Here I am on this message board, a John Williams fan, when I HAVE the Linkin Park cd. I believe I listen to classical music because as a musican, I apreciate the talent that these people have that rock stars dont always have. There is a time to listen to Linkin Park, Metallica, ACDC, etc...and there is a time to listen to John Williams. I think it is important to have a mixed varity in music taste.

Sean - Who can go from John Williams to Metallica and back very quickly (as odd as that may be...)

[David Coscina]

Yeah I shouldn't have listed LinkinPark. I also like some of their stuff.

I was just trying to illustrate that it's not worth getting flustered when someone makes a disparaging remark about Williams or his music. They know not what they speak.

[Hector J. Guzman]

I am a huge music fan...I'll listen to it all.  Here I am on this message board, a John Williams fan, when I HAVE the Linkin Park cd.   I believe I listen to classical music because as a musican, I apreciate the talent that these people have that rock stars dont always have.  There is a time to listen to Linkin Park, Metallica, ACDC, etc...and there is a time to listen to John Williams.  I think it is important to have a mixed varity in music taste.

Sean - Who can go from John Williams to Metallica and back very quickly (as odd as that may be...)

But you didn't say why it worried you "when a Linkin park or Brittany Spears fan LIKES a John Williams piece".

[Edag88]

Yea, see, i think it was an educated joke, because my music teacher knows QUITE a bit about music. It's rather impressive. This is much different than the band teacher who is a total prick, can't keep a steady beat for his life, can't even talk right, or make music sound good. I love orchestra (which is obviously the good class) and the things we do and discuss aren't insulting. He does know what he is talking about though, i can assure you. And just for the record, HE WASN'T INSULTING HIM by his opinon, it was a JOKE!