10 replies to this topic

[Edag88]

*This isn't completely music related but a mix of social and music so I decided to post it here*

Alright so I've been gone from these message boards for awhile now and just recently came back when the music of ROTS started getting recorded and I decided to check back at the good ol' boards. I wanted to talk about why I left originally and what your thoughts on it are...

So back when I did still post here I started getting more into different types of classical music like Stravinsky, Mozart, and Liszt. Then I looked back at the old JW music I listened to. One thing I notced really really bothered me. JW's much sounded quite a bit similar to all of the music written by real classical composers and it just seemed like JW's music had less of an impact on me after that. I talked to my music theory teacher about that awhile back and he's a very conservative musician, one of those "movie scores and game music are just background noise" and started talking about how John Williams is a fake and how he just copies things from real composers. This really bothered me because it was The Phantom Menace that got me into classical music way back when I was in 6th grade. I started listening to both types of music again and started to believe it so after that there were no JW CD's in my CD player after that.

After that I started getting into game music. I shared some of that with the same teacher and he gave the same response. Then I started thinking. Game music stands out alot and started really looking into what movie music's purpose is and watched movies without the music and many other things. I started disagreeing with that his opinions were.

I decided that I'd give some more movie music a chance again and it seemed to work pretty well. It's great stuff. Even though I believe that there isn't too much amazing movie music these days the things that are great are just that. Great. It was the fact that the first composer I listened to was kinda shot out of the sky by an experienced musician that was what really got me down. Now I've taken on a much more liberal listening of music and decided that movie and game music is just as big and important as music written just to be written. I am now happy to say I will try to post here much more.

What are your thoughts on what I experienced? I want to hear what fellow musicians think of that whole issue. Replies are appriciated.

[Melange]

I think there was a thread similar to this on General Discussion. Someone was asking about which bits of JW that they thought were similar to existing Classical pieces. But anyway. My advice to you? (if you want it) is....Dont listen to what so called "experts" tell you. You may be relying on his words because he's in a position of power. But everyone realizes eventually that those in power are often dimwits who dont really know what they're talking about. Sometimes they have valid points. But the best thing is always to rely on your feelings as the authority on anything in your life.

If you yourself enjoy JW music, then that's all that matters isn't it?. Even if someone else dismisses what you love. Should that change your feeling about it? Certainly should not. Personally, i know there is a lot more to film score composition than "background noise". I think anybody with a musical ear can realize that. If you love Jw's music, it shows that you perhaps know more of the real "feeling" behind music, than the scholarly music intellectuals know. They can disect every bit of a score. But can they "Feel" it?

[OrchDork]

I completely agree with Melange.

[Alexcremers]

So back when I did still post here I started getting more into different types of classical music like Stravinsky, Mozart, and Liszt.  Then I looked back at the old JW music I listened to.  One thing I notced really really bothered me.  JW's much sounded quite a bit similar to all of the music written by real classical composers and it just seemed like JW's music had less of an impact on me after that.  

Tell me of which classical composer JW has copied JFK from?

Tell me of which classical composer JW has copied Presumed Innocent from?

Tell me of which classical composer JW has copied the famous 5 note riff of CE3K from?

Tell me ...

----------------
Alex Cremers

[MrScratch]

I'd like to know where JW stole "The Asteroid Field" from... I've never heard an orchestral piece like that before 1980.

I hear a lot of classical influences in JWs scores. But I hear a lot more that doesn't seem to have a direct classical influence either.

Jeff

[krosstj]

Are you ready for this......

There are 12 notes in western music, can we agree on that?
There are 15 Major scales, 15 Natural Minor Scales, 15 Harmonic Minor Scales, 15 Melodic Minor Scales. Can we agree on that?
There are Modes...Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian. Can we agree on that?
Obviously there are 15 Major keys and 15 Minor keys. Can we agree on that?
There is a whole note, half note, Quarter note, Eighth note and sixteenth note (we can break this down even more but I'll spare you LOL). Can we agree on this?
Ok, enought with the vanity Kross, the point is this..there is over a thousands years of music. Some whre in our minds we store what we hear. Its "human Nature" . JW is so well versed in all types and forms of music that "DUH" obviously his composing will be influenced. I challenge everyone on this board to find a composer (MODERN) and look through his lifes work, and I promise you, that you will find many, MANY similairities to other writers. JW does not steal. I doubt JW said...."HMM I'm doing Jurasic park, A movie that will be seen/heard by millions of people. Let me look up Motzarts Concerto from BLAH BLAH BLAH. Now let me change that key, make it a Major chord and YIPPIE I'm RICH! Nah, the bottom line is we are all influenced by things, by music. There are only so many original things we can write with music. SOmeday, somehow its all bound to have similiar "Theory" behind it.

UHG, sorry that was a rant.

PS I'm sure there are huge spelling errors, NO glasses and I'm typing fast at work LOL:) OH, and I can't spell anyway. How did I make it in college, oh yea, Girlfriends.

[Edag88]

Yea, I completely agree with that last post. One thing that really put me over was that website comparing Wagner's The Ring and Star Wars because if you look at the music part it's almost identical...

[Frosty]

I agree as well.

I would love to go head to head with this music "teacher" and deflate his ego a bit.

You listen to early Stravinvky i.e Scherzo Fantasique, Petrushka, Firebird and you try to distinguish these pieces from Rimsky-Kosakov. There wasn't an original tune in any of those pieces either. Stravinsky needed those pieces to do Rite of Spring and subsequent pieces.

Movie music is an extension of opera. You doubt me but listen to all the overtures, ceremonial music, marches, etc. that have been part of the standard repetoire that come from operas. I still think that the "Imperial March" is one of the greatest symphonic marches EVER written. If it was written in the 19th century, it would be a staple of the repetoire.

You name me one composer that DOESN'T sound like some else.

A lot of academics are just that: academics. I have found in my experience that academics only write music for a few hundred people at a time and consider themselves the preservers of the faith. Their music has reached the level of novelty (with some notable exceptions). They are cynical about pieces that have become "Popular", yet believe they are doing music a favor by not being popular. I will go off on a lot of "20th century" or "atonal/serial" composers because they are clinging to a form of music that has lasted the shortest time in music history. Their time in music history has barely lasted 70 years, yet they insist that their music is still alive and well. It is not. It is novelty. How many different sounds can you create with the most contrasting orchestration? It is not creativity, it is novelty!!!

The "standard" repetoire as we know it today is probably the top 10% of the total music written in the last 300 years. It was all "popular" music. Follow your ear. If it sounds like some else, big deal. Someone asked Howard Hanson what he thought the next new music would be and he responded, "If I knew that, I would be writting it." If you follow the pattern in music history as to what is popular, you find it gravitating back to music that sounds good and gives an emotional reaction. Intellectual music is just that, but you don't hear people whistling Elliot Carter or Pierre Boulez (who are great composers). Listen to their music, enjoy their music and internalize it so it become an expression of your music.

'nuff saud.


Frosty

[pixie_twinkle]

Tell me of which classical composer JW has copied JFK from?

Samuel Barber



I agree with most of what's been said above. Here's what I think. It's very hard to find people who are completely impartial in their feelings on this matter. Most classical music buffs dismiss film-scores as not being "real music" (whatever the hell THAT means), and likewise many film score buffs refuse to accept that classical music had any influence whatsoever on film composers. Both opinions are shortsighted and very blinkered. People who like their comfortable world and take comfort in the self-imposed boundaries of their musical experience.

I enjoy classical music very much. I certainly wouldn't call myself a fan of most modern film music, in fact I think the great art of orchestral film-scoring has really taken a nose-dive over the last 15/20 years with a few notable exceptions. And yet I really enjoy the music of John Williams, Bernard Herrman, Erich Korngold, John Barry and many others. I pride myself that I have good taste and I certainly think that any music that appeals to me is worthy of that appeal. Good music should always be celebrated and listened to, regardless of who composed it, or for what reason it was written. Mozart only wrote his comic operas to make a quick buck. Does that mean they are crap? Of course not! John Williams writes film scores as his job, and I think his music is incredibly potent and valid.

We can hear influences (and sometimes more!) from other composers in John Williams scores, but that is the case with most (all?) composers. As I mentioned on another thread, Mahler 3 has huge sections lifted straight out of Bahms (the opening of movement 1) and Beethoven (the opening of movement 6). Does it make it any less of a great piece? No! Likewise with Williams. His music may not always be 100% original, but it is usually 100% well-written and exciting/rewarding to listen to. Ignore the people who say film music is best, or classical music is best. Good music is the best, wherever it is found.

[pixie_twinkle]

I agree as well.

I would love to go head to head with this music "teacher" and deflate his ego a bit.

You listen to early Stravinvky i.e Scherzo Fantasique, Petrushka, Firebird and you try to distinguish these pieces from Rimsky-Kosakov. There wasn't an original tune in any of those pieces either. Stravinsky needed those pieces to do Rite of Spring and subsequent pieces.

Movie music is an extension of opera. You doubt me but listen to all the overtures, ceremonial music, marches, etc. that have been part of the standard repetoire that come from operas. I still think that the "Imperial March" is one of the greatest symphonic marches EVER written. If it was written in the 19th century, it would be a staple of the repetoire.

You name me one composer that DOESN'T sound like some else.

A lot of academics are just that: academics. I have found in my experience that academics only write music for a few hundred people at a time and consider themselves the preservers of the faith. Their music has reached the level of novelty (with some notable exceptions). They are cynical about pieces that have become "Popular", yet believe they are doing music a favor by not being popular. I will go off on a lot of "20th century" or "atonal/serial" composers because they are clinging to a form of music that has lasted the shortest time  in music history. Their time in music history has barely lasted 70 years, yet they insist that their music is still alive and well. It is not. It is novelty. How many different sounds can you create with the most contrasting orchestration? It is not creativity, it is novelty!!!

The "standard" repetoire as we know it today is probably the top 10% of the total music written in the last 300 years. It was all "popular" music. Follow your ear. If it sounds like some else, big deal. Someone asked Howard Hanson what he thought the next new music would be and he responded, "If I knew that, I would be writting it." If you follow the pattern in music history as to what is popular, you find it gravitating back to music that sounds good and gives an emotional reaction. Intellectual music is just that, but you don't hear people whistling Elliot Carter or Pierre Boulez (who are great composers). Listen to their music, enjoy their music and internalize it so it become an expression of your music.

'nuff saud.


Frosty

Frosty, this was an incredibly well-written post! VERY good points. You have summed up the problem with academic music perfectly. Many of these crusty academics don't even acknowledge minimalism or neo-romanticism as being a valid path, even though this is the most popular new music in concert halls these days!!

[Jeshopk]

Yea, I completely agree with that last post. One thing that really put me over was that website comparing Wagner's The Ring and Star Wars because if you look at the music part it's almost identical...

Only as identical as 2 chinese people born of different parents. Meaning not nearly identical. Only "identical" to "others." Lets just say, they share some similar genetic material, yet remaining completely individual.