Leaderboard

Done:

Theft is the highest form of art, engineering, science, math, and every other human endeavor. Theft is how nature itself operates. Our very existence is thanks to DNA plagiarized from two parents. There is no such thing as creativity in the fluffy sense of creating something completely new. That's just accidental discovery and it happens very rarely. And usually that's just unexpected theft. Most of the greatest works of mankind are wonderful ideas absorbed by one person from another and imbued with their individual style and flavor as it is assimilated. It is the exact same process within the mind of a single artist. I never understood what the big deal was, and I hate the "that's theft, but that's style" pick and choosing nonsense. It's all part of the same artistic process. The best thieves and artists are the ultimate curators. They steal the best from the best and hopefully make it better.

That's a very condescending viewpoint. I have a very limited understanding of music theory, but when Horner lifts the Braveheart love theme and uses it note for note somewhere else, that's self plagiarism. No. You misunderstand. I'm not saying that if you have a limited understanding of music theory, you're not qualified to spot self-plagiarism. That would be a very condescending viewpoint. Most people on this board don't have formal music education—myself included! You don't have to have a degree from Juliard to know when two pieces sound the same, or are exactly alike. I'm talking about people who know neither music theory nor film music, to the point that they can't grasp the common use of leitmotif. People who would say that the appearance of Yoda's theme during the Halloween scene in E.T. is an example of self-plagiarism, as though Williams couldn't come up with anything more original on the spot. They miss the point of the technique entirely. (And yes, I've actually met folks like this. One thought the obvious reuse of Darth Vader's theme in Return of the Jedi was entirely due to Williams being incapable of rendering a new theme for the villain . . . as though he should've retired the Imperial March after Empire.) - Uni Ah, ok yes I completely misunderstood you. And yeah, I've read comments from people who didn't understand the idea of themes reused in a franchise. I'd say they simply need to be educated. I'd say they simply need to be executed.

In addition to the other things mentioned already, there are also many people out there in the world of music - typically musical academics - who have an underlying lack of respect for Williams and his colleagues, simply because they are considered film composers. That's not a finger point at musical academics in general (I am one myself), but at a small "faction" who seem to do nothing but criticize anything that is enjoyed by mass audiences. I've had several run-ins with these people throughout my career (especially during degree work), and their argument always seems to stop at just saying "John Williams is such a plagiarist." It doesn't go much further. They may be able to spot a few places where things DO sound similar, or even places where it's obvious that the temp-track was a huge influence on the director's wishes ("Star Wars" bits, "Face of Pan," etc), but it's obvious they are totally ignorant of the enormous amount of music written by the guy over the last 60 years. Play them an excerpt from the Flute Concerto, and they'll have no idea it's Williams. Why? Because they are making a blanket statement without having all the facts necessary for the statement. Also, these people are often just repeating something they've heard someone else say, because they feel it makes them sound educated. They haven't spent time and effort examining Williams' entire oeuvre, they just know a few isolated spots, and in order to make themselves feel important, they criticize someone else's work. It's a lazy way to build your own ego, but musicians are often the worst when it comes to petty trash-talking. The other aspect (mentioned already) is that sometimes these critics are educated enough (whether formally or just because they love music), but they aren't educated enough to know that what they are hearing isn't actual plagiarism, it's musical style. When Bernstein's Mass premiered, it was highly criticized for (among other things) sounding too much like everything else he'd written - especially West Side Story. Now, it's considered a masterpiece, although it still generates controversy for completely different reasons. On the same note, nobody ever criticized Beethoven for sounding like Beethoven, or Mahler for sounding like Mahler. I'm not comparing Williams to any other composer, but the fact is that every composer in history had his/her own bag of compositional "tricks," which they would dip into frequently. This board is FULL of examples of Williams' tricks. Want to see the ones J.S. Bach used? Open any music theory textbook written since 1750. And yeah, Bach sounds like Bach too...the lousy plagiarist!

To my absolute surprise, the CD just arrived. Less than 2 days. Impressive. No hidden bonus tracks, sadly. Karol

The melody perhaps, but they don't sound the same.

Ah, yes. Although he obviously takes the passage in different directions, it starts out nearly identically.

It's a shame Zimmer's scores haven't tried new things with the electronics and blending the orchestra like Daft Punk's Tron Legacy has. I mean, really. I think far less people would complain about Zimmer's work on The Dark Knight and Man of Steel if they were more akin to Tron Legacy quality-wise.

The Adventures of Tin-Tin War Horse Lincoln Fire Water Paper by Elliot Goldenthal Karol