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I'm noticing a strong anti-"noodling" vibe here! First let me explain noodling: I interpret it to mean playing around, experimenting, or trial and error. A generally low-cost/high reward way of finding great ideas and eliminating bad ideas. Some anonymous quotes that demonstrate this strange stance against noodling and hold John Williams above such pedestrian practice: And just a sample of the anti-experimenting mindset: There seems to be a strange belief that great composers don't experiment. That it all comes to their genius brains in some great wave, in final form, and they just write it all down. That music written through trial and error and exploration is somehow inferior to this mythical music seemingly handed down by God. My only explanation for this strange phenomenon is that people here are more likely to have watched "Amadeus" and mistook it for some kind of factual documentary? Because I see this belief crop-up in musical communities more than any other creative or even engineering focused community, where trial and error and iteration are generally held up as the most reliable way to do great work. If you're learning to draw you're taught that you have to get comfortable with constantly using an eraser. When you're shooting a movie you're encouraged to do multiple takes and see what works. When you're engineering a bridge you're encouraged to prototype and test what works best before you build the whole thing. The idea in all cases is that the artist/director/engineer/architect does not miraculously know what will be best; their skill is in recognizing (via experimentation) when something works and when it doesn't. That's very different from knowing what the end results will be before starting. One process involves embracing trial and error. The other shuns it entirely, because you are only working towards a pre-defined end goal. But for some reason there's a strange belief that when it comes to music, "gleich alles zusammen!" For those unfamiliar, it's a quote falsely attributed to Mozart (it's actually from a forged letter), where "Mozart" supposedly explained that all the music came to him all at once. That's bullshit. The fact that he never said it is a testament to that is evidence of that. But if that's not enough, Mozart's remaining library of sketches, revisions and revisions, evidence of his musical experiments, letters describing his need for a piano to write, serve further proof. Mozart was prolific and he worked quickly. He had an incredible memory. But there is no evidence that he did anything other than work hard, recognize when something worked, and iterate, iterate, iterate. Fast forward to today, and a lot of JWFanners seem to be under the spell of this "Gleich Alles Zusammen!" bullshit, even going so far as to claiming that John Williams writes the same way as Mozart didn't! That he would never do something as pedestrian as work hard at getting to the music we know and love! That's why John has expressly forbade a piano in his office, right?! Because everything comes to him all at once, and he doesn't need to sit at a piano and play things and see what works and what doesn't! Right? That's why he wrote hundreds of iterations of the Close Encounters theme, because it came to him all at once! It's why John Williams explains his process as: "I developed from very early on a habit of writing something every day, good or bad. There are good days, and there are less good days, but I do a certain amount of pages it seems to me before I can feel like the day has been completely served. When I am working on a film, of course, its a six-day-a-week affair, and when Im not working on films, I always like to devote myself to some piece, some musical project, that gives me a feeling that Im maybe contributing in some small way or, maybe more importantly, learning in the process." Because he's not some noodler. He doesn't sit at the piano and play around to see how things work. He doesn't write bad music! He never has to figure out what happens next, it all just comes to him: "For me if Im ever blocked or I feel like I dont quite know where to go at the next turn, the best thing for me is to keep writing, to write something. It could be absolute nonsense, but it will project me into the next phase of thinking. And I think if we ourselves as writers get out of the way and let the flow happen and not get uptight about it, so to speak, the muses will carry us along." "The wonderful thing about music is it never seems to be exhausted. Every little idea germinates another one. Things are constantly transforming themselves in musical terms. So that the few notes we have, 7, 8 or 12 notes, can be morphed into endless variations, and it’s never quite over, so I think the idea of a block is something we need to work through." He just takes the final works in his head and writes them down! Yeah...because that's how real life works.

Too bad Horner's themes remind me of melodies of a couple of 1980s Finnish pop songs. Kind of ruins the score for me. Moby Dick by Christopher Gordon: A seafaring tone poem of a score which perfectly captures the tale with beautiful soaring main theme that ebbs and flows like the sea, a grim, religioso and doom-laden repeating melody for obsessive captain Ahab, a woodwind led percussion and native chant coloured theme for the first mate Queequeg to imply his Southsea origin and monstrously aggressive percussion and Elliot Goldenthal-like blaring brass calls for the great whale itself. Highlights abound beginning with the opening Call Me Ishmael, which ushers in the main theme in a formal fashion, the sprightly sea shanty-styled violin in Nantucket Docks, another expansive statement of the main theme in Voyage Begins and There She Blows which inevitably conjures comparison with the great shark chase from Jaws in its busily exuberant piraty mood. Ice paints a restrained portrait of cold atmosphere of simultaneous foreboding and crystalline wonder, At the Helm and St. Elmo's Fire range from dynamically dramatic passages for brass, hinting at the main theme which suddenly soars to a moment of majesty when the upper registers of the orchestra are joined by the choir as Gordon creates a mood of sheer ethereal awe. The finale beginning with Lower the Boats and ending with Orphan of the Sea offers a rousing ending to the tale that goes from heroism and spirited recapitulation of the whale chase music to the ominous and grim final conflict of Ahab and the whale, and the album is rounded out by the last statement of the Moby Dick Theme bringing everything to a thoroughly satisfying conclusion. Christopher Gordon is a rather unsung composer of great talent and this score is one prime example of his skills. Highly recommended.

"I consider my own efforts in film composition to be serious, and I encourage other composers to take the medium seriously."

This is the concert that was shown on Norwegian TV a couple of weeks ago (although it annoyingly omitted the "Soundings" bit). Glad to see it get a proper release. I wish the Boston Pops concerts with JW got this treatment. Imagine a big box of all JW/BP concerts from 1980 to 1993!

It's Sharky before 2012. Karol

There's a learning curve to this place. Some people catch on really fast (ex. TGP), others take more time (ex. well...me). Filmtracks has a good couple of members that I still stay in touch with, and they're far less aggressive than people here or on FSM. Clemmenson doesn't moderate very well though, which leads to some amusing troll posts, but he's a good guy, despite his controversial, sometimes limited insight. I still visit on occaison and make or post or two, but I've fallen out of the habit of regularly posting a long time ago. The discussion is too limp for my tastes. I think it's appeal lies in introducing new people to film music and educating them to the fundamentals and stuff. Though there are veterans that still stick around there like Jon Broxton, Erik Woods, James Southall, etc etc. But by and large, its not where you go for a more mature and broadened perspective, or the finer details of the music itself. I like that JWFan has a good community of musicologists and composers here. Allows for more interesting discussion and growth for me. Combine that with the pub-like social atmosphere, and this place is as close to utopia as film score forums get I suppose. Oh and Filmtracks is also a good place to learn about some of the lesser known composers and scores. Those kind of hidden gems often get overlooked here.

All the C-major BD releases I own are region free.

No but this is good: Karol

Hahaha... I love the wave.

I find it funny that a lot of people are afraid to commit to liking the trailer music because of how nebulous our certainty is of its origins. They don't want to be caught liking something that might not be Williams so they lie in wait with their "get out of jail free" card: Scenario 1: See, I new it was him, terrific music. Long Live Williams! Scenario 2: See, I new it wasn't him, never liked that trailer music, had that fraud stink all over it!

Found an audio recording of the recent "panel discussion" from Star Wars Celebration: http://s52.podbean.com/pb/1a05bf608d870842dd43c30c94cb3b3e/553248de/data2/blogs24/365299/uploads/MusicEmpirePanel.mp3 Direct link: http://s52.podbean.com/pb/1a05bf608d870842dd43c30c94cb3b3e/553248de/data2/blogs24/365299/uploads/MusicEmpirePanel.mp3As a side note, here is the 16-part podcast that Collins refers to, titled "Star Wars Oxygen - The Music of John Williams": http://www.shotglassdigital.com/releases/?a=3554 (two pages) EDIT: Podcast previously mentioned by MrScratch HERE.

That one has a stellar main theme.

I'm watching THE PATRIOT, although I felt I had to take a brake after Benjamin's incredibly violent redcoat massacre. What appealed most to me, so far, are the underscore and the cinematography. I can't say this film has had any incredibly stunning imagery up until now, but there were quite a few beautiful shots (e.g. some of the pastoral shots, the pan to the court building, etc.). I'm especially fond of the filmy look - makes you think about how polished and unnatural most contemporary feature films look. As for the underscore, I think Williams's americana theme is one of the most elegant he has written in his career, and it works wonderfully when accompanying the broad shots of the lush American countryside. What bothers me, is the overly exaggerated dramaticism. Why did Samuel and Nathan have to accompany Benjamin during his raid on the British caravan? I simply can't understand that the character the audience has come to know as a convinced pacifist, a man dreadfully affected by his previous experiences in war, risks the lives of two of his sons in a raid he most likely won't succeed in - which he, of course, eventually does, by some miracle. The war gods seem to be directing quite some good will toward this Benjamin fellow.

Pretty cool, actually, to think that Williams has hit 100 scores any way you look at it.

I've tried getting into FSM many times but the stuffy environment makes everything so damn boring! I'll take JWFan or the Filmtracks scoreboard over it any day!

I think I was aware of FSM and Filmtracks by the time I started posting here, but JWFan was a pretty obvious choice to me. Aside from having a focus on Williams, it's always struck me as more visually appealing, easier to navigate, useful archives, more consistently active, funnier/livelier discussions, more defined personality etc. Preaching to the choir here, and I assume the communities at the other places become clearer over time but I've never found browsing around over there to be that much fun.

I started out in Filmtracks, and then tried out FSM before coming here. Made a total of maybe 5 posts before I gave up. Filmtracks has a nice community, if you can look past the occasional trolls, though the discussion is often pretty superficial. But it was a good place to start for beginner fans. FSM was too haphazard, but I never got to experience much of it anyway. JWFan took some time to get into, but has the most personality I think, which I was satisfied with.

I considered FSM when I decided to join a film music forum. But I soon became aware of where all the options stood when applied to a Dante-inspired scheme of Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell. Naturally I chose the upper gates of Purgatory rather than Hell's seventh circle, or worse, The Pit, that nighted and frozen lair of Clemmensen and the Great Betrayers.

No.

If you're curious to see what this music goes with, your wait will soon be over! On May 9th, the first part of District 24 will be available for viewing on Vimeo. Volume 2 will be released on May 16th.

Yeah. the canvas are ginormous. Karol

Nostalgia? Most people who saw SW in the cinema in 1977 are dead!

This is my only concern too.

Damn, that's crazy that once film music sounded like that. You do hear some Varese in the Straw Dogs: and Copland in the Watership Down (like around 2:00). Basically, I think you are hearing alot of quasi European influences. Copland being French/Stravinsky/Boulanger protege mixed with Americana and Varese being French/American.

I have so many favorites. It is almost easier to find a least favorite. Part of my challenge is the dynamic and structural build is so satisfying. For example, how the ideas in Star Wars emerge but are fully developed in act 3. The payoff in the later cues is because they were so well set up early on. If you choose the later cues, you loose the development over time that is so lacking today but the oldies did so well. With that said, I have to say I need to revisit Return of the Jedi more because in Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back, I adore each track so much (even the rejected or incidental ones). In Return of the Jedi I start to skip over tracks. By the time of the 2nd trilogy, I began to feel there were many fillers.

Its about time someone released a DVD of a Williams concert--I know he is not the main conductor, but it is still awesome. Hopefully the interview snippets in the youtube video will be part of an extensive interview included on the DVD.

Anyone know what composers wrote in this kind of half-quartal/half-tertian idiom? I dunno, but they sound kind of rustic to my ears. It's a kind of writing that resonates with me.

What is happening here? I feel like I'm having a stroke.

Looks cool. But give me KOTOR III!

I truly hope Williams will not take up too much space in the score with old stuff, and instead go for something decently new. How many variations on the Imperial March does one person need?

Same here. 1st person shooters just give me eye strain. At least 3rd persons create a sense of peripheral vision. Grew up with the first two, and I'll definitely be getting this (ablate on PC this time). Looks amazing.

I only ever played the original Oscar winning mono mix

Wallfisch is a talented fellow who takes a lot after his mentor, Dario Marianelli. Though I find his material kind of watered down when compared to the master, he's still someone to keep an eye out for. I haven't heard Desert Dancer yet, but I look forward to it. Some clips, if you're interested Hlao-roo:

I like this gushing over the crashed Star Destroyer shot http://nerdist.com/the-most-star-destroying-shot-in-the-new-the-force-awakens-teaser/

Why are the doors opening? Fascinating to look at, though there's not much you can gleam from it, except that most four chord songs start on the tonic (I), subdominant (IV), dominant (V) or submediant (vi). It works as a piece of digital art, though.

Someone should get that picture signed at Boston night this year!

... you were saying?

:lol:

I don't think any amount of convincing or rationalization by other people of how enjoyable or intelligent or emotional the music is can make you change your mind about it. It may perhaps enlighten you to some aspects of it but if you find it dull you find it dull. You can demand evidence yet if the music is not enough, there isn't much pure talk can do to rectify that. Picking music intellectually apart is not going to help if the music itself does not evoke any emotional response. I am a very critical when it comes to adaptations of my favourite novel, Lord of the Rings, especially the films and all involved with them and at first I was quite skeptical if Shore could pull this great task off. I had hoped he could do the nuance and depth of the world of the novel justice and capture this sense of antiquity and of mythical and as such a bit foreign yet at once familiar feel of Tolkien's work. I listened to the CD of FotR in the autumn of 2001 and was impressed yet not entirely convinced. Only after watching the film I was slowly beginning to think that Shore had indeed succeeded in the near impossible task and during the next few years he proved to be the man for the job, more than that, a man with an admirable affinity for this world and layers of the story. His music sounded fresh and ancient at the same time, his composition was highly thoughtful and even after parsing it for years on my own and on the internet with a highly observant and positive circle of fans it still allows for more discoveries of nuance and details. For me most of the music just falls into place as music and musical story telling, which is emotionally resonant and intellectually rewarding. And here not to try to convince but to illuminate are a few thoughts on Shore's themes in LotR: Thematically Shore's music has left some people wanting because of the numerous seemingly short motivic ideas he has running through these three scores, that do not offer these listeners enough musical identification. In a sense Shore's way of handling things is a bit against the traditional long lined main melody approach of many film composers like Goldsmith, Williams, Horner etc. But I feel Shore is doing something very different in the highly leitmotific world of his scores, more akin to Wagner's sense of leitmotif than the general idea of long themes used in film music. Shore's music continually weaves these smaller themes, also made easier to implement by their relative brevity, into rather complex whole, the scores a continous ebb and flow of these motifs, much like in an opera. He certainly develops them satisfyingly and in multiple ways, orchestrationally, joining them with other themes to form new ideas to illustrate the story's progression, drawing constantly slightly different variations from the basic set of colours in any given thematic idea. Also the use of these larger thematic families sharing certain characteristics, although focused on illustrating cultures and interconnected ideas within the cultures in Shore's work, is quite Wagnerian. I have mentioned before in this thread that Shore also adeptly constructs larger musical figures from the different elements of the music. The themes can be and are used in conjunction to form bigger more complex ideas, a good example the ancillary Mordor motifs that nearly all can be played in layers, one on top of the other. E.g. the Descending Third, the Mordor Skip Beat, The Threat of Mordor, The Way to Mordor all reveal more connections throughout the musical story as does the Hobbit musical material, the Isengard material etc. And I think when addressing such a vast amount of subtext and parallel ideas musically Shore was wise to set a few themes in the center, as longer musical identification and then use different derived ideas as supporting cast as it were. This near Wagnerian approach makes these scores feel quite different from the standard approach of an average film, where the theme and variation is usually presented in a clear cut way. Depth is one thing these scores or themes do not lack in my opinion. As to the individual idea of how well they represent the story or appeal to you is another matter.

How closely have you listened to Howard Shore's work? And what specifically would you argue makes writing more or less mature than the other? You know, I hate to say it Marcus, as I really admire your work, but I think this is a relatively simplistic, dare I say an art school textbook definition of what quality art is comprised of. It's a lovely and ideal thought, something those of us in the arts would love to believe is true. All we gotta do is be fortunate to be discovered, meet the right people, get an education, put in hard work, rack up some experience, and we are on the road to greatness. In the context of a real working world all those elements you mentioned are important, but ultimately a small handful of parts in the collection of innumerable variables and pieces that comprise a quality work of art. Furthermore, rather than allowing you to explore each individual work on its own merits, this mindset will drop you straight into the trap of believing the fallacy that just because someone has authority (through experience and education) that their work is automatically good. The creepy part is, because of the lovely way generalizations work in the mind, you won't even realize it you are doing it. It muddies your objectivism. And the only weapon against it is to consciously be aware of when you are doing it. "Am I really analyzing, or am I allowing my preconceived notions to drive my analysis?" It's a tempting mindset to be in, especially if you've been immersed in academia for a lengthy period of time, but it will be valuable to you in the real world to break from it. Your work will become better because of it, because you will gain an appreciation of the multitudes of variables and their complex interactions that go into making good work. Hard work, experience, and education are just fragments of what you need. They can be very helpful in developing a solid foundation to approach the challenges of, but they are no means to an end.

Another characteristic of this board (since Incanus is in a mood to list them), is prickly tension and touchy sensitivity whenever anyone dares to make light of the tone or given matter in relation to their, no - our - blessed maestro. Speaking personally, I'm absolutely sick and tired of the broken record that presumes any counter argument, alternative angle or indeed jokish banter where Williams' music is concerned is automatically presumed to be a mean spirited afront to both the composer and his most loyal of fans. That in itself is a hoity and unassailable brand of arrogance which permeates the board easily just as much as the throwaway mockery and daily tit-for-tat, and yet those staunch fans act like their shit doesn't stink. Knock it off! We all know there's a contingent of Williams followers who'd love nothing more than to keep this place a serious hub for all discussion about John Williams the composer sophisticate; happily sucking the personality and character out of the place while they're at it. Which is a shame and ridiculously selfish - since they must surely fail to realise that it's the fruity way and flow of this place which provides the forum's beating heart. Marcus, I've always very much enjoyed your extremely insightful posts, which are unfortunately rarer and rarer, but I'm afraid the musicians perspective is simply getting more and more predictable and tiresome. It's a historical thing here - for a musician to speak out in Williams' defense from a purely experience and technical standpoint - as if John's skill and sophistication automatically and just as a matter of course bests all [new]comers. It's just a chronically limited pov to some fans here, and it all gets a bit boring when it shows up again and again.

Considerably harsher than I would have put it, but I have to agree. All the time served experience, knowledge and craft in the world isn't worth either the paper it is sketched on or the instrument it is played upon if I, the listener, do not feel it. Marcus seems to be confusing his cosy, limitless admiration for John Williams with a sort of educated truth as he sees it; completely overlooking the fact that nothing in his well bowed repertoire means a thing next to the simple yet pure sensations of goosebumps, laughter and tears. Not for the first time, I stress, it appears another musician fails to perceive music beyond their savvy for its theory. Why is this seemingly always the case?