Jump to content

Leaderboard

Popular Content

Showing content with the highest reputation on 21/05/20 in all areas

  1. Happy 40th Anniversary to one of John's greatest ever film scores, The Empire Strikes Back. Easily the strongest trio of new themes for any sequel score -- The Imperial March, Han Solo and the Princess and Yoda's Theme, capped off with the greatest end credits suite of Williams' career. You can't overstate the immense legacy of this score; music that remains as stirring today as the day it was released. Bravo, Maestro. Masterpiece.
    11 points
  2. And the saga's first actual love theme! (No, really.)
    6 points
  3. I know this score better than practically any other piece of music, and yet it still astonishes me anew on every listen. Not just the big themes and set-pieces, but the dialogue underscore, the atmospheric cues. And the sculpting of tension and payoff, not just over scenes but through the whole soundtrack, is simply incredible. Even what some might deem musical "flaws," like the unrelenting use (overuse?) of the Imperial March, are dramatically and structurally fitting. Can't lavish enough superlatives on this score. Feel like that could be said of each and every cue in ESB!
    5 points
  4. I'll paste in the complete text for convenience if that's ok with you: Karol
    5 points
  5. picture from @Falstaft's theme collection "The Medallion" theme is a seductive melody full of teasing by minor sixth leaps, triplets, and slow descents, and at first playful, sharpened notes, and then by relaxing flattened notes. It's in a (romantic) key full of flats, and the choice of Eb major in particular over neighbouring keys comes in handy in the finale, when the theme seemingly briefly portrays the 'raiders'' triumph in achieving their objective. Eb major has no significance in relation to the instruments that it is voiced in, as far as I was able to find, so the choice is rather likely to be dramatic than stricte utilitarian. The chord structure seems rather inconspicuous. It follows Williams' trend of harmony accompaniments of love themes, maybe slightly more on the mysterious side. The rhytm change in the pivotal moment of the theme and the "open" ending on a III (G) chord seems to give a glimpse of something; a promise of a shift with an ending left unknown. It is first heard voiced by a voxine cor anglais, lower in pitch and so closer to a seductive direction than an oboe would be. The point of this post is that the interpretation that Williams wrote a rather elaborate theme for the medallion, which does not play in the inscription reading scene in Cairo, or when major Toht shows the mark on his burned hand, or in the map room scene (!) and only plays for a nebulous reason in the finale, is rather suspicious, and that I think I have found a better explanation of what it represents. Part 1: We first hear it when Marion looks at the golden medallion and considers selling it. It starts playing when the medallion is shown, but then she looks at it on one hand and on money in the other hand (literally), and contemplates for a moment. It stops playing when she leaves the medallion on the table and walks away with money. It plays again when Indy and Sallah are carrying the Ark away in the Well of Souls, and the camera follows the shadow cast by them. They look like cartoon thieves. We finally hear it when Belloq, a man who likes luxuries, sells his morality for money, and dreams of possessing a "radio to God" for not exactly pious reasons, is amazed by his apparent victory and the ghostly visions. I am convinced that It is not a motif of the physical object (the medallion), but rather a theme of sin. The weak point of the interpretation is that in the second instance Indy and Sallah have no ill intentions. But a theme of sin playing still makes more sense than an unrelated medallion theme, doesn't it? We can definitely look for clues in why does 'The Medallion' theme play in the finale. We know that Williams likes to plan writing music based on where it is going, based on the end. He did it on larger scale just a year later---in E.T.... So let's analyze the logic of the theme succession in the track The Miracle of the Ark: Following the textbook use of themes in this score and the apparent narrative logic, since Indy and Marion are powerless in the finale, their themes do not play; the only themes at play are those about the active parties: God, the ghost maidens, and... the Raiders, apparently. The Nazi menace theme cannot play, because the goons throw down their weapons and look around scared. The suggestion that the "Medallion Theme" plays simply because it is a part of the Ark magic doesn't seem very convincing to me. I don't think it's the "sounds nice" Yoda's Theme situation in the Cloud City from a year prior either. Yoda's theme was something special for Williams, while the 'Medallion Theme' was confined to the film and never heard from again. The theme is a triumphant statement with extremely agitated strings and proud horns. It plays after the 'mortal danger' rendition of the Ark theme---God's last warning to the Raiders----and is directly preceded by a figure based on a romantic theme from Dracula; a figure which portrays the dance of the beautiful ghost maidens [btw. there was a glimpse of it already in the winds in Map Room Dawn]. I think that in this context the statement of the theme clearly portrays the overwhelming human urges that Belloq feels. It's a seeming triumph of the very worldly desires of the Raiders of the Lost Ark. The final tone is held long, as if God's offer still remained open, until it is proven beyond question that the conviction of the villains is unshakable. The Ark theme responds with a boil [on the album and in the cut that Williams scored, anyway; they clearly later cut out these few seconds of the film for a more drastic surprise value], and a shower of murderous atonal clusters follows; all the villains are wiped out. These clusters do not appear to have any connection to the theme. Raiders of the Lost Ark has some rather obvious symbolism concerning the theme of God punishing or rewarding depending on morality (the Hakenkreuz on the Ark crate is burnt off, people who opened the Ark are killed, ropes of the innocent Indy and Marion are burnt away). And since Williams conceptualised the Ark theme as a devillish tritone inside a perfect fifth, is a theme of a temptation to sin so far away? Some might instinctively object to Williams writing a theme about such an abstract concept as sin, but the entire score is full of beckoning, mystery, and romance, starting already with the jungle opening, and including the Ark theme itself. Secondly, since the love theme is quite bitter-sweet and "bruised", and Indiana Jones's heroic theme is frequently described as overcoming character's failures, we can conclude that the musical themes in Raiders are a bit deeper than, say, Star Wars OT themes. For these two reasons already I don't think a theme of sin in this particular score it is a far-fetched proposition. Part 2: There are no indications in the transcript of the story room discussions whatsoever that the medallion has any significance or qualities other than as a physical McGuffin that leads to the Ark. I doubt Spielberg or Lucas would have asked Williams to write a theme for it. An early draft of the script describes the scene introducing the theme so: It is more likely that they would highlight to Williams that Marion contemplates the artifact and the money. The storyroom transcript says about Marion: and about Belloq: and, for a contrast, about Jones: So a theme of sin might play for Marion and for Belloq, but is unlikely to play directly for Jones. This is consistent with my interpretations of the 3 uses of the theme in the film. The only alternative of what happened in the spotting session I see is that they asked Williams to write a theme highlighting the artifact, and Williams dropped the theme in all further meaningful contexts, but decided to use it in two random moments instead. We all know the fandom memes, but cmon, this would be some sort of a record at the time. Truth be told, the story room conversations of George Lucas, Steven Spielberg, and Larry Kasdan are centered on the pulp adventure and don't touch on the religious or serious aspect of the film too much. The conversations between Kasdan, Phil Kaufman, and Debby Fine, on the other hand, go very deep into literary sources and the historical context. That the thoughts about the mystical elements of the film underwent some maturation over time can be seen in the effects of scenes such as that of the introduction of the Ark to the Washington agents. Initially the agents were supposed to be the ones convincing Jones about a military danger of the Ark, and in the film proper they are the ones slowly realizing that the biblical Ark might be real and have some power when Jones tells them about the wrath of God. But let's return to the composition level. Williams' McGuffin and non-human themes tend to be short (Shark, Death Star, Hoth, The Ark). This one is much longer, and is very voxine and lyrical, as if it was expressing human emotions, or speaking to a character's thoughts. If it was a theme for the medallion, what would his decisions about the content of those bars mean? Why would it be in the romantic Eb major and not in C minor, like the ark theme, or in a mysterious G minor? And why such "whimsical" triplets? The medallion itself has no effect on Marion, other than as a sentimental trinket. I don't think Williams wanted to say that God tries to make Marion desire the artifact, since throughout the entire film God only ever warns people and tries to scare them away from the Ark. What she wants is the money, for which she is willing to sell the semi-sacred medallion (and the Bible really frowns upon such motivations---see: the wrath of God at the end). Williams worked deliberately and for quite some time to make this melody very good, note after a note, and express what he wanted it to express. He probably spent hours working on this. It's tight and on a Tchaikovsky level. Every other theme in the film is constructed very deliberately to express what it accompanies. It would be inconsistent if this one did not. But in the end, there is no definitive proof. It's a leap from the lion's head either way. So... what do you think, gents? Should the "Medallion Theme" henceforth be known as the Theme of Sin?
    4 points
  6. mstrox

    Star Wars Disenchantment

    The year is 2145. The last 130 years of Star Wars movies I didn't like have all been a windup. Disney LucasFilm, a PepsiCo Corporation, has just hired Robot Harrison Ford and Ian McDiarmid for version 2 of episode VIII, and they're FINALLY going to reveal their true plans. And finally I, a person who hasn't liked any new Star Wars since 1980, will be satisfied.
    4 points
  7. The reason there is a price difference is because people accept lossy files as standard and therefore the lossless is being treated as some sort of premium product. And with mp3's they charge you the same as what you'd pay for a CD and that just doesn't sound right, does it? It's not about hearing the difference but more about principle. It's a scam. You've had music music in superior quality for decades and now you're paying same for less. And that's because people accept it as normal. The reason why you had to have compressed files 20 years ago was due to slower internet connection and storage capacity. It's not an issue anymore so why not move on? I'm going on a bit of a tangent here but it's same with 4K video streaming. They charge you more on services like Netflix for that but it's not really 4K. Because it cannot be. The UHD discs carry up to 100GB data and it's not feasible to stream files that size via an average internet connection. So you end up with quality below regular Blu-ray with a bit of HDR slapped on and, yeah, you pay more money for it. And you're right average person won't see it. But, again, principle. In other words: I get what you're saying but you're still getting shafted. Karol
    4 points
  8. The Battle of Hoth is amazing, one of the best action music I've ever listened. 15 minutes of excitement!
    4 points
  9. 'The Clash of the Lightsabers' Basically 1:38 to the end you have that beautiful rendition of Yoda's Theme segueing into Lando's Palace theme followed by fantastic treatments of Han Solo and the Princess with a mixture of fanfares throughout. This cue is one of JW's greatest.
    3 points
  10. mstrox

    Star Wars Disenchantment

    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-writer-sets-record-straight-perceived-last-jedi-jabs-1265168 See the third question - it's something JJ and Chris Terrio came up with. Additionally, Colin Trevorrow's drafts have been leaked (and he's confirmed that they are indeed his drafts) and don't have Palpatine, a clear indication that this was not in the cards from the beginning. Plus, @elvisjones said so, and he's a reliable source.
    3 points
  11. It's obvious Zimmer's clone factory just undercut Clausen and they looked for an excuse to get rid of him and save costs (all while the voice actor fees continue to blow out year on year; eventually something's gotta give). Not that I'm defending the decision, just the reality of how the business operates. This rubbish narrative they've invented to justify getting rid of him is embarrassing.
    3 points
  12. Arpy

    Star Wars Disenchantment

    This thread with Mattris slipping in and out of troll/conspiratorial mode:
    3 points
  13. TFA is constructed very much like Ep 4 is constructed. Secret data is placed in a droid, the droid goes into the desert and is found by a young person with unusually developed skills (Luke's piloting, Rey's scavenging). The young person is taken in by an older father figure (Obi-Wan, Han Solo) who fills the youth in on the state of affairs beyond the desert world. The father figure is murdered by a good guy turned bad and the youth must take up the mantle to carry on the ancient way that is in danger of being lost forever. The good guys attack a colossal super weapon. It's not a carbon copy of Ep 4 - there are differences - but it's clearly built on the spine of a tested formula that JJ knows works - EP 4 is a successful film, not only commercially, but artistically, so he doesn't mess with the structure. [As an aside, I can tell you from personal experience that a big part of JJ's process breaking story is that you have to show him an example where something worked in another film or tv program before he will accept it as an option in whatever you're working on with him] RJ, by contrast, at almost every turn, takes the structure and setup of Ep5 and turns it in the opposite direction. DJ is clearly intended for the audience to relate to as they did to Lando - a scoundrel who betrays the heroes but does the right thing in the end. Only he doesn't. Luke will, perhaps grudgingly like Yoda, finally agree to teach Rey, and his early behavior is a test of her patience to see if she's worthy. Only it isn't - Luke has disconnected himself from the Force entirely and has given up the game. Poe is pulling off the impossible, facing a star destroyer by himself in one tiny x-wing. Instead of being congratulated for heroism as Luke is in the original trilogy, Poe is slapped in the face and demoted. Ben tells Luke - if you face Vader you do it alone, I cannot interfere. In Ep 8, Luke completely interferes by facing Kyle Ren in spirit at the end of the film. The cave sequence in Empire, where Luke faces Vader and finds his own face behind the mask, is mirrored (literally) in Ep 8 when Rey, in trying to see her parents in the dark side cave, only sees herself. The big reveal of Empire, that Vader is Luke's father, is turned against itself when the big reveal of Ep 8 is that Rey's parents are nobodies. If you are saying that Vader's turn to good at the end of Jedi is somehow proof that TFA is not built on following the tropes of Star Wars, because Kylo Ren doesn't turn good at the end of EP 7, with respect, I think that is being too shortsighted. Vader murders Obi-Wan, his old master, "the closest thing he has to father" (dia from ep 2) in front of Luke. Kylo murders Han, his literal father, in front of Rey. Again, let me reiterate, I'm not saying 7 or 8 is better than the other, I am just pointing out that the 2 films are made with very different intentions. JJ reveres the past (and I'm not saying that's a bad thing), RJ says "let go of the past. Kill it if you have to..." (And I'm not saying that's a bad thing either). At their hearts, both films reinforce certain core ideas to the star wars stories, such as the young boy with the Force at the end of Ep 8 and the spirit of hope that Leia carries even as they flee Crait.
    3 points
  14. Mattris

    Star Wars Disenchantment

    We will come to realize that Lucasfilm specifically designed the Sequel Trilogy - and its seemingly endless, surrounding controversy - to challenge the audience... Star Wars fans, in particular. The film-makers foresaw the division that would be be created due to the fans' assumptions: 'TFA was Mary Sue story and a remake of A New Hope!', 'TLJ was subversive, depressing nonsense!', 'They brought back the Emperor out of nowhere... and desperation!', plot holes, feminism, "poorly executed repetition", etc. The reality is, getting this reaction - the disappointment, complaints, division - was intended, as the audience grossly misunderstood the very purpose of the trilogy. Once people realize the truth of it all, we can begin to unite. And then there's what's coming next with "the stories," which I truly think will be designed to unite. What a devious - but ultimately satisfying - experience it will have been!
    3 points
  15. whew. If they did that with Rise of Skywalker we'd have Music Composed and Conducted by Trailer Music Intern #2
    2 points
  16. Kathleen Kennedy really seems to love Rian Johnson. Gave him his own trilogy!
    2 points
  17. I think it's an interesting consideration. I've always known the theme as the "medallion theme", because my first version of the score was the Silva Screen album, where Lukas Kendall calls it that. But nearly as long as I can think back I've been perplexed by this, because it's used so rarely, and only once in clear connection with the medallion. That happens to be the first time we hear it, so it's an obvious connection to make, but why write a very distinctive theme for a specific object and then only use it for the first time we see that object and then a bunch of other times when we don't (including its biggest statement when the medallion has long left the story)? And if it were a part of the ark theme, why prominently introduce it on its own, in a scene not (directly) related to the ark, but then not use it in most of the major statements of the ark theme?
    2 points
  18. Really nice scrutiny and breakdown OP. This is one of Williams' very best minor motifs. The whole Ark theme together including this B section... it is one of my earliest musical memories. This theme had a profound effect on me when I was young.
    2 points
  19. https://www.indiewire.com/2020/05/alexandre-desplat-interview-black-widow-pinocchio-french-dispatch-1202232702/
    2 points
  20. 2 points
  21. "Lament for Gandalf" is used (briefly) in Guardians of the Three.
    2 points
  22. My Heavens but do they have to be so indecent?!
    2 points
  23. I liked Dawn of the Dead and Watchmen. Man of Steel was meh and, for me, missed the whole point of the character, and BvS was terrible. 300 was garbage. We skipped Justice League.
    2 points
  24. Elfman’s score was criticised because it didn’t use enough synths and the themes had more than two notes. The comments under his music on YouTube are full of terrible takes. He was criticised for not using HZ or Junkie XL’s themes (if you can call them “themes”). HZ, of course, is known for his use of previously established themes in franchises 🙄. Didn’t he write it in like a week?
    2 points
  25. I wouldn't overthink the label here. The initial few statements of the theme link it with the Medallion, but most subsequent usages are looser. This is not atypical for Williams, or indeed any composer who uses the leitmotif technique in a non-mechanical way. I love the thought and detail you've put into this analysis, @Fabulin, but I confess I'm puzzled by a number aspects, not least of which is the claim the theme is in Eb major. Don't mean to be too dogmatic here, but it's about as unambiguously in Cm as a theme can be. In particular, the G-major at the conclusion constitutes a half-cadential dominant, which may or may not lead to the return to the tonic C-minor. There are Williams themes where tonal function is more ambiguous, of course, but alas this isn't one of them. At the same time, I agree with you that it is an autonomous theme, not a B-section of the Ark Theme. (Though it does retroactively serve that role rather well in Ark Trek and the Miracle of the Ark!)
    2 points
  26. My first ever cinema trip. I didn't see a thing of course because I was in the womb. I thought it was probably Return of the Jedi but that was released in Poland in February 1985 (!) which is a month after my birth. And it definitely wasn't the original because Yoda was in it. I know because my mum thought I looked like when I was born (not sure how to take that) 😆 Anyway, it does explain why I have such a soft spot for certain score. When I first heard some of Williams' music from this film around the age of 10 or 12 I experienced chills like never before (or since, for that matter). Karol
    2 points
  27. We had a thread for this @mstrox! Posting the news here for posterity, The Simpsons will finally be streaming in its correct aspect ratio on May 28.
    2 points
  28. 107 themes (29 returning), 27 choral texts (1 returning).
    2 points
  29. JJ provided him with a fairly legitimate reason: "One boy, an apprentice, turned against him [and killed everyone else]. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away." Johnson just went along with that (plus the added "twist" of Luke having contemplated killing Kylo - which I like). But the set-up is all Abrams'.
    2 points
  30. Another mystery box JJ dumped on another writer to solve. Fans, including Hamill, should direct their anger about the handling of Luke towards Abrams, not Johnson. RJ was left with the thankless task of justifying why Luke would abandon his family and the galaxy in the first place. It had to be a legitimate reason, or else his abandonment would be illogical (and the eventual change-of-mind would be cheap).
    2 points
  31. Holko

    Star Wars Disenchantment

    That's on JJ's second run. It may have been his call back to adventure but even in TFA, look at what Mark's doing, that's not overtly a look of "well, time for me to come back" or even "aw shuchs, now I'll have to go back", that's perfectly valid as pain at the past he abandoned following him even back here.
    2 points
  32. True, Rian took all the story threads from TFA then developed and explored them in unexpected directions. JJ just ignored Rian's setup and did his own thing in IX, offering little more than a middle finger to Rian's story threads (Rose, Rey being nobody, Hux undermining Ren turned into little more than a footnote), or totally abandoning others like war profiteering on both sides, Finn's upbringing, etc. All while wasting half the film introducing a bunch of atrocious new JJ characters that were never developed in any meaningful way.
    2 points
  33. Clauson has a point, they fired him and replaced him with robots aping his style, but they have a grievance with him delegating some of the work to other people?
    2 points
  34. Lol. If it's a crime to have others do the work while you slap your name on it then I can think of another composer that might be in trouble...
    2 points
  35. Really, I didn't know that. You are interesting.
    2 points
  36. Gonna resurrect this old thread here. I was interested in watching this again, so I dug it up and realized I've never seen this video shared here before and always thought it was an interesting look into the creation process. Here's James Newton Howard breaking down writing the WB Logo / Main Title moment at the top of the movie and he goes through 4 or 5 versions with different themes and ideas, complete with demos from the film and reactions from David Yates. I'd be curious to see what members here think of the other potential versions. This is certainly reflected here:
    2 points
  37. Oh I think the enormous success of LotR and the first trio of Harry Potters are purely to blame. When producers noticed that not only was there suddenly a big appetite for longform high fantasy but that these kinds of films could even win academy awards and be thought of as mainstream in the broadest sense, the floodgates were well and truly opened. Anything could be a sprawling epic after that, at least in conception. Execution was another matter though. Beginning with Jackson's own King Kong.
    1 point
  38. I'd love to see that analytics report.
    1 point
  39. Holko

    Star Wars Disenchantment

    oh come on, JJ was obviously setting him up to jump up in the first act of 8 and slice up Star Destroyers with his lightsaber dick and crush Starkiller II with a thought. The rest of the movie would have been Rey failing at everything she tries including walking and breathing.
    1 point
  40. i do recommend Monsignor. The film tracks sound a lot better than the OST tracks including Gloria
    1 point
  41. Mattris

    Star Wars Disenchantment

    Shooting the messenger will never solve your problems.
    1 point
  42. Mattris

    Star Wars Disenchantment

    Sure, the early canon novels feature tons of clues. Star Wars: Aftermath: Empire's End is a Star Wars novel by Chuck Wendig, published on February 21, 2017. It is the third book of the Aftermath trilogy, set after the events of Return of the Jedi. Immediately after the The Rise of Skywalker teaser was released: The book features Palpatine before his 'death', as well as details of his Contingency. The second book in the trilogy, Aftermath: Life Debt (published July 12, 2016), also contains pertinent Palpatine backstory, scenes, and references.
    1 point
  43. Mattris

    Star Wars Disenchantment

    It should be obvious that "logical and simple" have not been Lucasfilm's modem operandi as of late. The fact is, you have no idea how "these movies are made" and have presented no evidence to support your 'no plan' theory. (Pointing to George Lucas' approach doesn't count.) On the other hand, I have presented a vast array of evidence of a "master plan at work". You might want to do more than 'skim my arguments'. Abrams' and Kennedy's latest comments make it clear that they did have a plan, so actually "you are the one making extraordinary claims and the burden of proof rests squarely and solely on your shoulders." Also, I did not say this story had "been planned out for 40 years" - only that this trilogy's story and primary characters were planned during the pre-production of TFA. What you call "wild speculation around every comment" from those making current Star Wars, I call decoding their intentionally-presented clues. My approach is merited, as Daisy Ridley said in a produced bit for Good Morning America after Star Wars Celebration: 'Our comments now don't seem to make sense, but later, you'll be like, Oh, that's what they meant by that!' So claiming "the comments these people make to the media aren’t usually true hints at anything, they’re just random nonsense meant to get people excited about the movie" has been specifically addressed and squashed by the lead actress. So not only are they giving us clues to their plan, they're telling us that they're giving clues. Yes, "this stuff" is marketing. Shame nearly everyone thinks the stuff means nothing when these film makers are utilizing grossly unorthodox methods at every turn to draw attention to their trIXie plan for the Sequel Trilogy. This includes Bob Iger saying that George Lucas felt "betrayed" when his Sequel Trilogy treatments weren't used... in his book released just 3 months before release of Episode IX. If you think Lucasfilm's approach to marketing "is to sell more tickets", you are completely out of touch, as a significant percentage of Star Wars fans would be happy to scrub this trilogy from canon if they could. I say that Disney/Lucasfilm expected fans' ignorant/upset/confused frame of mind - even counted on it - as the unexpected grandeur of Episode IX will only smack the unsuspecting audience that much harder. "Here’s a tip for you." Criticizing my use of "big words" only makes you look petty. John Williams used "cornucopia" while introducing his Harry Potter music back in 2002, so pardon me for using it in this forum.
    1 point
  44. Mattris

    Star Wars Disenchantment

    How do you know that George Lucas penned that scene in 2003... or that he didn't tell John Williams to include The Emperor's Theme for that specific reason? I look forward to your answers to my other questions.
    1 point
  45. Mattris

    Star Wars Disenchantment

    Nah, JW specifically said that he only agreed to score TLJ because it was confirmed to him that Daisy was in it. If my theory comes to pass, Daisy will continue in the film even if Rey dies. @Chen G. I'm curious to hear your answers to these specific questions of mine... that I already posed: - For Johnson not to have scrapped anything when writing TLJ, JJ would not have had treatments for VIII and IX. Is that what you think? - If so, it would follow that you think that JJ and L. Kasdan wrote all of those lines (that I quoted on the previous page) without an idea of their (originally intended) meaning. Is that what you think? - Do you believe Johnson when he says he didn't meet with JJ before he wrote TLJ? - Do you think that the low-high-mid ordered note groupings in the cadence of Rey's Theme (like Darth Vader's Theme) mean nothing specific - along with the abundance of minor thirds (The Emperor's Theme) in her theme and motif?
    1 point
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.