Leaderboard

I know, but she's all dead.

Another really great performance by (I think, they didn’t have programmes) the Philharmonic Concert Orchestra. A few thoughts: I really didn’t miss the choir in the Emperor passages and it was great to be able to hear the underlying orchestral parts. Have any of those sections been reworked to compensate for the lack of choir or is the choir just omitted? This seemed to have more instances of cues crashing into each other/overlapping between scenes than the first two. Must be especially horrible to perform as you lose musicality and timing when a short passage tramples over another section. Great to hear the score in obviously superior quality to the various soundtrack releases. Especially passages like the superstructure chase which I assume will always sound naff given the recording issues. As a prelude to the second half, they played an excerpt from Carbon Freeze from Empire. Bit odd. They performed the percussion passage as the heroes are taken to the Ewok village which I’m pretty sure isn’t on any version. I mean it’s just some percussion so you’re not missing much but it was nice to hear. Performing the Ewok horn calls on trumpet was a nice touch. The orchestra only version of Victory Celebration I actually liked more although it sounds oddly more wistful and melancholy like that. I still can’t understand how the join with the end credits is so bad though…

"Is this the full list, Ma'am?" - "No, there is another…"

What is wrong with you people? It's perfect as it is. And I would say Azkaban(best score of those three) mix is annoying, music is way too low. But hey, I love Williams.

Just came out of this. As predicted, this was a much better experience than last year in Nottingham and I would argue a better one than The Empire Strikes Back a couple years ago. It might be just the venue, the LSO or Dirk Brosse. Probably all three. Yes, the score is a weird Frankenstein monster. But for whatever reason it came together better. Karol

Nope, it was just a civilized conversation between people having different points of view. Nobody is forcing anyone to change their critical opinion. Nobody is a soccer mom here; actually, Timmy happens to be a real pro. But of course, in a Middle-Earth thread one should expect to encounter trolls! They wrote the melody, and McCreary arranged and orchestrated.

As I mentioned, it was mostly comprised of a bunch of Ludlow material, including both the typical Ludlow we know and love, as well as some fanfaric material similar to the opening of "Quidditch". It doesn't use the whole orchestra; the focus is mainly on the brass, as well as some percussion. The concert program says it's "scored for 5 trumpets, 6 horns, 4 trombones, 2 tubas, glockenspiel, and tubular bells." It's a fun, breezy Williams fanfare, and was a nice opening to the concert, even if it doesn't cover new ground. Here are the program notes:

So these are the ranks according to Wiki The five classes of appointment to the Order are, in descending order of precedence: Knight Grand Cross or Dame Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (GBE)[b] Knight Commander or Dame Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (KBE or DBE) Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (CBE) Officer of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (OBE) Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (MBE) So Williams is a Knight Commander?

It would have been incredible for JW to have met the Queen and the photos from such an event. He probably would have told her the Schindler's List anecdote

official source: Honorary awards to foreign nationals in 2022 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

It’s interesting to read this from a guy like Rickman and I remember also Norman Lebrecht’s comment that it ‘completely failed to match a kids movie about wizards’ or something like that. Actually the kids that grew up with it all love the score and it’s a huge part of the nostalgia for these films. Williams knows all too well what to do for this kind of film…

Apparently, one of the final awards approved by the Queen https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11244771/Queens-final-knight-John-Williams-honoured-creating-music-blockbuster-films.html

Bob Iger... Bob Iger is my sister!

They can’t do it. They played around with the music so much in the editing room that the music recorded does not match what was in the movie even pitch wise. They would have to make the sheets from scratch

Sounds pretty fishy if you ask me. Maybe an obsessive fan had her killed so can say her dying words were to make JW a knight.

But we do live in a world there not all composers are equal, nor all meet your personal standards. You and others are having one hell of a hard time accepting that. You've got to be able to accept a score on its own terms, without living permanently in a state of 'what could have been'. There's certainly encouragement and striving to be better, but then there's denigration of any work that doesn't match what an expert in the field does. Who wins from that perspective, except academics such as yourselves who want to constantly remind the rest of us that you know more about music and that what we're hearing is unacceptable, despite us enjoying it from a lay musical perspective? The Gondor theme is indeed nice but I personally don't see what's so inferior about the Numenor theme.

Picked up some used CDs today...and realised only after the fact The Dark Crystal is a bootleg. Karol

Well, discussing musical aesthetics in a forum post is always difficult; due to reasons of brevity and time, one is forced to select certain aspects and not mention others that might be equally important, and inevitably this can be incorrectly interpreted as superficiality. Rest assured that I have a much more articulated view of what I consider advanced, and I am well aware that the quality of music is not just determined by its harmonic language (although for me, it is an important factor). I was just pointing to one particular aspect that I think McCreary dealed with in a more advanced way than Shore. Since earlier in this thread some people were trashing McCreary's score because they felt it inadequate in comparison with Shore's, I was just trying to propose that, depending on what you look for in a piece of music, McCreary's score can be seen as equally interesting and well done as Shore's. McCreary is just using a different aesthetic system, which I feel is more suited to the series he had to score. In that perspective, he did a very good job; contrarily to what others may think, it takes skill to write in that way.

Maybe he would've liked the score better if it was a minimalistic, all synth, unintrusive and completely devoid of emotion, like those scores these days that get all of the awards.

She signed the papers and was like “Now I can die.”

Probably in the top 3 of alive music composers

Sir John of House Williams, the Master of Musics and Fine Arts and Earl of Tanglewood

I just found a list of some of the honors bestowed on musicians by the monarchy. https://www.heraldica.org/topics/famous/knighthd.htm Can't vouch for the validity of this site, but if accurate, a few observations I can make for it: Most leading composers of the 20th century do not have KBEs - mostly just CBE or below. Many are knights but not necessarily knights of the the British Empire. The key exception is Benjamin Britten who was made a Baron, and that ranks above KBE. Examples: William Walton, CBE Richard Bennett, CBE Malcom Arnold, CBE Ralph Vaughan Williams, OM Some KBEs in the conductor ranks: Previn (who probably counted as both conductor and composer, as Sir Johnny does.) Georg Solti Mstislav Rostropovich Yehudi Menuhin was made KBE and then a Baron So, indeed this KBE is a pretty rare honorary award and speaks to the impact of Sir Johnny's influence. Really quite cool even if he cannot fashion himself (not that he would) as a Sir. We've been all rising when he walks in or out of the room for years anyway. In terms of any kinds of honors going to composers with film or TV pedigrees, Williams joins Previn (who stopped doing scores in the 60s'), Britten (who composed scores to make ends meet in the 30s), Arnold (who did a few), Bliss (also in the 30s), Andrew Lloyd Webber (stage), Elton John (as a songwriter), Ralph Vaughan Williams (with a few compositions that started as film scores), Bennett (a fair few), and Walton (who worked in film sporadically but over multiple decades- the Olivier/Shakespeare scores being standouts that are still played in concert halls). Long Live (Sir) John Towner Williams!

Oh good grief. I think this is the first time I've mentioned Bear's score (which I like) in relation to Shore's, and that was in response to another comment which was drawing a comparison. And look, this is a site where we discuss film music, of course people are going to make comparisons. Especially when we're talking about two scores that are written for the same source material, and one is clearly influenced by the other. To say nothing of the fact that Shore wrote the theme for the series...Shore's music literally immediately precedes Bear's in every episode. So if anyone is inviting comparisons here, it's Amazon. If Amazon didn't want such comparisons, they shouldn't have brought Shore on board. And if Bear didn't want comparisons, he shouldn't have created something so clearly reminiscent of Shore. Shore's work bears no resemblance to Rosenman's, but you can't say the same for Bear's to Shore's. So yeah, I think comparing the two works is more than fair. And in any event, comparing the two scores doesn't mean you can't enjoy both. Not that you're comparing them.

@mrbellamy why did you use the Report button on your own post? I didn't even know that was possible!

Maybe he was disappointed that there was no Snape's theme...

I would read it as a general, philosophical hostility, and a sardonic admission that the film and the score do work on the big screen as intended.

The Towner of London!

Terrific ROTJ concert at the Albert Hall last night; sat front row so the LSO cellos were literally ten feet from me! My friend and I wondered: what is keeping Williams himself from the Albert Hall / LSO? In any case, a treat, as we hope for Milan tickets.

Yesterday Alan Menken finally received his Max Steiner award in what was originally going to be the 2020 Hollywood in Vienna gala concert, until it got postponed twice by one year each due to the pandemic. Once again, the entire programme was dedicated exclusively to Menken compositions, with the exception of Broughton's opening fanfare and the traditional final Gone With the Wind encore. The programme consisted of: Overture & Be Our Guest (from Beauty and the Beast, but with "funny" modified lyrics to fit the evening) Bless Our Show (from Sister Act - the musical; I keep forgetting Menken was involved with that) Enchanted - Suite Suite & I See the Light (Tangled) Home on the Range - Suite* Go the Distance & Gospel Medley (Hercules) Intro & Friend Like Me A Whole New World Prince Ali Proud of Your Boy(all from Aladddin) Pocahontas - Suite* The Hunchback of Notre Dame - Suite The Little Mermaid - Suite* Under the Sea (same) Something There Suite* (Beauty and the Beast) Encores: How Does a Moment Last Forever (Beauty and the Beast) Suddenly Seymour (Little Shop of Horrors) Some of the suites included songs (I've marked those with an asterisk). Most importantly, this meant that Pocahontas included Colors of the Wind, and The Little Mermaid included Poor Unfortunate Soulds (brilliantly performed by Drew Sarich) and Part of Your World. Sadly, some were purely instrumental; I usually find Menken's underscore nice enough, but mostly secondary to the songs, so I'd usually rather have just the songs instead. Tangled is the one where I find the actual score more interesting than usually, but sadly they didn't include the standout piece (Kingdom Dance) in the suite. Hunchback's dramatic Orff-Requiem finale I always found good but overrated, and it's long… I would have preferred the dramatic opening song/score, or Heaven's Light & Hellfire. The Beauty and the Beast suite ended with the titular song - but sadly with an arrangement of the pop version that started out as a duet and ended up involving the entire ensemble. The only bits I didn't know were Sister Act and Home on the Range, and at least without context it was rather grotesquely eccentric. How Does a Moment Last Forever was performed by Menken himself at the piano, after receiving the Steiner award. The ORF Radio-Symphonieorchester (as usual) was conducted by Michael Kosarin (co-composer, arranger, and conductor for many Menken projects since Hercules - the programme booklet claims that their first collaboration was when he allegedly conducted Pocahontas, but neither the CD booklet nor IMDb corroborate that he was involved with that at all). The cast was made up of Broadway and West End singers, many of whom originated the stage versions of the songs the performed - much better than my initial fear that they would cast Austrian/German musical singers (or even perform the German versions of the songs). Sounds great so far? It probably could have been, but Hollywood in Vienna has been persistent in making each concert bigger and more EPIC! than the previous one. What started out with a first rate concert conducted by John Mauceri (with music by Korngold, Williams, and Goldsmith, among others) has long since become a big spectacle with a click-tracked, amplified orchestra and choir that puts more emphasis on the projections, light show, "funny" moderators, and overall EPICness than the actual music. Even then this year's programme could have fared reasonably well, but for most of it, the mix was a mess. Even when the orchestra wasn't mixed so loudly as to drown out the singers, the balance was off (because the voice came from the overhead speakers, while the massive orchestra came, when not over-mixed, primarily from the stage). But mostly, everything was turned up to 11 (orchestra, soloists, choir), and when the percussion kicked in, all you could really hear was drums and a massive wall of sound. I was very much looking forward to the gospel stuff from Hercules (possibly the most ingenious thing Menken has done), but for much of it I could only make out the drums and the lower alto (?) muse. In retrospect, I Won't Say (I'm In Love) would probably have worked much better. There was a relatively brief stretch - from Pocahontas to The Little Mermaid - where the mix (or perhaps the arrangements) was more tempered, and that part of the concert was really quite good (although as I mentioned earlier, not my favourite selection for Hunchback). Sadly, everything was turned up to 11 for an EPIC version of Under the Sea. Ending the official part of the programme with an overproduced, full cast arrangement of the pop version of Beauty and the Beast kind of sums up everything that's wrong (as far as I'm concerned, or from what I expect from a *music* concert as opposed to an epic entertainment spectacle) with the format. Ultimately, the cast was probably first rate, and the performances mostly very fine (I See the Light felt somehow lacking in emotion to me, which may well be attributable to the strict click track), but the overall result was a rather sad, if loud, mess. It'll probably fare much better in a recorded version (I assume a Blu-ray release will be coming), and those who only experience it in that form will probably not even understand much of my criticism. During her speech at the end of the concert, producer Sandra Tomek mentioned that the future is unclear and they don't yet know if there will be another Hollywood in Vienna. I don't know if that is because of lack of funding or for artistic reasons, but we (the traditional group of friends who usually meet up at this (and other film music) concerts) speculated before the concert what they might come up with next, and couldn't think of anything, because after Zimmer and Menken, it seems like they've almost exhausted the big crowd pleasers that can work in this extravagant format (and I can't see them return to a more settled concert setting). My only idea was an all-Marvel programme, which would probably be the first time I decide to skip the concert.

After a shit ton of postponements it's finally out. Excellent arrangements of Bond songs, IMO Always wanted a album like that, I know that there were some in the past but this one hits me in all the right spots

Exactly! "the one" is not "the overall attitude of this thread" , right? People on this website love JW's Harry Potter scores, including the majority of the people in this thread! They are great! Everything does not have to be turned into an argument

"John, help me take this crown off.” “But you’ll die!” “Nothing can stop that now. Just for once, let me look on you with my own eyes.”

Darth Hideous

They would but I think there’s probably a limit as to how much good a score can sound that’s been heavily edited. Jedi definitely had more cues crashing into one another and overlaps and edits. Empire and Star Wars have far fewer or the overlaps are much more natural (ie composed that way).

Enchanted - Alan Menken I love this score. It's so much fun. And I love Narissa's theme. It's just so powerful. I'm excited to hear what the sequel score sounds like in November.

As many have said, the pace is very slow for the first three episodes, really feel a lot of it could of been condensed into an one hour or so episode. But it is a breath of fresh air for a Star Wars show to take it's time, just not maybe this much . Still not sure what the Corporate people are or their relationship with the Empire, but they actually seem competent for the most part and not cartoonishly evil. For Andor himself, he seems to be pretty much the same character as he is in Rogue One, so wondering if there's going to be more flashbacks to fill in how he got to be where he is. Overall though I did enjoy it and will stick with it. A big problem is nobody can agree on "what Star Wars is" or what makes a Star Wars well Star Wars, feels like a lot recently has been nostalgia bait and the new takes being mostly incoherent for both story and action.

Some more cue information has turned up! (Courtesy of GEMA):

You just answered your own question. The soundscape is very, very important: leitmotives always become associated with certain orchestral colours, whether its muted horns with the Tarnhelm, rumbling pianos with the Imperial Walkers or tin whistles with Hobbits. To replicate those colours so deliberately is to invite comparisons and, in so doing, ensure the score lives with an inferiority complex. Doesn't mean its not a fine, fine score; but the comparison is unavoidable. Only if Bear broke away completely with Howard Shore's practices - and, significantly, had the show not had a bona-fide Howard Shore piece in it - could those comparisons be avoided. As it is, they can't.

I would be perfectly capable of listening to Bear's score without thinking of Shore, by the way, just like I can Leonard Rosenman's. But, unlike Rosenman's score, here each episode opens with a (fantastic, by the way) Howard Shore piece. Furthermore, each episode features timbres which are used very deliberately to evoke Howard Shore's "sound": We see Dwarves, enter the male voices. Why? Because that's an association we have in Howard Shore's scores. Elf scenes? Ethereal female choir and harps? Why, because that's a colour Shore associates with the Elves. Hobbits? tin whistles and uileann pipes galore, because that's what we associate with the Hobbits. Even the Hardinfelle that's used to score the Soutlands scenes (and Halbrand's) recall Shore's Rohan writing. Orcs get lots of percussion and very nasal exotic woodwinds. Why? Because that's what the bad guys are associated with in HOWARD SHORE'S SCORES. If you don't want to invite comparisons, write something totally different. As it is, Bear didn't do that: He intentionally wrote something that begs the comparisons, and only serves to highlight the differences.

Now he can ride in the bus.

I'm willing to give Hooper some leeway, since I feel Yates really screwed over Desplat in terms of the kind of scores he could've given to the franchise (which I guess makes JNH a bit of an anomaly).

I made it through two episodes. And about 10 minutes into the third one (with the introduction of Numenor), I gave up. I tried, I really did. It's just so...vanilla. There's no character, personality or even vision to this thing. Tolkien or not. Everything looks, feels and sounds like a plastic knock-off. It also feels very TV...meandering plot lines and contrived Hollywood beats that feel like they were designed by an algorithm of mass fantasy interests. From what I've seen, it feels like a colossal waste of $4 billion. House of Dragons has surprisingly ended up being far more interesting. I'll stick to that!

One step away from being crowned King!

I don't hate him. I just think he went in an utterly wrong direction after the scores that come before, undoubtedly also because of an incompetent director.

So here's how I'm thinking about the initial score album now, look good? Howard Shore’s theme 01 The Rings of Power Main Title Concert arrangements 02 Galadriel - character theme for Galadriel - appears in episodes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 03 Khazad-dûm - location/culture theme for the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm - appears in episodes 2, 4, 5 - this arrangement used as end credits of episode 2 04 Nori Brandyfoot - character theme for Nori - appears in episodes 1, 2, 3, 5 05 The Stranger - character theme for The Stranger - appears in episodes 1, 2, 3, 5 - this arrangement used as end credits of episode 3 06 Númenor - location/culture theme for Númenor - appears in episodes 3, 4, 5 - this arrangement used as end credits of episode 4 07 Sauron - character theme for Sauron - appears in episodes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 08 Valinor - location/culture theme for Valinor - appears in episode 1 10 Elrond Half-elven - character theme for Elrond - appears in episodes 1, 2, 4, 5 11 Durin IV - character theme for Durin IV - appears in episodes 2, 4, 5 12 Harfoot Life - location/culture theme for the Harfoots - appears in episodes 1, 3 13 Bronwyn and Arondir - character theme for both Arondir and for Bronwyn - appears in episodes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 14 Halbrand - character theme for Halbrand and also a location/culture theme for The Southlands - appears in episodes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 18 Elendil and Isildur - character theme for both Elendil and Isildur as well as The Faithful - appears in episodes 3, 4, 5 21 Nolwa Mahtar - TBD 22 Nampat - character theme for Adar, also a theme for Orcs in general - appears in episodes 2, 3, 4, 5 32 The Mystics [0:00-3:11] - theme for The Mystics - appears in episodes 5 37 Where The Shadows Lie - theme for the rings themselves (and Ceremrimbor’s project) - appears in episodes 1, 2, 4, 5 - this arrangement used as end credits of episode 1 Episode 1 - A Shadow Of The Past 09 In The Beginning 15 The Boat Episode 2 - Adrift 16 Sundering Seas 20 The Secrets of the Mountain [0:00-0:27] Episode 3 - Adar 17 Nobody Goes Off Trail Episode 4 - The Great Wave 19 White Leaves 20 The Secrets of the Mountain [0:27-end] 23 A Plea to the Rocks Episode 5 - Partings 24 This Wandering Day 25 Scherzo for Violin and Swords 26 Sailing into the Dawn TBD (CD exclusive track) In Defiance of Death (Amazon exclusive track) Find The Light 27 For the Southlands (CD exclusive track) Riding At Dawn 28 Cavalry (Amazon/CD exclusive track) The Promised King 29 Water and Flame 30 In the Mines 31 The Veil of Smoke 32 The Mystics [3:11-end] 33 Perilous Whisperings (CD exclusive track) The Breaking of The First Silence 34 The Broken Line 35 Wise One 36 True Creation Requires Sacrifice

Here are a few examples - mic placement will have a big impact on the sound. For instance, Don Williams said he can tell if the engineer knows what they're doing by how close they have the timpani mic to the drum. Sometimes it will be just a few feet from the drum but some of the overtones are around twelve feet, so the sound of the drum won't be what you hear in the room because if the mic is three feet above the drum, it's not getting all the low frequencies! The resulting sound will be tight and emphasize higher overtones. This introduces a different challenge, mic bleed. You will get phasing issues if the timpani mic captures the bass drum (just as an example) so you want an assortment of mics with different recording patterns to minimize phasing issues. In addition, JW likes the mix to be in the room - meaning that the orchestra is already balanced and as long as the room is accurately captured, it should sound good. This means more reliance on the room mics like the decca tree and rear mics. That is a more classical approach and is not the trend today. Especially since lots of scores are striped - recorded in sections so only strings get recorded, then separately, only brass for example. Sometimes there is an A part and a B part of the strings, and the producer (er composer) can mix and match in post what part they use and how much of it. You can't do that in a room recording. It's also not unusual to record in different halls. I understand Pirates of the Caribbean did this so you might get the orchestra recorded in LA but the choir recorded in London and extra brass recorded their too then all mixed together. It's just an example of very different approaches and trends and they surely impact the final sound. I think the mic placement is an interesting one - I've mentioned this in other posts but sitting next to instruments is not the most interesting sound. They don't have their "true" characteristic sound up close. A powerful brass section might sound loud but tinny. Mics up close get more of that "tinny" sound. Generally, you mix the room with the spot mics to balance the issues each introduce. A double bass is very quiet up close but projects into the room and also has lots of subharmonic frequencies making other instruments sound louder (or fuller), these are examples of the complex considerations a mixer and engineer have to contend with. One other point that is worth mentioning - this is a chart of normal hearing loss with age. In short, the dark line at the top shows young people (in this sample 15-19 year olds) with normal hearing across all frequencies up to around 16,000 hz. 40 year olds will not hear above 14khz - the frequencies you hear drop as you age. By 70 there is almost 100% hearing loss above 10khz. So, though I have no insight to JW's hearing, the fact that he's 90, if we assume he has average hearing, he probably can't hear above about 6-8khz anymore. Include to that a lifetime of music which isn't great for hearing, it might not even be that good. It's worth pointing out that his hearing is probably better than anyone in that age, but the simple fact of his age generally impacts how good his hearing is and if he's the one approving final mixes, he's not hearing the nuances he once did. I think his engineers are all pros and know his sound well but as already mentioned, technology, styles and approaches change over time and what he might like now, might not be what he would have picked earlier in his career. Generally, instruments don't go near this high but there is a "sheen" or sparkle in those upper frequencies which he probably can no longer even hear though he knows is there. Just an opinion.

I feel like this and Mandolorian are good examples of when to deviate from the established sound. The problem is, all the other D+ shows are doing it too. Had they gone the full traditional route for Obi Wan (in a perfect world where it wasn't a low budget sci fi channel original) I don't think anyone would have cared that Andor doesn't sound like SW. As is, it's just another step into the generic modernizing of SW music

A modern Williams score for Batman probably would sound like a mix of WotW, Minority Report and Prisoner of Azkaban, but in the late 80s... Maybe something like Dracula and The Fury?