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Posts posted by Seth
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The more I think about this film the more I like it. It certainly wasn't the sugar-high that TFA was, but I thought it was very satisfying--in a more real way--in the end. I do have some quibbles--the chronology of this trilogy puzzles me, and I don't understand how the crawl could say that the First Order has conquered a large part of the galaxy already, given that this film picks up right at the end of TFA (overlapping it, in fact, depending on how you read the opening space battle). Snoke turned out to be a means to an end (Kylo Ren's further descent) rather than anyone of consequence in his own right, and I did think it was going to end three or four times before it actually did. I was relieved that Rey is a nobody--that decision was the right one. I just wish JJ Abrams didn't seem to get off so much on mystery for its own sake; it seems like Rian Johnson just wasn't interested in playing along with that stuff and decided to be rid of it. The Rose/Finn stuff didn't bother me, honestly; I thought their getting derailed was necessary to add tension to the middle part of the film, and the way that Johnson tied all his threads together in the buildup to Crait was really well-handled. The Resistance fuel plot already reminded me a little of the episode "33" from Battlestar Galactica's first season, and for me that extra element of Finn and Rose's side adventure helped make it something more its own. Plus I thought Rose was a really endearing character--not quite like anyone else in Star Wars, in her unbridled optimism and hopeful, innocent nature--so I appreciated getting to spend more time with her. I thought Luke got a really fitting send-off, and the scene where that happened was incredibly beautiful in its staging and cinematography. Speaking of, I think this is easily the best looking film in the series, with some really incredible design and cinematography. Mark Hamill really impressed me with how he moved through Luke's arc. I also think Domhnall Gleeson deserves some credit for making the most out of a character that is a bit superfluous, adding some dimension to an underwritten and poorly utilized part. So many moments in this film have stuck in my mind, certainly moreso than Rogue One or TFA.
With all that happened in this film, and how it ended, I find myself questioning whether Episode IX is really necessary. None of the major OT characters will be around, and I would be content if they just left it here, honestly. The only way it will really work, as far as I can tell, is if the JJ Abrams builds in a time jump, with the Resistance perhaps being built up beyond the 40 or so people who were crammed onboard the Millennium Falcon and with Rey being more firmly established in her knowledge of the Force. I expect the final film to come down to Rey and Kylo Ren fighting for all the marbles.
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Having seen the film and listened to the soundtrack for the first time, I don't think one time through is sufficient to completely absorb either one. After hearing the action music Williams wrote for this one, I really wonder if the streamlined sound of TFA really was more due to how that film was made rather than any independently-made creative decisions. I am stunned that at 85 he was able to write a score this vigorous. That's the best word for it, I think. It's so full of energy and sounds like it could have been written a decade ago rather than this year. The way the score follows every turn of the film (and some of those turns just whip right from one thing to another) is incredible considering his age. Wall-to-wall scoring isn't always a good thing, but it really didn't bother me in this case. I think the parts without music were well-chosen, and as far as I am concerned the rest of the film is perfectly able to support the amount of score it received.
I was surprised at how well the music was mixed in the movie, certainly better than TFA. I think his handling of Luke's final act was perfect--it made that part of the story incredibly enthralling. I think that assessment could actually go for how he scored Luke's entire arc. His use of Leia's theme was also handled better than some of the other recurring themes, especially early in the film when she was thrown into space. I think using the climax of the concert arrangement for her flight through space made the scene fantastically surreal rather than silly (your mileage may vary, of course). And I was so happy to hear that warm rendition of Luke and Leia's theme. I think someone else here said that Williams has finally got all he can get out of the Force theme, and I am inclined to agree. There's only so many times that theme can be played by a solo horn before it starts to be ignored. That said, though, there is one gigantic brass rendition of that theme (I think it underscored the burning tree and is on the album in The Sacred Jedi Texts--would have to see the film again to be sure) that I loved. As far as other recurring theme uses go, I thought the delicate statement of the main title at the end of the film was a beautiful moment. I was also surprised--pleasantly--to hear him write some wonderful variations on the Resistance march, which I didn't even think he would bring back. I think it's a shame that there isn't more Rey's theme on the album, considering that he did explore it throughout the movie.
I am looking forward to spending more time with score on album and seeing the film at least one more time to get a better sense of how it all hangs together.
2 hours ago, crumbs said:The amount of trumpet and brass flourishes in the film was incredible. Nobody writes for brass like Williams; the musicians must pinch themselves when they see the sheet music (then panic... and practice, practice, practice).
That's just it, though--there's no practice involved. They don't see the music until the day of the sessions. That's a fact that never ceases to blow my mind when it comes to Williams' more complex scores. This one certainly put them through their paces; no other film composer writes for trumpets as well as Williams, at least as far as I am concerned.
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Hopefully this won't get lost in all the back-and-forth of the impending release of The Last Jedi, but I was hoping to start a discussion of aspects of Williams' work and approach that might be underrated or not discussed as much as maybe they warrant. The topic was inspired while I was re-watching the Star Wars prequels
and noticed his approach to the dialogue scenes. I don't have any other strong examples of his dialogue underscoring close at hand, but his approach to the more talky scenes of these films struck me as unusually strong. One of the ones that stood out most (and always has) is the scene in Attack of the Clones where Anakin is finding out from the Lars family what has happened to his mother. The score, based on arpeggios in the strings that don't fully resolve harmonically, adds so much tension and a sense of dread that the dialogue and acting just aren't creating. His string voicings there are impeccable too, pitched in just the right range to work with the voice ranges of the actors without causing conflict. Revenge of the Sith is rife with smart dialogue underscore too, especially in nearly any scene involving Anakin and Palpatine before Anakin's fall, and the same applies to scenes of Anakin and Obi-Wan before their split. I also think his handling of the scene where Obi-Wan confronts Padme about Anakin's turn was handled just right, not overbearing melodically and with harmonic resolution coming at just the right point. The writing and acting in these films don't really generate any sense of tragedy or tension or drama, but the music does what everything else fails to do, mostly without resorting to histrionics to do it.
I really don't mean for this thread to turn into fanboy-ish gushing, but hope it turns into a good discussion of things Williams does that we just don't talk about that much or that we think of as underappreciated.
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9 minutes ago, karelm said:
There is also an unforgivable music edit in ESB for the added scene of Darth Vader leaving cloud city.
Yeah, that's one of the worst offenders to me. The music really drives the tension and drama of the heroes escaping, and Lucas destroyed all of that by cutting in the series of shots of Vader leaving Bespin and landing on the Star Destroyer. It's almost like he completely misunderstood why that part of the film works so well--it's the music and the editing that already existed. Didn't need anything. For all the times he's paid lip service to John Williams' contributions to Star Wars, I don't think he really understands or appreciates what Williams did for his films, especially in the prequels where I think Williams put in more effort than the movies probably deserved (though if one wanted to be really reductive about it I suppose you could say that about the entire series--and I say that as someone who admittedly is less objective about Star Wars than he possibly should be).
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3 hours ago, Jay said:
Which ones are the best?
I am quite partial to his take on As You Like It. Beautifully shot, a lovely Doyle score, and a surprisingly endearing performance by Bryce Dallas Howard.
You also can't go wrong with As You Like It; I like it and Whedon's equally well for different reasons.
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Thor: Ragnarok. I liked it more than I expected and was mainly interested because the trailers looked so bizarre. I thought it was easily the most enjoyable Marvel movie since the first Guardians, even it it does take a while to get going. I found the humor to be more genuine than is typical of Marvel; not quite as snarky as Guardians or as quippy as the Avengers. I have no clue what to make of whatever Cate Blanchett thought she was doing, but the rest of the cast was fine. I enjoyed the dynamic between Thor and Hulk/Banner and thought Mark Ruffalo and Chris Hemsworth had a fun rapport. So it's definitely not art, but I enjoyed it for what it is. Mothersbaugh's score seemed like it might be interesting enough for a separate listen; I'm sure there's enough material in there to make a nice 30-minute program.
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Do I have to pick? Because truthfully, aside from a couple of standout cues in each score, neither interests me much. I think "The Tale of Viktor Navorski" is a truly delightful concert arrangement, and "Jazz Autographs" is one of the most beautiful melodies he has written in this century, just a stunning tune that is emotionally direct without being saccharine or manipulative. I might even call it inspired. The score as a whole is not one I feel compelled to revisit, and I think it's been about 4 years since I listened to it. However, my issues with the score do not extend to the sound quality of the album. I think it's a wonderfully engineered recording.
I don't even know when I listened to Catch Me If You Can last, aside from the Escapades concert adaptation. I love the main title--it's clever, memorable, and perfectly orchestrated. I also have a very high opinion of "Recollections." It's such a lonely melody that is just right for encapsulating that particular relationship. I also admire the structure of the arrangement, with that languid middle section featuring the saxophone along with the bass. Gorgeous harmonies too. I much prefer this score in the context of Escapades, which I like for its handling of the saxophone with the orchestra, even though I think there are too many passages where the saxophone doubles the orchestra in ways that I think are superfluous. In my memory it's not an especially good recording. I don't know what was wrong with Shawn Murphy working for Williams that year, when Signs sounds so good.
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1 hour ago, The Doctor said:
Good. Good.
It wasn't a hard decision.
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14 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:
I still don't get where this is coming from where people keep thinking Williams is less likely to come back because of Abrams. Just because of the rewrites?
Well, that's certainly part of it for me. He'll be 87 by that point, after all, and I can't imagine a schedule like TFA being any more amenable in the future then it was in 2015. If I'm being honest, I also suspect his working relationship with Abrams wasn't as rewarding for him as it was for Abrams. Williams is too much the gentleman to say overly negative things about his collaborators, but it wouldn't surprise me if the process on TFA probably had too much fluctuation for his liking, especially for a composer who doesn't read scripts and likes to know where a film is going when he starts to write (or so I gather from some of his comments on other projects). If he is able, I really think he'll do Episode IX more out of duty than anything--I think he feels obligated to finish this trilogy. My hope is that having six extra months to write and plan will give Abrams time to be sure of the movie he is making from the start, and fuss with it less in the editing room. Not to go too far off-topic, but I think part of his reasoning for passing on Ready Player One was because he was planning on spending a large part of next year writing Episode IX, when Colin Trevorrow was still attached to direct.
1 hour ago, The Doctor said:There will be plenty of time and money to produce smaller independent films later.
I certainly hope you're right.
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Probably Rosewood. I never owned it prior to the 2 disc set and never connected with it. I also got rid of the original albums for Empire of the Sun and Home Alone after the expansions.
In terms of scores by other composers, the last scores I purged were Star Trek (Giacchino), Vertigo, and To Kill a Mockingbird. Maybe those last two make me a philistine, but I don't care. All I need of the Herrmann is the suite anyway.
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Aside from the fact that Disney seems to be putting a ton of effort into killing Star Wars through oversaturation, the worst part of this is the fact that it will keep Rian Johnson from doing his own thing. I have seen all of his films and thought Looper was a strong effort that really whetted my appetite for whatever he would do next. And now he is doing this instead of whatever weird thing he might have done next. Disappointing. It further solidifies my decision to check out of new Star Wars after Episode IX, though if Williams doesn't do that one my interest will decrease substantially. J.J. returning and the movie getting pushed back seem to make his involvement a little less likely, to me at least.
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1 hour ago, JohnSolo said:
Stranger Things, hands down. Neat, catchy theme, plus a cool visual intro of the main titles. A very otherworldly feel to it all, which fits the overall tone of the series like a glove.
This, hands down. But I also don't watch a lot of TV. It's a shame this doesn't cover the 2000s, because I would have much more to say. Fringe, for instance. A great theme tune and graphics that fit the show perfectly.
- John and Docteur Qui
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I'm really hoping it's a small score--small in length, small in scope, scored for a small ensemble. I hope Spielberg resisted the urge to make this a valorized, idealistic portrait of journalists and instead made a weary, cynical, film as might have been made in the early 1970s. My gut tells me Williams was probably forced to write a noble, vaguely stirring Americana score, but I would love it to instead be paranoid, jazz-inflected, maybe dominated by piano, like something by David Shire. Don't get me wrong, I'm pleased to have two new Williams scores coming this year, especially considering his age, but I expect to be moderately more surprised by The Last Jedi. I am really hoping Rian Johnson made a film that pushed him in interesting new-ish directions, something I don't think we should expect from his Spielberg scores anymore.
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On 9/22/2017 at 9:14 AM, Disco Stu said:
I still haven't watched any of this. Is it really that good?
No one is going to accuse it of being original, but it is certainly well-written and well-acted. And the more technical aspects are strong as well. I don't put much stock in the complaints that it didn't have an orchestral score, because I think the show is a little too slight to support that approach. The synths work just fine.
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17 minutes ago, Matt S. said:
Four words: Duel of the Fates.
(However, I think TFA is much better in the film itself, given the way TPM was hacked to bits. Also, The Jedi Steps and Finale tramples all over Augie's Great Municipal Band!)
See, I want to like Duel of the Fates. I just always come away thinking it is some of the least interesting material in a score where the new themes are weak and not applied in anything resembling a consistent manner (though who knows what the cut Williams spotted and wrote to looked like, compared to what was released). Duel of the Fates doesn't have much substance to it, and it isn't developed well at all, because there isn't enough to develop.
But yes, The Jedi Steps is probably tied for second-best finale after ESB (the tie is with Star Wars and maybe AOTC).
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Just now, Will said:Yeah, there's actually a recent interview with Johnson where he said that he sat down with the marketing people and told them what was off-limits for the trailer. So presumably the big secrets are still totally secret.
Good! I want to be surprised. I usually ignore what actors say about movies they are in, but I am starting to believe the Star Wars actors who have said this one is different, shocking, etc. For some reason I don't think they're blowing smoke.
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46 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:
Is this the part where I say Attack of the Clones is my favorite prequel score?
Some days I agree with you on that. It sits in a "gray" area aesthetically, for lack of a better word and that appeals to me.
On the matter at hand....TFA feels like a more focused score in terms of how it plays out. It has stronger thematic material (I am convinced that a large part of Rey's appeal is the music), and Williams got a lot of mileage out of that material. In a lot of ways I like the lean approach we got in 2015, but some of the underscore does sound a little anonymous. TPM is very extravagant, but never in an unbearable way. It is a Technicolor score, is the way I think of it. The colors are exceptionally vivid. I think TPM is better as a whole, but that doesn't mean I like it more.
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I don't remember TFA getting this kind of warning before it was rated. To be fair, though, TLJ does look like it will be more intense, comparatively speaking. Regarding the trailer, I found myself wondering if it is intentionally misleading. Surely Rian Johnson and whoever edited the trailer didn't mean to give away what appear to be major plot points. I will say that the look and tone the trailer points to made me wish Johnson was returning for the finale. I don't think it will be boring in any sense.
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19 minutes ago, The Doctor said:
Suburbia? That's Over the Moon.
Yes, I know. I was using the label from the liner notes. I've never connected the theme that closely with that arrangement. It has always been "Searching for E.T." to me.
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24 minutes ago, Fal said:
I think the suburbia is that theme that opens the film version of Michael's Search
That Stargazers theme has never been a favourite of mine, probably because it sounds to close to the Susan and Doug theme from Towering Inferno to me.
Oops! I was unclear. I meant that my favorite theme is Suburbia or the other one.
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Man, that alternate version of Far From Home / E.T. Alone is really interesting. The high tuba writing is a neat texture, but I think it would have been a little out of place in the film. The music that I imagine was intended to underscore the spaceship's departure is too understated, so I understand why the cue was revised, but it has a such a different emotional undercurrent that I would very much like to see a video replacing the existing music with the alternate (and if I knew how I would do it myself). The music as it is in the film is one of finest stretches of underscore he has ever written--probably my favorite part of the entire score. The last time I watched the film it occurred to me that the score in that sequence plays the perspective of the characters, primarily that of E.T. of course, but I really think that the sweeping brass statements that play under the ship's lift-off are meant to musically delineate the point of the view of the government agents, before shifting back to E.T. as it recedes.
I actually have to agree with Jay and anyone else who is a little unpersuaded by the 1982 album. I should admit that I had actually never heard that album before this year, and I don't necessarily feel like I missed out. E.T. is a case where I don't think the most famous theme is the best one in the score (my own favorite is probably what Matessino labels the "Suburbia" theme, or the melody that was expanded into the "Stargazers" arrangement). So the 1982 album suffers a little by having too much of the flying theme, for me anyway. The score as a whole has one of the most satisfying and most clear dramatic arcs he has ever accomplished, so I actually do prefer to hear it in its complete form. It's funny, but the new album has really raised my appreciation of the score; for a long time I recognized its greatness as a film score but found it difficult to listen to as a standalone work (in the 2002 release, which is all I had prior to the LLL set). For some reason it clicked with me this time, possibly due to the fact that I had the opportunity to see E.T. in concert over the summer and really notice how much the music inhabits the film and feels like the whole thing was conceived together, almost like Williams had written the score alongside the film's production instead of after it was cut together.
- Ricard, The Illustrious Jerry and Jay
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9 minutes ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:
Mine too, along with Whedon's Much Ado.
Finally! Someone else who likes that one. I would rather Whedon and his pals do more Shakespeare than have him waste his time on comic book adaptations (yes, I think his Avengers films are mostly garbage; some of the Marvel films I have enjoyed for what they are, but the first Avengers is much overpraised and the sequel is just a waste of time.)
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I've always thought E.T. was one of the best-recorded Williams scores, and this edition confirms that for me. It has to be one of the best all-around performances by an LA session orchestra, too. Of course they routinely do really good work, but E.T. feels like music they lived with before it was recorded, rather than just spending a week with it for the scoring sessions. One of the things that really struck me--out of nowhere--on listening to this is how great the percussion sounds, especially the brighter things like triangle and glockenspiel. The brass are present without ever being painful at their loudest or highest, and there's an incredible amount of detail to be heard, even though the orchestrations aren't always as intricate as something like a Star Wars or Indy score. @Jay, I haven't had a chance to fully absorb the notes yet, but it looks like Mattessino read my mind and really broke the score down for the booklet. I am really excited about his CE3K, whenever that comes along.
Hmm. I had never heard Botanicus before. It's definitely related to the film score, but I think I may have heard a bit of Debussy in the orchestrations. Interesting.
THE LAST JEDI - Score as heard in the movie thread - SPOILERS ALLOWED
in JOHN WILLIAMS
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I haven't heard that. Interesting. But yeah, everything about the brass in this score is faultless, from the writing to the performing to the recording and mixing. Perfectly handled.