charlesk

Thanks, I was educated in a catholic school and I know the Bible very well. I also investigated interpretations and scientific studies, theories and hypothesis and original uncensored Biblical texts about what really could have happened in those days. And I'm also familiar with the theories mentioned (linked) by Melange, and I'm pretty sure they are accurate. It's a shame nobody dares to raise the subject. Thanks Jeshopk for your review, it makes me feel more curious to go see what it seems to be some piece of cinema that at least has some sort of a story and character arc.

What I meant, guys, is that this is a movie about no other than Jesus. A large percentage of people are programmed from infancy to care for this character. They could have used Saddam Hussein to play Jesus, and people will still care for the character. Making people care for the main character is the one of the most important parts in the success of a movie. With themes like Passion, their work is already done by history and religious education. It?s not like the standard movie where you just sat there and in minutes the directors has to make you care for a character you just met, or else the movie is a failure. With Passion, most people cares for the character even before the movie begins, is like profiting in a sequel from a successful movie. Also, I haven?t seen the movie yet, and I?ll see it, but from what I?ve heard, The Passion depicts very graphically and in all its gruesome the tortures that a person accused of a crime and having death sentence had to endure 2000 years ago. What?s the point? That was normal at that time. Those people saw those punishments everyday. They were closer to death, closer to sickness, closer to war than we?ve ever been. It?s grotesque in today?s standards, and especially grotesque in the civilized world. We could follow Gibson?s ?artistic? lead and remake Gladiator showing in great detail and realism how women and children were eaten alive by lions in Rome for people?s amusement. Or make a movie about the Inquisition that will only show in extreme detail the many sophisticated tortures that the ?heretics? endured for weeks in the basement of churches. Or make a movie of Joan of Arc, for instance, but skip the real content and all that bull and go directly to the burning part, and show for two hours how they prepared everything and how is it to be burned alive. What?s the point? It has a point from a forensic point of view? A forensic recreation of a crime? The Passion has some point for a non-catholic besides just showing how a man was tortured 2000 years ago? Has anybody here who said the movie was ?revealing? can tell me if for a non-christian is there anything more in that movie than two hours of torture, because that alone cannot be ?revealing? for me.

I am personally not fond of movies that profit from historical/religious backgrounds as a way to more easily 'touch' their target audiences by revolving into sad events and make them as visual and emotive as it can possibly be done by cinematic manipulation. Yes, along with Passion, I have to include Schindler's List, Amistad, Titanic and Braveheart, among many more. I'm not saying these movies have no merits on their own, but these topics certainly are likely to predispose a large percentage of the target audiences to expect to be moved and touched. I think from the director's point of view is more difficult to reach audiences on fictional events, on unsympathetical topics or characters, in domestic and small issues not related to factual events. When you can take a guy like me, who went to see A.I. expecting a funny movie about a little robot boy in a hypotetical fictional future, and make me end up confused, touched without knowing how, thinking that there is much of the content that I missed and I have to see the movie again and think about it for weeks... well, that's a feat of cinema... These characters never existed or will exist, neither this world, neither was I expecting to be moved, the main character was a machine, yet I got involved and moved. Sorry, but any director can show footage of the holocaust and make people cry, any director can show the gore and torture of the barbaric punishments in the times of Jesus and make people cry. It's like a horror movie scaring people with the sudden sight of a horrific monster, coupled with great loud sound effects and scary music. But can you scare people without showing anything at all? That's a feat very few can do. Same with emotions, can you make people cry and be moved without showing actual torture, without using a historical background, with a main character you just met minutes ago? That's not as easy, and thus I tend to respect more the directors that succeeded doing it.

Wait.... you are giving such an opinion of a movie you haven't seen yet? Don't you think that even for you, this is too much fanatism? CharlesK - who will give an opinion after seeying the movie.

I have it already, plus the original (Yeah, Justin 8O ). This is one of the few occasions of listening Williams doing a genre that borders in horror. There are genius cues of fantastic tension and wonderful 'family' themes. Shame on any jwfan that doesn't have it

Poor Goldsmith.... even when he's sick people seem to ignore him...as well as the topic of his threads... Get well, Goldsmith :cry:

You know that's true. It seems like everyone (except me of course ) says that Zimmer is overated... Justin - Zimmer is overrated, Justin, get over it. People tend to associate good filmmusic composing with good films. If the film was cool, then they say the music was cool. If we check why we like John Williams, we'll find in this forum that many of the music people hear, they haven't even seen the movie, or have forgotten about it, or don't see it too much (I like Spacecamp and Dracula, for instance ). That's a feat for a composer, having fans remembering what he dreams to forget.

I know Wound Dresser, Fiery Angel, it came in the Earbox 10-CD anthology set. Really touching. I did study music formally, and classical piano, however at some point I had to decide where to continue and I went with my more natural talent which is engineering. But music remainded my more 'serious' and 'professional' hobby. Frosty, Fiery Angel, you guys are lucky

I came to know about John Adams with Morn, as mentioned earlier, in a discussion like this one, about how much Matrix is like Harmonielehre. After a few days, Harmonielehre really got into me, to the point that I became an instant Adams fan. Although Adams is not as much a minimalist anymore, he still tends to keep harmonies at 'minimal' changes, evolving his pieces in rhythm and rich orchestrations. His music requires either a lot of attention or no attention at all to be enjoyed. In the attention mode, you enjoy how this little simple ideas evolve in increasing little simple changes into a level of amazing complexity. In the no attention mode, you just let go and allow yourself to be hypnotized but the pulsating character of the music. For me, Harmonielehre is his yet unsurpassed masterpiece. I especially love part 1 with its anguished Herrmannesque strings and the rocket take-off that ends it. Part 2 is deeper, in the sense that Holsts Saturn is, and in part 3, the strings assume a dreamy lyricism in the Ravel style. I'm buying everything Adams does. Many of his works are very cinematic, like El Dorado, an orchestral crescendo that could very well be used for a commando type of action and his operas are very cinematic also. From his latests works Naive and Sentimental music begins quite peacefully and ''naive", only to build into a powerful caos of amazing arrhythmias, which I suspect are quite difficult to play. His oratorio about Jesus' nativity "El Niño" is an amazing choral work, I daresay one of the best oratorios ever written (no easy music, though!). I think Adams is a true successor of Stravinsky in terms of his contribution to music based on complex rhythmic ideas and the exploration of textures by using the resource of extremely rich orchestrations. And Adams is doing so, introducing as well elements of american music: filmmusic, jazz, rock. I am waiting for a CD release including his Guide to Strange Places and On the Transmigration of souls... if anyone has recorded there, please let me know !

Two women kissing or two men kissing is not bizarre. This is my contribution to the bizarre kissing thread: And how about this one: "Oh, this is disgusting"- says the Pig.

Ok, first Wael's avatar, now this.... I won't be able to read Jwfan at my workplace anymore :oops:

Oh, no... that means that after Williams Spielberg will hire Zimmer (I mean, hire the guys that really work in the name of Zimmer)? What will be a dark day in the history of cinema.

Umm...maybe George Lucas' peculiar swollen throat is for too much doing certain activity...

The bicycle pedaling string motif, is Hanson's beginning of the 3rd movement of his Sym #2, to which it was applied a metric change, in what Stravinsky called "meters subjected to the principle of variation". In Hanson's own recorded version, there is also a trumpet motif, best heard at 3:51, which is a minor variation of the trumpet motif used for the government agency guys during the chase. At 5:09, Hanson reaches a tension moment with strings and woods playing a syncopated rhythm, which is the same we hear in ET when he is concentrating to levitate the bikes. Similarly, this tension explodes in a reexposition of the theme in Hanson symphony. The theme continues, then stops to absolute silence (6:00), to begin a crescendo with ascending notes in cello and horns (6:18) which in this case are the same as those used in similar crescendo when the spaceship begins soaring. At 6:46 there is a fanfare quite similar to ET's part when spacewhip leaves the rainbow, followed by similar silence, and the explosive ending. Now I want you honest opinion about this: would do dare as a composer to inspire yourself so tighly from another? I called 'blatant' because there was in this case not a huge effort to make it undistinguishable from its inspirative source. My definition of blatant is 'obvious' (As in Encarta "very obvious: so obvious or conspicuous as to be impossible to hide"). I would use 'shameless' for Zimmer or Horner. But Williams used it anyway because it fitted perfectly. It's not like he only changed a few notes so they won't need to pay copyrights to the original composer. He did a huge work, amazing, deserving of every accolade it got. Yet, in response to the critic made by Blue Mule, yes, it has parts of rip-offs, some of which pretty obvious, but that doesn't make him a bad composer and judging a compose because he uses material from others is just plain dumb.

My statement would easily explain by itself if: 1) You are really a musician, as you claim 2) You DO listen to Howard Hanson's Romantic Symphony from beginning to end and compare with ET not only the motifs, but also the structure and orchestration in the ending of both works In this particular case, it is VERY similar in musical terms. However, the theme is changed by the ET theme (although some say ET theme is a Korngold quartet, I still need to find it). But I still respect Williams as a composer, because a good composer is more than structure and orchestration. Those can be taught and learned.

If you buy classical music Cd's from a reputable recording company such as EMI or Deustche Grammophone, read the CD boolets about the piece. Most of the reviews tell about the influence of the piece. Two examples read recently: Richard Strauss quoting Beethoven's 3rd funeral march inhis Methamorphosen, Palestrina's influence in Bach's B Minor Mass, Bach's B Minor mass influence in Mozart's Requiem, Mahler's influence in Shostakovich, etc. One composer influencing other is the way to be. What it makes a good composer from a non-so good one is he only produces works that make no improvement on the influences it has. I think that this is undisputably not the case with Williams.

HEHE, I think this guy is mistaking John Williams the composer with John Williams the guitarrist LOL

Yeah, Williams does blatant rip offs sometimes. His Oscar winning ET is a rip off of Korngolds strings quarter and Howard Hanson's Romantic Symphony. It's all there, the bycicle theme, the bad guys brass theme. The ending of ET is structurally, harmonically identical to Hansons ending of this symphony same pauses, everything. Williams only changed the theme. Starwars is a lot of Shostakovich, Stravinsky, etc. Much of the love themes are Tchaikowsky. Parts of AI sound like John Adams. Catch me if you can is Berstein and Mancini. Etc. etc. etc. This can go on forever... but: John Williams added his spirit to this music, and the combination is superb, most times better than the original. He adds beauty, richness, complexity, he updates, he makes accesible, he adds, enhances. And that's why we all love him and his music, despite this and other criticism. Ultimately, a composer needs to touch the audience with his spirit in order to succeed; and he does. He could just be conducting a note-by-note piece of somebody else, it's John Williams. John Williams is more famous than other film composers, because in part he invented the custom of buying and listening to film scores separated from the movie. It was in part luck? Yes. But he kept improving, challenging himself. Even when he wrote for a TV movie, he did something of the quality of Jane Eyre. Ultimately he has rejuvenated the habit of listening to complex, orchestral music, and at least in my case, opened the doors of 500 years of amazing music, without which I would be less than I am now. So, John Williams haters... get over it.

Umm, David Arnorld is not there... That's what you get to make so many James Bond movies

Hi. I dont know anything really about Conducting. I'm just a perverted Voyeur from afar, watching the amazing facial displays and emotion being played out by conductors. And i'm only guessing that what you refer to is something i've noticed too. I mentioned that wonderful DVD from Amazon earlier in the year, which i purchased. Showing black and white footage of many of the differing styles of different conductors. One other great DVD i have is of a performance of Mozart's Coronation Mass in the Vatican in the mid 1980's. Conducted by Herbert Von Karajan (spelling?). I always noticed that he was always one step ahead, and often thrust his hands down and jutted his jaw out a little before something took place to signify he really wanted this choral bit to go "OOOMPH"...lol. In a passage referring to Pontius Pilate and the sentencing of Jesus, Karajan's face is really in there with the emotion. Gripping stuff. Even a twist of the fist and gritting of the teeth at one point, where the great choral "Crucifi" begins. Wonderfully gripping. If anyone is wondering which bit i'm referring to, its in the CREDO section of the mass. Hehe, I have that DVD too. Indeed, the conductor anticipates the music. It's kind of weird but necessary. When you see it, you realize that the only way for this to work is when the orchestra keeps the tempo, the conductor indicates the inflection and the changes. Also very visible in Karajan is that he signals the ending of the phrases. It reminds me of my piano teacher. In every difficult passages, every time I failed it was because I was not finishing the previous phrase before attacking the next one. My teacher would say at the end of the phrase, very loud, 'finish! finish!', then he would force me to wait a long pause, in silence, to make me feel the division, then attack into the next phrase with a renewed breath. In the actual performance, this division or pause is almost unperceivable, but if the musician 'sees' the pause in his mind, the passage comes out with the virtuosistic comfort and character of a great interpreter. Complete properly, to begin right.

Ender and Neil agreed in a Superman topic???

If you liked Barry's abduction listen to Penderecki's Threnody (yeah, for the purist, the full title includes '...for the Victims of Hiroshima' and blah, blah, blah) and Ligeti's requiem. I find them very resemblant of Williams. However, for scary, for some reason the crescendo on The Moon rising in AI, with deep choir is very scary for me. The Omen, of course. However, The Omen is a continuation of some ideas in John Barry's The Lion in Winter. CE3K has some of the scariest action cues in Williams. Oh, and Herrmann's Psycho, but it has been mocked so much, that not only produces smiles of recognition.

Some antivirus are worst than viruses. I had to disable McAfee because it keeps interrupting my recording sessions with notifications and stuff. Its window takes the focus in the middle of whatever you are doing. Also, at times you feel you PC slow, and when checking the task manager, its the AV software making a general disk check... when you are working!!!

For the zillionth time, it's Harmonielehre!

Read the full "John Adams interviewed by John Walters" here: http://www.earbox.com/frames-html/intervie...iew-frames.html