charlesk

Great Uni, I agree! That's why I say: "if it is important enough for you"

Hehe, with that screenname and the content of that post, I'm inclined to think this MaestroJW might be Williams himself, or his son Williams scores didn't get rejected. Parts of them... many times. Williams knows his place in a movie, and re-scored to the director satisfaction. It's about empathy and flexibility. And about being humble. Good for Williams!

I wonder very much how this "rejection" thing could ever happen... I mean, I've seen Williams/Spielber collaborations, Williams doesn't just write all parts and surprises Spielberg at the recording studio with the final result. Williams presents the themes in piano, they discuss them and Spielberg approves them before continuing. Like another actor, the film composer needs to be directed in order to convey in music what the director wants, because, at the end, a movie is the vision of the director, interpreted by the rest. If that were the case, if a test audience dislikes the score, then the failure is from both the composers and the director, not the composer only. In this case, the director didn't hear and approve any themes or sketches, or he did and disliked them but said nothing. I mean, is the whole Goldsmith score bad in such way that you prefer reescore it completely, at a big extra expense? No. I think if the director dislikes some music approaches, he could ask for changes and the composer would do them, like Williams did. We are aware of many bits of Williams that didn't make it to the movie, or had to be changed, and Williams did it. This is a problem of communication guys, between the director and the composer. I'm afraid that Goldsmith must be a difficult guy to work with. He either refuses to reescore, or refuses to make sketches for approval, or he walks out like a temperamental diva at the first suggestion. Or he probably sits in his ass for weeks without doing nothing, unnerving the producers, and appears at the last minute with something that is too obviously dull and improvised. In my last post I was thinking of the poor composer, but the ones who pay money for this failure are the producers. Maybe there are two sides to this thing.

I'm sorry to hear that, Cypher. I sometimes wonder what would happen if someone from the past like Da Vinci came to the present and see that though we made big flying machines and made air travel a common thing, many airlines are being administered as a rural bus.

You're trying to "disuade" them? Oh, THAT'S why I wasn't being successful. I corrected the typo. Thanks!

I was shocked today to learn about a composer called Howard Hanson. The third movement of Hanson's Symphony No.2 "Romantic" was used in a way I would never dare by Williams to provide first and second rythmic ideas for the Bikes in ET (strings, brass), as well as the very famous development of ET's ending, which is structurally identical (yeah, I mean the part where you cry). Hehe, so good that few people knows Hanson. But anyway, Williams touch adds much to the original Hanson's idea.

I'm trying to persuade the REAL composers and music theorists to make contributions (Ocelot, it IS you). One thing is to know what's going on, another is to make the excercise of putting in simple words these things. I'm learning a lot doing it. I thank all your comments, guys. I didn't expect this. Next will be Superman's Love theme, Jim's New life (empire of the sun) and Fawke's theme (this last one will be a challenge to explain for its unusual theme structure). I've been trying first the concert versions, since they have a more traditional structure. Action cues do not have it necessarily, but those that score well made sequences end-up structured for non-musical reasons (?!). I'll hear requests. Thanks again

Ren, nobody judges loyalties, this is not the inquisition. You can be a great fan and decide that it is not that important to travel to London to meet Williams. You might meet him closer, sooner, anyway. What it bothers me is the excuse. What I mean is that I believe in the power of perseverance and commitment, not just for going to London to see a man agitating a stick to a bunch of musicians, but for any goal or dream that is important enough for us to dedicate the required amount of energy. We tend to hide behind fast excuses that cannot stand one minute of logical examination: a) "I have no money" B) "I have no time" c) "It really doesn't interest me much" d) All of the above If we defend these lame excuses, eventually we will believe they are real. The first step is unmask them. Meeting John Williams is not important; we do that every day listening to his music. Meeting other jwfan members is not important; we do that every day in this forum. What is really important is the experience that you can set yourself a goal and achieve it, no matter how difficult it seems to be... if it is important for you, commit, persevere, allow zero excuses, and you will succeed.

You are absolutely right, s-hands! Thank you!

Hymn to the Fallen, from Saving Private Ryan (Total time 6:12) This time Williams is required to write a Hymn. It is so easy to get into clichés on these things. A hymn has to be a simple tune, yet powerful and inspirational. So Williams used a single tune, repeating it without transposing to different keys, without changing rhythm, without introducing new themes, and extends it for over 6 minutes while your attention not only doesn?t fade, but actually increases! Now, how in hell he accomplishes that? For starters, this ?single tune? is a very long one. Williams had to smoke an egg roll to come out with a inspiring, lyrical and expressive original tune that lasts 1:07 minutes. Now, start your watch and wait in silence for 1:07 minutes to get an idea how long this is for a simple theme. The theme itself can be analyzed, since it is composed of two ideas of different character: one timid, the other bold. The first idea, the timid one begins (0:23) in chorus and woodwinds, and repeats (0:40) to lead to the second bolder idea (0:55), which repeats as well (1:18). Note that you can almost imagine the unspoken verses: two verses for the first timid idea, and two more for the bolder one, with their respective pauses after each paragraph. Throughout the theme, instruments in the orchestra sum up little by little, like people summoning up to the chant. The brass plays a variation of the theme (1:44), here brass instruments are treated like a chorus, a capella (playing solo). Since the theme is going to be re-exposed twice, this variation is very important to make the piece less monotonous. (2:44) The theme appears again in chorus, the timid part almost exactly the same as before, but the bold part gets even bolder, and gains impetus, not in speed -which remains unaltered- but by the resource of playing faster notes in the accompanying strings. The full orchestra slowly awakes to play the theme again (3:57), chorus plays the theme almost unaltered helped by the reinforcement provided by the brass that plays along with them, while strings gain power with their accompaniment in rich and joyful fast notes. The climax is achieved by stressing a new high note in the theme (4:39) that hasn?t heard before. Orchestra subdues, and woodwinds (5:01) play part of the variation introduced before by the brass. The song ends exactly as it began... Resuming: one theme, a variation in brass, two re-expositions, the second one with a climaxing note. Seems easy...if only it was easy to come up with SUCH a theme!

The Chamber of Secrets (Total time 3:49) This piece is structured in a theme with variations. It begins with 12 seconds of accompaniment, which require a mention of their own. This accompaniment is exactly the same rhythm idea used as accompaniment for ?Fawkes The Phoenix?, but his time is in a minor key instead of Fawkes? mayor one. For those who don?t understand the difference of minor vs. mayor musical chords, sufficient to say that mayor chords sound ?happy, noble, festive?, while minor chords sound ?sad, nostalgic, evil?. This is per se an amazing phenomena since the only difference between a 3-note mayor and minor chord is just one note. The mayor/minor use with same rythm is particularly important because by doing this Williams is identifying the representative of good in the movie as Fawkes, and the Chamber of Secrets as its opposite evil. Musically we understand that the battle is among the two, Harry in the middle, deciding for either side. Strings keep accompanying, while woodwinds introduce a short version of the CoS theme, the only theme of the whole piece. The theme is shortly made into a variation (0:27), played by celesta. Horns take over (0:53) for a full rendition of the theme. Then it comes a second variation (1:19) of theme A, in strings and woodwinds. The third variation (1:46) introduces the trumpets/oboe playing the variation, while strings accompany in fast notes. In a very interesting orchestral twist, roles are reversed and now the accompanying strings take over (2:07) in the voice of this fourth variation, while the winds and brass accompany in fast notes similar to those played by the strings before (God, I love this part!). This lead to the explosion of variation five (2:26), and variation six (2:41), which marks the climax. The theme and its variation subdues now as it began, not without a little surprise (3:40) so people will know that the song has finished and will applaud.

Hedwig?s Theme (Total time 5:09) This piece, as I see it, is an orchestral suite composed of three themes, which are varied in different styles of orchestrations. Let?s begin. Music starts with a single instrument, celesta, playing a simple ?solo? rendition of Hedwig?s theme (theme A). Strings fade in flying accompanying patterns, while horns repeat theme A (0:46), complete and unaltered. At this point, a contrasting idea is required, and Williams introduces a theme B (1:34), which in character is very different from the former one. Alternating pacific/aggressive, feminine/masculine themes is a very common practice in composition. Just like it happened with theme A, theme B is first introduced very simply, in a ?solo? mode played by woodwinds. The theme is repeated now (1:47) by same section, but accentuated by trumpets while violent low strings accompany them. A variation of Theme B is now played in solo celesta (1:59) and just as before, the variation is repeated, but now with strings accentuating the celesta (playing at unison ?same notes). After a short transition, a full orchestra version of theme B is played (2:31). The path is now ready for introducing a third theme, theme C (2:46), which contrary to the last one is more lyrical, but dramatic, played in strings with full orchestra accompaniment. A short transitional passage (3:01-3:11) leads in a re-exposition of theme B in full orchestra, immediately followed by a re-exposition of theme C (3:27), in a different key, and slightly different orchestration. Most noticeable difference is how the brass imitates the last notes of the theme played by strings (3:31), a detail that seems to have been overlooked by William Ross in a similar passage in the Prologue for CoS. Almost for the sake of balance, theme B is repeated again, now in brass only (3:46). A transitional passage (4:00) prepares the path for the finale. Here, like the call for battle, a shortened theme A reappears, passing from horns to trumpets to wooding, like contaminating the whole orchestra with its notes, to explode in the finale? A full orchestra variation of theme A (4:18), now orchestration and rhythm in the style of a crazy and exuberant waltz, in a style quite adequate and reminiscent to ?The Sorcerer?s Apprentice? by Paul Dukas. There it is: only three themes, one of them opens and closes the piece (theme A), and extended along 5 minutes of variations across several instrumental groups. So simple, yet so powerful.

I have found lately that several members like to study Williams' works, and some even attempted at composition. It is sad to know that few have received adequate musical education. Not that I received much musical education myself, but it might be very instructive to try to 'deduce' what Williams does in his compositions, in a way that will help the hobby composers in the board to have a better clue on how to structure a work. For the ones not interested in composition, this could help them listen to the music in a different way. So, little by little, I would like to collect here analysis of particular Williams songs, in a plain, no-nonsense language. I hope the musicians will feel free to contribute. Please, keep language simple, and always use time guides in minutes and seconds, to mark the different parts of the piece. Thanks Charles

Bye Stefan, and please do this more frequently

Oops...in 2005, Williams will be...how old? :cry: He's right. If we guys cannot squeeze in our budget the provisions for an event that is going to happen in two years, maybe that event is not that important for us. If we, together, can't find in two years the means to do this, maybe we are not worthy of breathing the same air with a guy like Williams. Yeah, London seems a good gathering place for a bunch people distributed between America and Europe. Sorry for the aussies, but Australia is far from everywhere else, anyway. Come on, let's plan this!

But, Ross, forgive me if I remind you... but you are a nerd. Maybe the films could use a better budget, but Star Trek as a whole has presented a world of very interesting stories, most of them thought-provoking about several cultural, moral, religious and ethical issues. Many of the things that interest you (and you should feel fortunate and proud of this). Charles

If this rumor is true, I truly, deeply feel bad for Goldsmith. Whatever is happening to him, bad luck, or truly lack of inspiration, it may be devastating for a composer. It has to be so difficult to depend on something as subjective as people's reception to you work, or on something uncontrollable and evasive as inspiration. Charles :cry:

For the Prequel advocates I think prequels were fun, yes. But the Original Trilogy also had a spirit. Maybe it was something that could only be felt by that generation, or maybe is timeless; but the true fact is that the Prequel trilogy didn't have the same effect in youth that the OT had. SW was a cultural phenoma. The prequels are just fun movies. They didn't renew the cultural effect the OT had. Kids that got to know SW from the Prequels were not as impacted as our generation was with the OT. At least not in the same numbers. Those who can't understand simple statistical facts like these, should not get their silly arguments dignified with an answer, especially if they insist in remaining in anonymity, in an already quite anonymous forum. Charles

If I could vote, I would do it for "Yes, I'll see it just to finish with this whole ordeal" Charles

Hehe, I thought it was only an experiment. You are not a real director looking for free music, are you? Again, I am not a film composer, but I'll do my best, so you won't have to go through the ordeal of finding someone you age that you like. You almost described me. Except for the Menken part which I don't fully get yet I hope someday to be worthy enough to receive this inspirational part. Hehe, a comedian as ever, Ross. Such irony, such sarcasm. You really have talent for this Isn't that some lyrics from Tim Rice's Chess musical? But now, honestly, I'm very flattered Ross, thank you. I'm sure you'll make very good films and I'll be proud to do my best scoring them. But it's not convenient that you do me too much publicity. I might get many requests from others and I would have to raise my salary, so keep quiet, shhhh CharlesK- who continues being dumb enough, and loves it ------------ "When you have so many people you've never met on your buddy list, it means there's a void in your life" - ROSS WORINSKY

Oh, crap, they took me for schoolbus... Neil and Justin, I can stop by with Ren in New Jersey and Ohio to say goodbye to you, folks! Charles

Aarrgggh! The Gremlins, Justin! That hurts, and it wasn't for me...

No problem, I'll make a stop in Maine first and I'll pick you up with your ticket to London, Ren!!!

Shall I take Ocelot's and Stefanco's comments above as indirects that you don't like The Patriot score at all?

Hehe, don't misunderstand me. I love Goldsmith, he was the first one who got me interest in film music, Williams was second. Only that ET is pure Williams (don't touch it!!! ) And The Patriot is a good score. Just listen how emotionally effective are Williams strings at 2'10 of "Redcoats at the Farm and the Death of Thomas", ascending in oppressive harmonies, as the main character reaches the emotional turning point of the story. And Neil, is not for sleeping, "Tavington's Trap", "Martin Vs. Tavington" have thrilling moments of action, with a style reminiscent of A.I. and Minority Report. But of course, if you only listen to the 'farm' music...yes, of course is boring, but if you ever find a 'thrilling', 'exciting' farm, let us know CharlesK - NP: "The Hunt" from Goldsmith's Omen III: The Final Conflict.