charlesk

This is again the topic about if the music should stand by itself or not to be a 'good' film music. It depends on the movie. Some movies are less "musical" than others. Star Wars was conceived as a musical movie and Williams music stood up. Howard Shore work generally does not stand by itself, and in the case of LOTR, I think it should. LOTR is an epic story, few dialog, the treatment of director Jackson is evocative, magnificent, etc. This type of movie should have a score that 'stands up by itself', an epic score. With all due respect, I'm very curious what Williams could have done with LOTR. Williams is very good at dark themes, and he's unparalleled in magnificence and heroism. Can you imagine, right now we would have 6+ hours of Williams epic style music!

I finally saw the movie (TTT). I was quite impressed with the action sequences. In this movie, my praise goes to the technical, special effects achievement and art design and makeup. As for direction, Jackson manages again to keep you in the chair for three hours, but this time, just barely, and only thanks to the impressive action sequences. At some points the movie lagged with redundant emotivity that actors couldn't convey and the dialog and score didn't support. Love scenes were plainly boring and devoid of real emotion. And if I had to see another helicopter circular aerial shot around the characters running through the mountains of New Zealand I would scream of pain. Jackson is overdoing these shots. But hands down, the biggest achievement is from special effects, both artistically and technically. Technically, for the realistic action sequences, realistic Gollum and his interaction with human actors (more difficult than it appears), interaction of CGI with water, etc. Artistically, Gollum again. Gollum's character is very complex, he's a psychopath with multiple personalities and monologues that would challenge a seasoned actor. It was very well done and Gollum is probably the best actor in the movie. Spielberg would have his imagination soaring, Lucas would be in rage his own company couldn't do better in his movies (and maybe planning to redo all CGI characters. LOL).

Howard Shore as surprised his audiences with an epic score. However, his treatment is effectist, and TTT score left me unimpressed. He reuses the same motifs introduced before, with no new memorable ideas. Whoever compares Williams with Shore at the same level is a jerk. Even Shore would agree. (Williams would politely say nothing) The author of the article is obviously subjective and a musical deaf. The LOTR movies are very good indeed, that doesn't mean the score is so excellent as well. Frightening, creepy, bombastic is not synonymous of 'excellent score'.

Howard Shore should never take the place of Williams in his own Forum. I like to comment LOTR movies, but that's why we have the Other Topics. Please me mindful of where you post these things.

Actually, I gave a try to the original recording of the Love theme, which always sounded "older" among other songs in my compilation CDs. I used Cool Edit to try filters and reverb. It seems the recoding is too dry, like done in a small room, pretty similar to the sound of Star Wars EpIV. I added a medium auditorium reverb effect, and now it perfectly melts with other songs. The same thing happened with Raiders, for instance, trumpets in The Map Room were too strident, and that was because they seem to have been recorded in a small room. When reverb is added, the sound dilutes, the bass improves and it sounds more magnificent. Thank you for the suggestions of alternate versions of the Love Theme. I'll seek them out as well. I'm also happy I've never heard the version with lyrics. Do you imagine Celine Dion singing it? banghead censored 8O

I just saw this interview with Spielberg: http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.ht...2/18/12.00.film Which doesn't say much more that Indy 4 having a "supernatural element". Duh. Hasn't all Indy's?

longh0rn, we don't get the "rush of excitement" with these movies special effects because they are not breakthrough in any sense. I remember having a rush of excitement when they first displayed the shark in Jaws, swimming next the boat. That was an achievement at that time, and is still more intinidating today than other CGI versions of sharks I've seen. And the story and script were awesome. Also got excited with Star Wars and Empire special effects. Then it was ET. Even when we knew it was going to happen, when all the bicycles took off you couldn't believe they were going to do that. The special effect was a breakthrought at the time, and was used only to support an even greater story. Last "rush of excitement" I've got for an special effect was when the T-Rex appears in Jurassic Park. Same thing: I was looking at it, and couldn't believe they did it so real. All the years of study in anthropology, animal movement, texture, etc. converged in those few minutes to make a brilliant shot. Special effects should support the story, if you only read the story that should be thrilling by itself. Then if you make a movie of it, and it's well acted, directed, edited and has good quality FX and soundtrack, then the movie might be thrilling too. But story is first.

Oh, giving a concert... I understand the stress. When I was a teenager I once had to play a couple of pieces live for the national radio (in Venezuela) in a program my piano teacher (who is a composer too) was invited. She was asked to bring a couple of pupils for a little display. Well, that was more stressful than having an audience. I was brought into this little room, silent as hell, cold as hell. A great Steinway piano, the bigest available was there, which I could have enjoyed in another circumstances. The piano was so big and the room so small that the room was actually built around the piano. The pressure of the timing in a live radio program didn't allow you to sit and relax before begining. You had to begin when the red light came on. My hands were frozen from both the coldness of the room and my own stress. But I began playing and somehow forgot about the audio technicians, the loudness of the huge piano in the small room, and when I finished I was sweating. I think I grew my first gray hair in that room. I refused to hear the recorded program for more than three months after, even though they told me I played good. It is inevitable that we expect the worst, but in most cases things turn out fairly good. I apply that rule, whenever I fear something I say "ok, let the imagination go and imagine the worst possible development" and then I'm relieved because if I thought about it, it won't happen.

The Love Theme from Superman is one of the most beautiful moments Williams ever delivered. The counterpoint between the cellos and violins make it like an operatic duet, male and female voices. Do you know of any updated recording? The original recording is not so good, I always have to use equalizer to make it sound right.

Oh, I've watched the TV at least twice every episode. But I'm talking about the movies. What I mean, Morn, is that we are inheriting in the movies the bad things of the original low budget series: 1- All planets have oxigen and a human can go there in plain clothes. They never need space suits and go to dangerous missions in cotton clothes, never use armor. 2- Aliens that interact with humans are people with masks. Why cannot be aliens that only live in water, 4-feet aliens, aliens that don't look like humans at all? 3- Battle sequences are between two or three ships only. Even when it has been stated many times that the Enterprise is not always doing 'scientific research', nobody thinks it's wise to have some fighter ships and battle trained people and equipment, just in case. The contradiction is that times have changed, and now the franchise has both the money and the technology to brake the stigmas of the low budget series, yet they still keep them, narrowing the universe of posibilities that such theme and characters can deliver. Also, aside of budget and technology, characters themselves could take more risks. What about showing fear, rage, being defeated, being injured near to death, losing a father, a son, a wife, making it personal and make mistakes? Yeah, risk is the word.

Not mentioned the non-Williams tracks: 1. Catch me if you can (2:41) 2. The "float" (4:56) 4. Recollections (5:16) 5. The Airport Scene (2:26) 7. Learning the Ropes (8:44) 8. Father and Son (3:15) 10. The Flash Comics Clue (1:47) 11. Deadheading (2:25) (AKA Deadhunting) 13. A broken Home (4:25) 14. Doctor, Lawyer, Lutheran (3:12) 16. Catch me if you can, reprise and end creidits (5:14) The themes are, briefly: 1. - A 'cat and mouse' theme, jazzy suspenseful theme, heard at the begining of track one. 2.- The 'Leonard Bernstein' theme. An optimistic theme ala Bernstein, alternating time measures of 3/4-6/8. Best heard in The Float. 3.- The Father's theme. Most Williams theme here, heard in tracks 4,8,13. 4.- "pink panter' theme. It's a sax solo with jazzy 'walking bass' used ocassionally along with theme 1. Also combined with these themes is a brief 'jazz band' balad motif. 5. Tracks 7 and 11 sport a transitory theme and its variation. This is not jazz, it could be Elliot searching in the woods for ET. It's a very interesting soundtrack. Williams has used his vast experience and musical erudiction to add a new dimension to both jazz and soundtrack music.

I saw the movie yesterday. It was fun. Good acting from Patrick Stewart and the guy who plays Shinzon. Brent Spinner was great as always. The others were there to fill in only, barely got something to do. But is was ok, it was focused. The car chase sequence had no purpose to the story other than give some action to a slow introduction. But everybody is using this "trick" now. I wasn't pleased with Goldsmith's sountrack, though. There were no memorable themes, and at some points the music sounded 'cheap'. Sorry Jerry, if you ever receive another oscar, it would be a consolation one, when the academy feels you are about to die soon. If the movie fails in the box office, it would be because the series is naturally decaying after such a long time of the same "shields 40% down","direct all power to phasers","the transporter is not functional", "they are going to destroy Earth" and so on. The series needs a refreshing approach. Characters are 'tired': Riker was about to become a captain many times, Picard should be admiral (hell, Janeway already is!), how many 'brothers' data has?, nobody is ever going to make another stable positronic brain and begin mass-production androids? it is always a perfect world back on Earth? why the enterprise is always the ship 'closer' to the action? why there is oxigen and earth-like gravityin all planets they visit? humanoid is the 'only' form of intelligent beings? if they can materialize food and objects, why can't they just fix the broken ship by materializing the broken parts? why they don't build ships by just materializing them? if you want to destroy an enemy ship and you can use the transporter, why transport people to it? why don't they just transport a bomb and make it explode inside? what happened with technologies like genetic engineering? can't they do human eyes for Geordi or he has a Michael Jackson complex? can't they solve baldness, aging, aren't there genetically enhanced humans? I'm a fan of the series, but they are wasting so many new topics by keeping themselves in the old formulas. Just look at our world. Material is there.

Oh, damn, you have The Robot! It was Jonathan Harris, Dr. Smith who changed the darkness of the series to something funnier. A dark Dr. Smith wouldn't make any sense for the whole series. If he was just evil, then keep him imprisoned and don't ever let the kid go with him.

Barry's Kidnapping in CE3K is totally atonal, but this is more like experimental music. It's a great track to scare people.

You see? There is no way to make everybody happy. If Williams composes 'protagonic' scores, critics critisize that his score is loud and distracting, when he uses a more subtle approach then he is critisized to be too abstract and write incomprehensible music. Ultimately, a score has to be as subtle or as predominant as the style of the movie requires it to be. For instance, very abstract scores like the ones used in old fashioned Warner bros cartoons, are far from the 'symphonic' Star Wars, but as you hear them with the images they are immensely effective. If the film is appropriate for an epic, easy-to-hear-alone score, great then. If the film is appropriate for a subtle, difficult-to-hear-alone, a require-a-bigger-deal-of-patience-and-imagination-to-understand score, then it's great too, and it's great that Williams is a master in every genre. I am interested in hearing every bit of that Williams has to give.

I can clearly see that the Potter Movie thing is going to be forgotten in 1 or 2 years. It really pisses me off that the fans of the movies always tell me that I should read the book to 'understand' the movie. I read a lot, but if I have to read the book for every movie I've seen in order to 'understand' the movie, I would have to for nothing else. I go to the theater to see a movie, not to get a half cooked story that requires reading the book to understand. As for the COS delivery, without reading the book, I know it is badly adapted, very evident in the long, emotionally, manipulative, nonsensical ending that everybody critizises. Were we supposed to cry and applaud? Because nobody seemed to get it. Also, have you noticed that most movies and new children's books like this encourage breaking the rules and at the end you'll be congratulated for doing it? (ET, HP and others) Not that I'm against this, but children understand the limit between defending principles at all cost and sheer rebellion?

I think the problem is something that is going on with the audience. I can't help to notice that audiences are becoming more and more impatient with movies, they want fast paced, video-game style thrills, and when there are parts of character development, acting, emotivity, personal drama, they say "the movie is slow and boring". Most of the movies selected in that list belong to the "slow and boring" category, according to a sadly mayority of the audience. But they are the movies that truly contribute to the art, while the "blockbusters" will be forgotten in a few months. Probably Spielberg, who was known as a "blockbuster" moviemaker, is going through this dilemma: while people expect from him to deliver "blockbusters", he really wants to explore something deeper. By trying to please both types of audiences, he's taking an approach that is more prone to failure than being pure film art. I'm sure that he will eventually find a way to push art into movies again, and make people love it.

Hans Zimmer inspired? 8O LOL 8O ROTFL

Oh, no. I just saw in that source that Ravel's orchestration for Schmuyle's theme was done for soprano saxophone. Whenever I've seen this performed live, it was a trumpet that did it. I hope that the recordings I have of it used the sax. I forgot to mention Stravinsky. Although some of his stuff is very atonal and rough to the ear, Stravinsky was among the firsts to introduce complex time measure changes in a piece. This gives a frantic, not fluid rythm, an arrythmia I may say. Although this is difficult for the untrained ear, Williams have been using it in ways that make them sound 'natural', like in the Bicycle Theme in ET, or making the arrythmia rythmic, like The Hunt is Lost World. I applaud Williams for finding the way to slowly train our ears to these innovative elements of the music of the 20th century.

You sure? I woudn't give the tune itself much of a masterpiece status... it if had been something like "Tableux d'une Exposition" by Mussorgsky I would have agreed... Yes, I hope you were sarcastic... Yes, I was being sarcastic. By the way, "pictures at an exhibition" by Mussorgsky, originally for piano, and orchestrated by Ravel was one of the examples I had in mind about orchestrations that were better than the originals. I played that piece at one my piano exams, and it really belongs more to an orchestra.

My favorite moment in Planets is Neptune, at that time considered the "last planet", it fades away into the space. The women chorus and the arpeggio violins had been used to represent space ever since. If you have the opportunity, get from the net the second movement of Shostakovich 10th Symphony. It's a short battle, in the Williams style. Williams is very fond of the russian composers. By the way, both Shostakovich and Prokofiev are probably among the first film score composers, and served as reference for many others.

There were many musicians who although talented in creating music, were very bad in orchestrating. Many or these works, only created for piano, were later orchestrated by composers more skilled in the orchestra, and that's how we know these works today. There is no doubt that Williams is one of the best orchestrators in music history. He can magnify any music. If you give Williams the Nokia cellphone default ring tune, we'll make it a masterpiece.

Of course!

I saw the documentaries in the DVD and the commentaries. This particular sequence was designed by Lucas to be such in which the ship's engines have a musical sound, and the Williams score was going to be only percussion. Williams did put percussion, but couldn't help to add some other instruments. The sound effects guys had to adapt to this. Also, in the commentaries, it is said the Lucas wanted the love theme to be predominant in the movie. As a musician, I understand the temptation of Williams to depart from tonalism, because it's been 500 years of tonalism in music, and there is so little that hasn't been done already. But he proved every time that he can go back to tonalism when asked, with new unconventional ideas that he somewhat manages to make sound nice to untrained ears. Even themes that became so popular like ET are made of unconventional harmonic progressions, that when you analyze them, you ask yourself how he could make them sound nice. In terms of orchestrations is the same. He has evolved as a master in very complex orchestrations, but can easily come back to simple formulas like A.I. and Minority when asked to do that.

From all actors, I think nobody is better than Ewan McGregor trying to look like Alec Guiness. He's got some small subtle manners of the legendary actor that make me forget he is Ewan. He is just a younger Alec Guiness.