Jump to content

Mattris

Members
  • Posts

    1,491
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    3

Posts posted by Mattris

  1. 19 hours ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

    Yoda had one in the Clone Wars, Ezra and Kanan had it in Rebels...

     

    Other characters experienced visions and premonitions throughout the SW canon. As I noted, I was referring to only to the first six Saga films.

     

    19 hours ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

    You went from "That wasn't actually Vader's plan" to "Vader and the Empire are incompetent" to now saying that "that was Vader's plan, but he only managed to do it 'cause Force"

     

    No, I asked 'what was Vader's plan' and 'how exactly did things align for Vader'.

     

    19 hours ago, Datameister said:

    No, he's saying it was the Force's plan. It wanted Vader to catch Luke.

     

    No, I'm saying it was Vader's plan but the Force didn't help him directly. It eventually assisted Vader indirectly, but that was only due to Boba Fett's critical contribution.

     

    I also wouldn't say 'the Force wanted Vader to catch Luke'. It just gave Luke a heads-up of what would happen to his friends, had he tried to help them or not.

     

    19 hours ago, Datameister said:

    In the fourth trilogy, the Force itself will be revealed as the true villain behind everything bad that's ever happened in SW. The peoples of the galaxy will have to rise up and go to war with their own midi-chlorians. (That end battle was sure tricky to shoot, back in 2018.)

     

    I don't think the Force is villainous, but it does have a will. I expect peoples' midi-chlorians alone will not facilitate long-term success or victory.

     

    18 hours ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

    Hey, i've heard this one, it's a classic! Pretty sure if I enter the nearest church I'll hear it again.

     

    Though, making the Force align itself with what the Sith wanted goes against some fundamentals, but what do I know, I wasn't enlightened yet.

     

    What fundamentals would those be?

  2. 3 hours ago, Datameister said:

    Just to make sure I'm tracking … you're suggesting that this isn't made clear by Yoda in that very scene?

     

    "Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future, the past. Old friends long gone. … It is the future you see."

     

    Logically, Yoda wasn't surprised that Luke had experienced the 'Force vision' because he had also experienced them. Subsequent Star Wars volumes confirmed this to be true. The canon also reveals that visions and premonitions were common among the Jedi of the Old Republic but became almost nonexistent by the time of the Saga. Based on the first six Saga films, it was implied this was the case. (Only Anakin and Luke were shown to have experienced them.)

     

    Generally speaking, very little about the Force was understood by the Jedi or anyone; beings simply took advantage of what it could offer. Some were more responsible and selfless than others. It hasn't been confirmed why the Force does what it does... but I expect it will be. ;)

  3. On 19/02/2024 at 6:06 AM, Gabriel Bezerra said:

    Every question you asked in relation to this topic was answered in more goodwill than I ever witnessed in this thread... and you return dismissing every single one of them.

     

    Not true. Most do not answer my questions with goodwill, and most don't answer at all, except with dismissive/sarcastic/snide comments.

     

    My intention was seeing if anyone could offer clarification and explanations for what happened in these movies and the overall Star Wars story. It's rare that anyone but me offers more than would a child.

     

    On 19/02/2024 at 1:08 PM, greenturnedblue said:

    I also have seen The Empire Strikes Back 😁

     

    There's a difference between 'seeing' and understanding.

     

    On 19/02/2024 at 4:14 AM, Trope said:

    :(

    My friend, you are simply recounting the sequence of events that took place in the film, without providing any answers to the questions we've asked concerning Darth Vader's ultimate plan. I'm starting to think that you yourself might not be so sure of what actually transpired... At least, you continually (intentionally or unintentionally) fail to express it clearly (i.e. in terms that the average person on the street would understand). 

     

    Regardless, I'd like to see your response to my take (based solely on memory, as I haven't watched the film for a few years). My understanding is that Jedi have been shown to experience premonitions of future events through the Force. By this point in the film, Vader knew Luke was his son, that he was strong in the Force (from the end of Episode IV), and even told the Emperor he could be turned into a useful ally (implying that he was strong enough in the Force to be effective on the dark side). Armed with this information, and provided the location of the Millennium Falcon by Boba Fett, Vader and his forces took control of Cloud City and tortured Han and Leia (asking no questions), confident enough that Luke would sense their peril through the Force (regardless of his training with Yoda) in order to draw Luke to their location and Vader would capture him (trapping him in carbonite, which had been successfully tested on Han).


    Your summary and explanation of Vader's plan is the first to note that "Jedi have been shown to experience premonitions of future events through the Force". This was made clear in the prequels and subsequent Star Wars volumes, content which shows that premonitions and visions can also be experienced by people (or non-humans) who are not Jedi. Since the Force works through all things - each of which can be affected uniquely - it would be short-sighted to consider 'receiving Force visions' as a personal ability.

     

    In context with what happened to Anakin Skywalker previous in the story, Darth Vader expected  Luke Skywalker to sense the peril of his family/friends through the Force because that was his personal experience. Anakin's premonitions of future events - notably, the suffering of his mother and death of his wife - actually happened.

     

    As per Vader's plan, all that was required was a timeline in which he would be able to capture and torture Han, Leia, and Chewie. Curiously, he couldn't manage it alone. (The Force was clearly not with him.) Not even a sector of fully-staffed Imperial Star Destroyers helped him. It eventually took bounty hunters. One came through in short order.

     

    Once Vader knew where the Falcon was headed, the Force took care of the rest.

  4. 18 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

    My God, what a boring discussion this has become.

     

    Only because you haven't realized the implications of my observations.

     

    14 hours ago, Datameister said:

    I gotta admit, this is one of Mattris's less entertaining detours. I expect better.

     

    Rest assured, Lucasfilm expects better from you and the rest of their audience.

     

    I'm not here to entertain you. I post here to demonstrate how much of the Star Wars story remains to be shown, told, and confirmed... elements of the narrative and lore that must be included in the story for it to be complete, much less, 'good'.

     

    I also share theories, logical reasoning, and relevant bits from Star Wars volumes not limited to the films. My track record and foundation is solid. (Can't say the same for anyone else here.)

     

    9 hours ago, bored said:

    Wait, we weren't supposed to do that before...?

     

    We've had decades to analyze these films. I'm merely scratching the surface. (Trust me, there's much beneath it.)

     

    17 hours ago, Trope said:

    Mattris, these kinds of unclear and reactionary responses are becoming old fast. Please at least provide us with your interpretation of events without tossing the ball back in our court.
     

    You’ve made your position clear, that most of us don’t understand the films properly and haven’t dedicated sufficient time to the same degree of intensive study and research as you. Now, as a Star Wars fan (at least in my childhood and teenage years), I’m genuinely fascinated to hear what you personally understand about the plot that the rest of us haven’t yet been able to grasp (and particularly on this whole issue of Darth Vader’s plan in TESB). I beg of you, no more obfuscation.


    At least try to help us see…

     

    For the second act of Empire, the Falcon and her crew eluded Darth Vader and his Imperial underlings, all of whom had proven themselves utterly incompetent to locate and capture a ship without a functioning hyperdrive. Luke went about his Jedi training with Yoda.

     

    The plot didn't progress until Vader sunk so low as to hire bounty hunters for the job. "There will be a substantial reward for the one who finds the Millennium Falcon."

     

    In short order, Boba Fett was able to accomplish what Darth Vader and the Imperial Fleet could not. "Most impressive."  (There's a good reason for why things transpired this way, but that's a good story... for another time.)

     

    In the very next scene, Luke saw a vision of the future through the Force: his friends in pain at a city in the clouds.

     

    The next scene shows the Falcon  arriving set at Cloud City. Han, Leia, Chewie, and C-3PO are soon put through the wringer.

     

    As I hinted previously, the reason Darth Vader expected Luke at Cloud City is provided in the narrative context. It needn't be limited to TESB alone... or even the entire OT.


    Thoughts? Last call...

  5. 1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

    It doesn't matter a hill of beans when Luke saw this vision.  It doesn't affect Vader's plan in any way whether Luke experienced this vision at the same time as Han and Leia's torture or beforehand in a premonition.

     

    Yes, it absolutely does matter when Luke saw the vision because it affects causation. Too soon, and the necessary character development would not have been achieved. (For instance, if Luke had seen he vision 5 minutes after he had arrived on Dagobah, he would have left his training and gotten to Cloud City days/weeks early.)

     

    Luke didn't experience the vision "at the same time as Han and Leia's torture". He experienced it before Han, Leia, and Chewie had even reached Cloud City. Why do you continue to ignore this critical fact?

     

    1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

    Vader couldn't possibly know (and certainly wouldn't care!) whether Luke found out in direct ripples in the Force, or through a Force premonition, or, heck, even through a holonews headline stating outright that Han and Leia were being tortured in Cloud City.

     

    Literally the only thing that would affect is how long it would've taken Luke to get to Cloud City.  So this whole "timeline" thing is really beside the point.

     

    Grasping the reality of the timeline seems to be your critical misunderstanding.

     

    How did Vader "possibly know" that Luke could - and would - experience a vision of Han and Leia being tortured in Cloud City... before Vader had even done the torturing?

     

    Your summary of what happened:

     

    1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

    "If I torture Luke's friends, he'll feel it in the Force (because the Force is strong with him, as we've already established), and then he'll come to rescue them!"

     

    ... is not what occurred.  It was not an if/then scenario.

     

    Do you think Vader just hoped Luke would experience a very specific vision of the future at a specific time in the past... and that Luke would accept it as a future that would likely come to pass... and that he would come to Cloud City at the ideal time? Seriously?

     

    1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

    Only if you disregard the film's context and read too much into irrelevant timeline "discrepancies".

     

    I paid attention to the film's context, that is the reason I can be satisfied with this explanation.

     

    No, you have clearly disregarded the film's context. Crucially, you don't seem to have realized that Vader was incompetent throughout the film. (Throughout the entire OT, actually.)

     

  6. 1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

    Yes.  Which makes it part of the trap.

     

    Technically, yes. But the carbon-freezing element wasn't the focus of the so-called trap, just the intended way by which "young Skywalker" would have been taken away.

     

    1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

    If you actually paid attention to the film's context, you'd know that Vader had Han and Leia tortured for the express purpose of making sure Luke would come to Cloud City.

     

    I paid attention enough to notice that Vader captured and tortured the Falcon's crew after  Luke had already left Dagobah. The movie showed that Luke saw the vision before  Han, Leia, and Chewie had even set foot on Cloud City!

     

    So how exactly did Vader 'make sure Luke would come to Cloud City'? Did he just assume  that Luke would experience a very specific vision of the future... and at a specific time in the past?

     

    "Through The Force, Things You Will See. Other Places. The Future, The Past. Old Friends Long Gone."

     

    How did Yoda know what Luke saw had been the future? How did he know it wasn't the past or present? If the vision just happened  so that Luke would finally go to the next location, I would consider it poor storytelling.

     

    1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

    And before you circle back to "Oh, but why was he obsessed with the Falcon instead of Luke?", as other posters here have observed, Vader clearly wasn't interested in the Falcon until after the Battle Of Hoth ended.  At that point, they lost track of Luke's X-Wing, so Vader came up with a plan to capture the Falcon and torture its crew to bait Luke into coming to him.

     

    How did Vader bait Luke? Based on the timeline of events, truly think about it.

     

    1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

    You're the one who brought up Vader's plan in ESB.

     

    If you're not interested in sharing this alternate explanation that's supposedly "better" than the one taken directly from the actual film's context, then don't.  I'm satisfied with the explanation derived from the film's actual context.

     

    What is your explanation? I don't know how you can be satisfied.

     

    Based solely on what was portrayed in the film, what happened regarding Vader's plan is presented as a mystery.

  7. The carbon-freezing chamber wasn't really part of the trap. It was just the mechanism by which Vader intended to "freeze Skywalker for his journey to the Emperor". Luke temporarily fell for it (pun intended) but emerged to continue the duel.

     

    Let's recap Luke Skywalker's experience in Episode V: Advised to go to Dagobah ("a slimy mudhole"), Luke abandoned his Jedi training on a whim... specifically, after experiencing a vision of his friends in pain and suffering. Ironically, Luke needed to be saved by them... after he risked death by long fall... after losing a hand and learning a shocking truth, one that Obi-Wan and Yoda decided not to reveal to him, for some reason.

     

    I supposed the question that should come up more in Star Wars fan circles:  How did Darth Vader know to expect Luke at Cloud City, much less, at that specific time?

     

    I think there's a logical explanation that wasn't spoon-fed. (Hint: Context is needed.)

     

    Sorry, I'm not going to spoon-feed it to you, either.

  8.   

    6 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

    The chase gave Han, Leia and Vader something interesting to do while Luke was training without them. Also, revealing that Vader was only after Luke at roughly the same time that Luke is shown to be making his way to Cloud City serves to raise the tension before father and son finally meet for their very first saber duel.

     

    As Faleel pointed out below, Vader’s pursuit of Luke is mentioned in the title crawl.

     

    What's "interesting" is that the Falcon was likely the only Rebel ship leaving Hoth without a functional hyperdrive. How (in)convenient!

     

    "No lightspeed?"  - Princess Leia

    "It's not my fault"  - Han Solo

     

    3 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

    I guess Vader just knew the probes weren’t getting the job done and decided a trap might work better. I’m sure he also considered the Falcon and her crew easier to track and capture in tact and even if something went wrong in the pursuit, there was much less risk of accidentally getting Luke killed in the process.

     

    Probes, the Imperial Fleet, Vader's own powers. Until bounty hunters were hired, nothing was getting the job done. What was the trap?

     

    3 hours ago, Faleel said:

    Not to mention, the Falcon stands out more, than a random x-Wing, so would possibly be easier to find/notice?

     

    It was never a matter of the Falcon being "easier to find/notice". The point was that it was the only ship Vader wanted. Apparently his trap had something to do with it.

     

    "He doesn't want you at all. He's after somebody... uh, Skywalker."  - Lando Calrissian

     

    57 minutes ago, Holko said:

    Yeah, we cut to the Falcon and it's in front of the SD's nose, they know where it is and can follow it. Luke just flew off in an X-Wing they didn't see or follow sometime later, they can only be directly after the ship they know the location of!

     

    Yet Vader and the Imperial Fleet lost the Falcon time after time... a ship without hyperdrive. Idiots!

     

    50 minutes ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

    Can we just skip to the part where you tell us what you think is happening in these scenes?

     

    What do you think Vader's trap in Empire was?

     

    Why do you think Vader pursued the Falcon instead of going after Luke?

     

    Not so fast. I want to know how you think the main story of The Empire Strikes Back  came together... a film that many - if not, most - Star Wars fans consider the best of the series. Surely you've made sense of it.

     

    Again, what makes you think Vader knew Luke was being trained? Was Vader's so-called 'trap' contingent on Luke experiencing a specific Force vision... before Vader had actually captured the Falcon's crew? As shown in the film, Boba Fett located the Falcon. It was insinuated that Fett reported its probable destination to Vader, who proceeded ahead to Bespin.

  9. 4 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

    So the movie could happen.

     

    Why do you think it was written with Vader obsessively going after the Falcon instead Luke?

     

    1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

    So that he wouldn't have to put Luke through Force-Wielder 101 himself.

     

    He let Yoda do it for him so that all he had to do was simply turn him to the Dark Side.

     

    What makes you think Vader knew Luke was being trained at all... or would see such a specific Force vision?

  10. 5 hours ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

    The... carbon-freezing chamber?

     

    The one they were about to use on Han?

     

    To test if the process works so that they could use it on Luke?

     

    So that they could bring him to The Emperor?

     

    So that the Emperor can turn Luke to the Dark Side?

     

    The film literally states outright that this is the Empire's plan.

     

    It was Vader's idea to turn Luke to the Dark Side. He even made an offer to Luke that "together" they could "destroy The Emperor" and "rule the galaxy as father and son."

     

    For someone with such grand intentions, why Vader was obsessed with finding the Millennium Falcon... instead of pursuing Luke directly?

  11. 37 minutes ago, Datameister said:

    "You catch on pretty quick." -Ric Olié

     

    Ironclad confirmation that most Star Wars fans understand exactly what Star Wars is about. The literal words have definitions, and the definitions come together to create meaning, and the meaning is irrefutable fact.

     

    If that's the only quote you have to go on, I think you have some work to do.

     

    To "most Star Wars fans", any deeper substance and valuable meaning of the story has seemingly passed them by. So far, Star Wars seems to teach only that 'Family/friends/aligned peoples should stick together to defeat/kill/destroy bad guys. Love wins... at least until history repeats itself in the next generation, at which time further defeating/killing/destroying becomes necessary.'

     

    The majority of fans have hive-mind assumed so much about the story that, when applied to an overall assessment, simply doesn't make sense of it. (This is especially true once the Saga expanded to six episodes. Even more so with nine in the bag.)

     

    Not only are the fans seemingly unaware of what they don't know, they don't seem to care that the story could be something else than they thought it was. It simply hasn't occurred to them what the story must  tell so that it actually makes sense. If the Star Wars story does eventually include these critically-important things, perhaps it can be a story worthy of remembrance.

     

     

    One such assumption:  After betraying Han and Leia, Lando revealed to them that "Lord Vader set a trap" for Luke. What exactly was the trap?

  12. 11 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

    Nope.

     

    "Always two there are. No more, no less."  - Yoda, from Episode I 

     

    11 hours ago, Groovygoth666 said:

    Only two trilogies confirmed from canon sources 

     

    The first two trilogies do not tell a complete story, only a lame one with dozens of things about the lore, history, and plots left unexplained. You are aware of what they are, right?

     

    10 hours ago, Datameister said:

    LiTeRaL cOnTeNtS

     

    It's a story being told. The words of which it's comprised tell the story. Words have definitions. Much can be garnered from these facts. Though one might have to pay attention and actually think.

     

    9 hours ago, bored said:

    I only count one trilogy as canon :D

     

    The OT? Perhaps you can make sense of why farmboy Luke Skywalker ended up being taught by two failures in their ways of the Force/Jedi... and ended up (seemingly) winning after not really learning anything.

     

    8 hours ago, Groovygoth666 said:

    Unfortunately what Lucasfilm/Disney says is canon is canon. But I'ma let you in on a little secret, you get to decide what parts of the canon you engage with. So if there's only one trilogy you want to watch and enjoy you can, there's nothing or no one forcing you to engage with the rest of it despite it still being an official part of the franchise. 

     

    Anyone is free to approach Star Wars in this manner. But those doing so will be denying reality... and the rest of the story.

     

    7 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

    If you haven't figured that out yet, you really ought to study harder.

     

    From my point of view, that might be the most ironic statement in this entire topic.

     

    I was just wondering if any here could cite any confirmed George Lucas lies. I'm still waiting...

  13. "Never more than twelve."  - Kino Loy, from Andor

     

     

    I think some of you are putting far too much stock in these 'drafts', works that did not have to be made public, nor are they canon.

     

    What did George Lucas say that confirms he "lied"? And with what evidence can it be proven?

  14. As already demonstrated, it's those like you who completely ignore factual evidence and the literal contents of the stories in favor of underestimations, assumptions, and an utter lack of logical reasoning. Only direct contradictions made by Lucas could lead one to believe that he has "lied". These statements would need to be examined on a case-by-case basis. What are they again?

  15. 9 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

    I don't think about that. 

     

    Then you made a mistake to correct me. I meant what I said. The fact is, I've been referencing "the deliberate connectedness of the Star Wars themes, both musically and narratively" for years now. I'm noticing and sharing with you what you missed.

     

    9 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

    Is that all you can tell me? Look a bit deeper into your crystal ball, surely there is a deeper connection than what you have come up with.

     

    Otherwise, you imply that because Rose's theme has a connection to the Force theme, Rose has a stronger connection to the Force then other characters whose theme does not have such a connection, like Yoda, Qui Gon, or Mace Windu who did not even have a theme. That obviously cannot be the case. 

     

    I really expected a deeper understanding from you than to state the obvious, that the only musical similarities between the March of the Resistance and Trade Federation March is that they are "both marches for groups certain they were doing the right thing". I could've told you that, and my understanding of Star Wars is nowhere near as comprehensive as yours!

     

    It's all I'm willing to tell you. Can you blame me? Why should I tell you more?

     

    I am not implying that "Rose has a stronger connection to the Force then other characters whose theme does not have such a connection". Could the themes for Yoda and Qui-Gon have a connection to the Force theme that you haven't noticed? Nothing seems to be "obvious" to those who doubt, dismiss, and underestimate so much... those like yourself.

     

    What you couldn't have told me is that, in Star Wars, all of the characters and groups were certain they were doing the right thing. They were all  wrong.

     

    8 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

    My current theory: Do not theorize on the motivations of Mattris, that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth: there is no Mattris.

     

    Rest assured, I'm very real. I expect those who come here to troll me will think of me when it  happens.  :microwave:

     

    7 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

    Wouldn’t it be funny if when the next batch of movies starts Mattris were to jump right back on the hate wagon as if he never made any of these theories in the first place?

     

    That would be funny. Regardless of what Lucasfilm does, I'll never let go of the theories I've substantiated.

     

    2 hours ago, Giftheck said:

    Reading through the thread, my theory is that what Mattris calls 'enlightenment' is the result of smoking some pretty strong stuff to cope with the incomprehension at why the ST was so bad.

     

    So bad... because?

     

    40 minutes ago, Trope said:

    A question for @Mattris

     

    Do you believe that John Williams planned out the entire thematic/motific structure of the 3 trilogies that we know of (and the 4th trilogy that you know of) back when he was first scoring Star Wars in 1977, in the same way George Lucas and Lucasfilm planned out the entire overall plot of the saga?

     

    And if so, how do you explain the absence of The Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme) in Star Wars - Episode IV: A New Hope, but its presence all throughout the prequels, which are set canonically BEFORE A New Hope?

     

    I had simply assumed it was because in 1977 John Williams hadn't conceived of Darth Vader as being as significant a character as he eventually turned out to be in later films, and hence only wrote the Imperial motif... Until in The Empire Strikes Back when Vader, due to his increased importance in the plot of the film (and proceeding films) required a more prominant/memorable theme. But perhaps there's a deeper cinematic/musical reason that you could share with us?

     

    No, I don't believe that John Williams planned out the entire thematic/motific structure of the 3 trilogies and beyond. I suspect George Lucas told his composer enough so that he could do his job properly, that is, compose the scores and themes so that things would make sense in 'the end'.

     

    My thinking is that the presence of such a prominent theme for Darth Vader in the original film would have been detrimental to its content and overall tone... what certainly felt like the start of a Hero's Journey. In the sequel, the obsession and menace of Vader is made that much more impactful with his new, memorable theme. As we know, the prequels showed the transformation of Anakin into Vader. The theme we knew had to feature.

  16. On 05/02/2024 at 3:11 AM, greenturnedblue said:

    Yeah, so, what do the connections I mention represent?

     

    I haven't gone on a years long journey of enlightenment, so I'm not smart enough to figure it out on my own 

     

    Oh, I know you aren't. But I can offer you a bit of insight into the examples you noted.

     

    In this story, the Force works through all things, including people like Anakin and Rose.

    Finn's Confession & Talks of Podracing: "He was meant to help you."

    March of the Resistance & March of the Trade Federation: Marches for groups certain they were doing the right thing. (They really weren't.)

     

    These connections were intentional, though I do not share your specific theories.

     

    On 05/02/2024 at 3:22 AM, Jurassic Shark said:

    Only musically, you mean.

     

    Narratively, as well. What narrative elements do you think I perceive that weren't planned or are not present throughout the sequels or the Saga, in general?

     

    On 05/02/2024 at 4:26 AM, Sweeping Strings said:

    This is why you ask 'What do you think it all means?', isn't it? So you can 'lord it over' others here and come out with this sort of pompous, condescending shit when they're (according to you) wrong. 

    Here's an unambiguous request for you - fuck off.  

     

    It's not like others aren't being pompous, dismissive, and condescending toward me. Am I not allowed to respond in kind?

     

    The facts and evidence support my position, theories, and overall assessment regarding the state of Star Wars. I was right before about some pretty major things. Logically, I'll continue to be proven right.

     

    I think I'll stay and watch it all play out.

  17. 1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

    So what's the reason behind March of the Resistance being partially a variation on the main title (Luke's) theme?

     

    Just another example of the deliberate connectedness of the Star Wars themes, both musically and narratively.

     

    45 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

    Why does Rose's theme have connections with both Anakin's theme and the Force theme? And why is Finn's confession a direct lift of Talks of Podracing? Or the March of the Resistance having connections to the march of the trade federation?

     

    The only possible explanation is that these connections are intentional. But what is the meaning of them? Will Rose turn out to be Anakin's long lost sister be revealed in Episode X? That would really tie the saga together. Was Anakin's podracer reincarnated as Finn? Will the Resistance turn out to be a front for Nute Gunray's latest taxation scheme? the "deliberate design" is obvious

     

    I hope you're enjoying the few 'laughs'. Looking back, you'll eventually realize that I knew what you didn't: All things in this story are connected in some way... some things/characters more strongly than others.

  18. 6 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

    Yes, I think it's intentional that many of the themes have similarities. It's part of how JW creates a distinct Star Wars sound.

     

    Statements like that are vague and dismissive of these very real musical connections, connections that link directly to how the story unfolded. They're much more than 'similar'. All of them considered, they formulate strong evidence of deliberate design... evidence that there was a plan for the sequel trilogy.

  19. On 04/02/2024 at 5:32 PM, bored said:

    I think it's more like John Williams was making connections that he thought could have been plausible. An example being Rey's Theme's numerous connections to many other themes, not just Palpatine's such as Vader, Luke, or the force, and Snoke's music being deliberately attributed to either Palpatine or Plagueis, because he wasn't sure what his relation was to other characters. Kylo's theme always sounded like an offshoot of Vader's theme to me before Palpatine, and the connection there is far more obvious in the film. He was trying to cover his bases and happened to get lucky by the end. Not that Williams isn't a genius overall.

     

    First of all, elements (musical or narratively) "more obvious in the film" to you than others is not a relevant to the overall interpretation of the story and its score. Everything counts, whether you noticed it or not.

     

    You're saying that John Williams 'covered his bases and happened to get lucky by the end'? He was told basically nothing by the Star Wars writers and decided to guess where the characters/story might go, film-to-film, incorporating specific inter-related musical elements into multiple themes and cues throughout the sequel trilogy... all of which can be tied to The Emperor's Theme in multiple ways. The trilogy concludes with Palpatine taking credit for a great many things. And you think it was all happenstance?  What an absurd theory to mask your underestimation and ignorance!

     

    The simplest explanation is that there was always a plan, one told to John Williams so he could do his job properly.

     

    On 04/02/2024 at 5:37 PM, Jurassic Shark said:

    I think he just wrote Star Wars music, and many of the other themes also seem to be connected.

     

    Perhaps because that was the intent.

     

    On 04/02/2024 at 5:51 PM, Nick1Ø66 said:

    Your overconfidence is your weakness.

     

    Regarding my interpretation of Star Wars - supported by factual/canonical evidence - I have no weakness.

     

    On 04/02/2024 at 5:51 PM, Nick1Ø66 said:

    Are there any other kind?

     

    Yes, other 'findings' include the contents of the musical scores and the literary sources from which George Lucas drew inspiration.

  20. 10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

    I don't think its a coincidence. Its just that I see the connection as more generic or "poetic", rather than literal and plot-oriented, as Mattris sees it.

     

    Its just that they're both Sith music, and so OF COURSE they're going to be closely related. "Sith" here strictly in the sense of Dark Side Force-user.

     

    I see it as too many notes in a row to be merely 'poetic'. All things considered -namely, the other musical references and inter-relatedness among the themes for Palpatine, Kylo Ren, and Rey... given meaning by the progression of the story; knowing and appreciating the proven mastery and skill of John Williams - the deliberate nature of this musical connection couldn't be more obvious to me.

     

    Another example: Snoke's music in TFA and TLJ was all but identical  to the music for the opera scene in ROTS, a scene in which Palpatine spoke of creating life and cheating death. Snoke was revealed to have been a creation of Palpatine. This, of course, after The Emperor's Theme  was played note-for-note as Snoke tortured Rey in TLJ. Thoughts?

     

    4 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

    If I'm not mistaken, I recall that Lucas significantly cut his "director's fee" in exchange for merchandising rights, which seems to be a business-driven move.

     

    It was a risk that paid off. Lucas wanted to be able to fund his growing business and produce his story more freely. He succeeded unconventionally.

     

    2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

    My own understanding of the situation is the following:

     

    Regarding George Lucas' plan for Star Wars, you seem to have taken into account only what was published about it and what the man said publicly... and have assumed a great many things based only on these findings. Careful not to confuse them with fact, his true intentions, or the insight into the story that can be garnered from its literal words.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.