Mattris

Like all fans, I just want a satisfying end to the trilogy and saga. If they manage to make an Episode IX that justifies the trilogy to the vast majority of Star Wars fans, I'll eat my hat. In just the last week or so, you've said you won't "re-engage" on a previous topic, that you're "exhausted at [my] posts and attitude, that "the chip on [my] shoulder is staggering, and that you "give up mate". Yet you keep re-engaging. Do you even know why you're posting in the Disenchantment topic?

So you gonna watch the sequel trilogy from afar?

My 'expectation' is that Lucasfilm justifies the existence of this trilogy in the context of the saga... because as of now, it seems like it's the last minute of American Graffiti. If IX comes out and there isn't even a mention of Palpatine... and a significant percentage of fans are dissatisfied and feel that sequel trilogy was ultimately unfulfilling, that's gonna be on Disney, Kathleen Kennedy, and JJ Abrams. There is nothing "unrealistic", "far-fetched", or "bizarrely specific" about the most powerful Dark Side villain of the saga - who could (possibly) create life & spoke about cheating death - revealing in the final film of the saga that what happened since his 'death' was his plan all along. "You will find that it is you who are mistaken about a great many things." "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design." "It was I who allowed..." "You, like your father, are now... mine." Unless Luke Skywalker and/or Han Solo are brought back in the flesh somehow*, I seriously doubt JJ has come up with a better ending to it all. But I'd love to be proven wrong... or (at least partially) right in regards to my theory. And in addition to all the 'Emperor hints' in the canon material, John Williams used The Emperor's Theme as Rey was being tortured in TLJ. Just another coincidence... or a 'deliberate creative decision'? * "not unless you can alter time, speed up the harvest, or teleport me off this rock"

I corrected my post. I meant, "the third is lower than the second note." I can assure you, I'm not trolling. Regardless of what anyone says, I simply don't buy the 'no master plan' thing. All of the character and plot elements in the films (and other canon material) pointing to an Emperor reveal in IX is most certainly not 'delusion'. I sincerely hope I'm right. If only because I cannot imagine a more fulfilling conclusion to the entire saga.

Hi @Jay I agree that off-topic posts should be in other threads (like this one). But I want to bring attention to the fact that I had largely remained on-topic in the Episode IX thread, contributing a well-thought-out plot theory, and only responding to - or expanding on - other members' off-topic/negative posts. I even mentioned that I was more hopeful and excited for the franchise and film. While my posts are sometimes long-winded and/or repetitive, they are substantive. While remaining on-topic, I cannot be a troll. When someone says something with which I disagree, I choose to explain why, but I can certainly make an effort to be less argumentative. The fact that my "posts are generally met negatively" is not my fault since I cannot control other members' reactions. I do not appreciate being called out when other members continually attack, demean, and criticize me for having a different opinion than them. I want to feel welcome here. When the conversation got out of hand last year, I remember you had to remind everyone to be respectful. I appreciate that you did that, but it seems that some might need another reminder. All the best.

As you realized, I was referring to small groupings of notes in the first four measures of the Rey's Theme and The Emperor's Theme. First grouping: The second note of each theme is higher than the first; CORRECTION: The third is lower than the second note. Second grouping: Rey's Theme contains three ascending notes. The Emperor's Theme contains three descending notes. The first note in the second grouping of Rey's Theme is a pick-up. So with the two notes in the second bar, it's three notes in total. Third grouping: Rey's single note is followed by three descending note which start higher than the first. The Emperor's Theme is the same notes as in the first phrase. I wasn't trying to make one. Fourth grouping: Both themes end with two isolated notes, with the second lower than the first. (When repeating, the Emperor's Theme often includes a third note.) Yes, that's what I meant. Both themes' have two isolated notes that end at count 1 of bar 4, with the second note lower than the first.

Hi @Jay First of all, I want to say that I love Star Wars. And, as one of the first individuals to become a member of JWFan.net, I love the music of John Williams. I am grateful for the website and understand that it is a privilege to be a contributing member of the forums. Yes, 'arguing and debating with people about Star Wars' has been my focus as of late. My contributions over the last few days have been on-topic and more-hopeful regarding the sequel trilogy. I have also awarded loads of 'Reputations' to other members and in the Episode IX conversation. I realize that the conversation in the IX topic had gotten derailed a bit, but this was largely due to others' derogatory posts directed at me. Please note that I only responded to others' off-topic posts. Though, I admit I should have limited my responses - at least in the number of words. I completely understand that you want to keep the Forum conversations on-topic. But I do not agree that "every other user here balances out negative posts with positive ones, argumentative posts with appreciative posts, informative posts with silly posts, etc." Is 'balanced posting' required to post within the Forum? While some of my posts are lengthy, repetitive, and/or passionate, they are substantive and on-topic -- not what I would classify as "trolly". Could you please clarify what you mean by "trolly" behavior and "act more normally"? Thanks for your time.

No need to name-call. I didn't bring up any specifics. I was replying to @gkgyver in an effort to make sense of the plot, characters, and events within the sequel trilogy.

What if this trilogy turns out to be a villain's journey instead? Perhaps Palpatine planned the social manipulation and personally arranged all of the conveniences and contrivances? The whole Sequel Trilogy is one big social engineering experiment... to inject an agenda, placate to the masses, and frustrate millions, only to reveal the motives in the final act. Palpatine (Disney/Lucasfilm in the real world) is laughing at us now, but everything will make sense in the end! How would you like them to take it?

I've said all I want on the topic of Disenchantment and have no desire to discuss it further. As you can see, I'm hopeful and positive now!

The fact that you didn't know they had an agenda - and didn't notice it - proves my point. In the Disenchantment topic, at least few more generally agreed with my take on Disney Star Wars. And I'll bet many more JWFan members are choosing not to engage. @gkgyver Have any thoughts on my Episode IX theory?

Then they've got you. I'm not @gkgyver but I like the cut of his jib!

He might know. But obviously, he's not going to let on if he does. Can you perceive the similarities between Rey's Theme and The Emperor's Theme? On the contrary, it would make the scene far better. Having turned to the Dark Side after he discovered the identity of his grandfather, Kylo has been living a lie. He turns back to the Light Side. And with Rey's help, they defeat Darth Sidious - and the Sith - once and for all. @Chen G. You pressed me for a theory on how the trilogy/saga will end, and I provided. Care to have a crack, yourself? (Please be more specific than 'the Force goes away'.)

After coming across this, I couldn't stay away: In an interview with kusc.org, John Williams spoke about Rey's parents: Interviewer: "I assume they are pretty extraordinary. Somebody tried to tell her that they were anonymous people who died in the desert. I don't believe that." "Yes. I don't believe it either," Williams said. The Dark Side can infuse itself within a helmet. Kylo thinks he's listening to Darth Vader... but it could be Palpatine.

Star Wars may be more important than you realize. As we speak, the fandom is broken, its merchandise looses money, and more and more people are becoming aware of Hollywood's increasingly agenda-driven approach to film-making. Careers and billions of dollars of potential revenue rest on Episode IX. I truly hope JJ pulls out all the stops, makes the best Star Wars movie since Return of the Jedi, and reunites the fandom. These days, I've heard that Star Trek is doing no better than Star Wars... for the same reasons. I think my chances are high. But if my theory doesn't pan out, I had fun surmising. I did not say, "I will be SHOCKED and disappointed if it doesn't follow my way, and it will be terrible any other way". I said, "I'll be shocked if JJ - or anyone here - comes up with something better." If my IX theory turns out to be right, I'll certainly take a victory lap on the forums. But I never said the film had to "it absolutely HAS to adhere to" my prediction. To be honest, though, I hope JJ comes up with something even better. Even without George Lucas' involvement, I firmly believe that most of the disenchanted fans can be enticed back. For the many reasons I presented at length in the other thread, the overall interest in Disney Star Wars has waned. But the marketing campaign for IX has yet to get cranked up. An impressive trailer and positive attitude from Lucasfilm would greatly contribute to enticing some back. (Apologies from the rude/dismissive LF employees would also be welcome, but I won't hold my breath.) The majority of the rest of the disenchanted fans will simply wait for trusted reviewers' thoughts on the film after its released. As one of the more-informed disenchanted Star Wars fans, nothing I do at this point will 'make my future viewing experience worse'. I understand and care about the franchise, the fandom, and I sincerely hope that IX will fix things. The 'seeds of repair' exist. JJ and Lucasfilm just need to plant them. If they don't, things will only get worse... far worse, before they get better. We'll see what happens.

Over the last... many months, I've tried to figure out what's happening with Star Wars, specifically the motivations of those in charge, criticisms of the films, and where I think things are headed regarding the fans and the canon. I've remained logical and composed, especially compared to many on here, who seem intent on poking fun or tossing insults my way. I think I'm on to something... and am as excited now than I was before TLJ. So I'll continue posting here if I so choose. Instead of spending time publicly criticizing my "crackpot theories", why don't take you own advice and take some time off? I disagree. Unless IX knocks it out of the park, the disenchanted fans will never "learn to appreciate them". Wrong, Star Wars is not "just movies"; it's a cultural phenomenon. All depends on how IX wraps up the trilogy and saga. Bland will not stand the test of time... and slowly but surely, the general public become intolerant of mediocrity and agenda-driven content. The vast majority of movie goers (Star Wars fans included) want escapism, not to be tricked or preached to.

Although my longer posts are far too wordy to be STAR WARS opening scrolls, they just as substantive. @crumbs Rather than make fun of me, I challenge you to come up with an Episode IX theory - and title - of your own.

If Palpatine created Rey, I suppose it would be 'familiar'. So yes, "that's the way it was before," so that's how I think the saga will conclude. "It's like poetry. They rhyme." Star Wars isn't complicated, but Rey vs. Kylo #3 to will be grossly insufficient and unsatisfying end to the trilogy and entire saga. I think Lucasfilm had hoped many more fans would get 'on board' with their new story. But many factors hindered fan interest: - Before TFA had been released, Kathleen Kennedy stated that she was proud to showcase a "strong female character" in the lead role... instead of letting the fans discover for themselves that she was strong. - No explanation of Rey's affinity with the Force, why it awakened in her specifically, and why she gains skills without any training. - Far too much canon material to consume. People just aren't going to bother... but nonetheless, explanations of characters and events, as well as clues for things to come can be found in this material. - Waiting until IX to inject so many important story/character elements has left many fans - and the general public - disappointed, confused, and complaining. - Lucasfilm employees antagonizing disenchanted fans on Twitter. - Disney allowing many in the media to run with the false narrative that the Star Wars backlash is primarily due to racism and sexism. So many fans are talking about the many coincidences, distractions, and subversions in TFA and TLJ, that they haven't taken a step back to realize the bigger picture: Just like Palpatine, Lucasfilm are playing a long game in regards to the sequel trilogy. With comments like 'we're making this up as we go', they've made the fans think they weren't up to anything special. But let's be real... they've been planning a big reveal and finale this entire time. Either Palpatine is coming back, and it will take Rey and Kylo, together, to defeat him once and for all... or Palpatine's past actions will be revealed that significantly affect the story and/or characters. I'll be shocked if JJ - or anyone here - comes up with something better. If Lucasfilm do have something big planned for IX - whatever it is - I don't understand why they would let things get so out of hand with their relationship with the fans. Perhaps they enjoy their power and messing with peoples' minds. Reverse psychology? The fact is, neither of us really know if they had a "grand scheme behind these films". Obviously, they didn't anticipate Carrie Fisher's death, but I firmly believe that JJ had a plan for the story: Palpatine returns in a major reveal. Only a fool would believe that Rian Johnson was allowed to do literally whatever he wanted in the middle installment. He had limits, and I'd bet they were established by JJ in conjunction with the Lucasfilm Story Group, who worked to align with the other canon writers/authors. Yes, JJ has much to include in IX, which is the end of the trilogy and saga. Even if he wrote the screenplay 'making it up as he goes', he still would have had first access to all of the canon material and TLJ's screenplay. I'm sure he would have been able to come up with the Palpatine connection, as I did. But again, given all the clues I've discovered, I think Lucasfilm's approach from the outset was to conclude the Saga with the big baddy from the other two trilogies, with the most intriguing scene from the prequels (Palpatine and Anakin at the opera) as IX's premise: "All who gain power are afraid to lose it." "He became so powerful, the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power." And I predict the title will come from Darth Vader in STAR WARS: "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the POWER OF THE FORCE." For a whole host of reasons, I don't trust Kathleen Kennedy or Rian Johnson when they say 'had no plan or criteria for the trilogy'. I trust JJ, who a get a sense is a true fan of Star Wars. I'm hoping he will finish the story 'satisfactorily', as he intends. That sounds plausible to me. "The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural." Contradictory? I welcome the use of canon material. I just didn't like TLJ's most subversive elements: Holdo squashing Poe, Rose squashing Finn, social justice infused Canto Bight, DeeJay (Don't Join), multiple Luke/Ben flashbacks (two of which were lies), out-of-place humor, etc. "He could use the Force to influence the midiclorians to create life." "He taught his apprentice everything he knew." He says, "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret." Palpatine was a Sith, who does and says what is necessary to gain power. He could have been lying to Anakin... or gained the ability - perhaps with Darth Vader's help - during the 20 years before his apprentice betrayed him. Palpatine to Anakin in Revenge of the Sith: "If one if to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects - not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force." "Ever since I've known you, you've been searching for a life greater than that of an ordinary Jedi... a life of significance, of conscience." "I can feel your anger. It gives you focus, makes you stronger." Luke and Rey in The Last Jedi: Luke: What do you see? Rey: The island, life, death and decay... that feeds new life, warmth, cold, peace, violence. Luke: And between if all? Rey: Balance... and energy... a Force. Luke: And inside you? Rey: Inside me? That same Force. Luke: (lesson that the Jedi do not own the Force) Rey: There's something else... beneath the island. A place, a dark place. Luke: Balance. Powerful light and powerful darkness. Rey: It's cold. It's calling me. Luke: Resist it, Rey. Rey! Rey!!! You went straight to the Dark. Rey: That place was trying to show me something. Luke: It offered something you needed, and you didn't even try to stop yourself. (Rey realizes that Luke had closed himself off from the Force.) Luke: I've sen this raw strength only once before in Ben Solo. It didn't scare me enough then. It does now. Observation: The from-above shot of Palpatine's 'death' is very similar to the imagery of Rey being tempted to the Dark Side (water emerging from the island's "dark place")... and then Rey seems to have been left by the water after it's pulled away. A coincidence... or by design?

In one of the canon Darth Vader comics, it is insinuated that Palpatine created Anakin. James Luceno's Darth Plagueis novel is no longer canon to the Star Wars Universe. I am unaware of any canon material that indicates that Plagueis created life.

Why is it unbelievable that they knew Rey would be related to Palpatine in some way... and have been dropping clues in the films, comics, and novels that will make sense of things in the end? To think that Lucas didn't envision a hero's journey for Luke is absurd. But while Star Wars was the first film in the saga and had to adhere to nothing, IX is the end of a trilogy and the entire saga. It simply must tie things together in a massive, impactful conclusion. The details of the Sequel Trilogy will make sense if they did have a plan for Rey's origin from the beginning... and if they were clever enough to sprinkle clues throughout VII and VIII... and make IX so that it pieces everything together. Please tell me @Chen G., what are "the facts"? Considering how Disney/Lucasfilm are acting unconventional with this trilogy (writing/making the films one at a time, with different directors; antagonizing the disenchanted fans; etc.), nothing is clear. Given that Rey is the protagonist of the trilogy, I'm confident that the vast majority of fans would want Rey to be connected/related to a previous character. I agree, "the story of an orphan from nowhere becoming a leading figure in the struggle against evil and a master of her craft is an interesting one"... in another Star Wars movie/series - not the concluding trilogy of the STAR WARS Saga. As @Fabulin noted, Rey is never filled with self-doubt and incredulity at her own abilities. Her journey can only be 'diminished' if she fails or fails to discover her "place in all this". Correct. As revealed towards the conclusion of Aftermath: Empires End, Emperor Palpatine personally set-up his Contingency on Jakku, which can be revealed in IX. If true, Rey and Kylo are related: one created as a "Contingency", the other is the grandson of Anakin, who Palpatine created. If handled properly, this could be an amazing reveal. JJ has an entire 2.5-hour film to work with to make a solid ending of a story. What can he do to make the entire trilogy - and the conclusion of the Saga - "satisfying" if not utilize characters and themes of the previous trilogies? Since Rey has already beaten Kylo twice, another confrontation between them will not be enough. The evidence exists whether you deny it or not.

Given all the clues that lead me to believe Palpatine will be connected to Rey, yes, I think that when Williams wrote Rey's theme for Episode VII he had been told Rey's origins. You can't deny the slew of evidence that points to a big Palpatine reveal in IX. Story-wise, I will be shocked they come up with something more fulfilling and relevant to the overall narrative of the saga.

As always, John Williams' themes for the two characters fit like a glove. While their tone/character is distinctly unique, both themes begin with four phrases across four measures in 4/4 time. First phrase: The second note of each theme is higher than the first; the third is lower than the first. Second phrase: Rey's Theme contains three ascending notes. The Emperor's Theme contains three descending notes. Third phase: Rey's single note is followed by three descending note which start higher than the first. The Emperor's Theme is the same notes as in the first phrase. Fourth phrase: Both themes end with two isolated notes, with the second lower than the first. (When repeating, the Emperor's Theme often includes a third note.)

Before I explain how their themes are similar, want to have a crack at why you think they are not?

Speaking of music, can anyone hear the similarity between Rey's Theme (her main theme) and The Emperor's Theme? I don't think this is a coincidence. John Williams knows something!

One frame showed Palpatine conjuring a baby within Shmi Sykwalker. In the third Aftermath novel, Palpatine set-up a "Contingency" project on Jakuu. Why? They contain hints at - and explanations of - things in the films. Perhaps, but Rey's origin isn't conclusive just yet. I'll never understand why her being "related to any established character in the Star Wars films is friggin' stupid." Anakin wasn't a nobody. Luke wasn't a nobody. So why should Rey be a nobody? Rey has always had the Force within her. It just 'awakened' as Kylo's Force powers grew. I don't know what "riches" you're expecting from Rey. She already defeated Kylo twice. The origin of the protagonist of this trilogy needn't be concerned with "expanse of this world". Again, the audience needs to be told why she, specifically, has such immense Force powers. I'm confused that you think an explanation of Rey's origin would be a "cheap repeat" when the twists in The Empire Strikes Back ("I am your father") and Return of the Jedi (Vader betraying his master, sacrificing himself to save his son) were absolutely crucial to the overall story. I think IX will have a major reveal, betrayal, and sacrifice. "It's like poetry; they rhyme." The explanation of Rey's powers and origin would now be a "big twist" since they would be revealed in the third film in the trilogy. It will be a powerful moment if they write and present it skillfully... with a magnificent musical cue.