Marcus

Hi Eric, Welcome onboard! You are absolutely right; about Williams, Walton and the general state of affairs in film music (and actually concert music, too, to far too great an extent). As composers, we should follow Williams' example: Study our craft and practice it to perfection! Know our history, our tradition, and always look to gain more experience! By the way: Williams' orchestrators are really glorified copyists: He leaves no decisions up to them, everything is accounted for in his sketches. Best, Marcus

Thank you for addressing this! I feel exactly the same way...

As far as I'm concerned, great film music will be written as long as Williams is around to write it. And he is as remarkable and brilliant as ever! Beyond Williams, things are looking rather dull, not to say dire, (at least in Hollywood) these days...But the present decline in terms of craftsmanship and artistic taste among film composers (mostly because they aren't classically trained, but still elect to write "symphonic music") will not last forever. Beauty survives! (It has so far...)

It is the same, actually, but with minor rhythmic alterations, making it resemble Hedwig's theme even more. But you are right, the theme I pointed out is more of a "Weasley's theme". And there is an additional slight "herald" right when Errol comes flying, before the theme I refer to is heard.

I just wanted to emphasize that I didn't mean to address "Williams sounding like Williams" in pointing out that a surprising amount of themes from the Harry Potter films are based on "Hedwig's Theme", but rather to compositional and structural integrity, meaning it was planned and designed this way by Williams. Also, Errol's theme (which is a theme, not a motif), can be heard on CoS OST, track 1, ca.1'23''.

Hi everyone! This is not someone announcing a splice, but rather the studion musicians "singing" part of the groove before entrances, most likely it was Gary Willis, the bass player (who is a fantastic session player). It happens throughout the cue, though, -at least three or four times. To me, it only adds atmosphere and authenticity.

Hello everyone! I would just like to point out that most of the themes from Williams' Harry Potter scores are actually based on Hedwig's theme. Some examples are: Errol's theme, Lockhart's theme, Voldemort's theme, the theme for the Chamber of Secrets and "Double Trouble".

Thank you, Codanai! Eloquently put! Just to recap briefly my previous post, or rather, add to it: All aspects of traditional craft are beautifully, magnificently evident in Williams' technique. His contrapuntal mastery is staggering, and his harmonic sensibility equally so. No achievement of his would be conceivable without a complete and utterly deep understanding of craft, and every aspect of it in a classical perspective.

Thank you, pi, I understand where you are coming from now. It seems we refer to very different things in our use of the word "theory". You seem to address "rules", which are academic, while I mean simply to point to the codeification of our great classical heritage, the history of craft in western music (which actually applies to all harmonic music today). I am only too aware of the recent decline in the art of film scoring... Thankfully, John Williams is the prime example of the very opposite of your "Elfman-phenomenon", and his music is all the richer for it. StrongBad, Thank you, -glad to hear it! "Theory", as I use it, is just another aspect of craft, which, simply put is: Harmony, Counterpoint and Orchestration. Of course, we may elect to view "theory" as simply referring to something academic. For me, it is something practical, and a better word is perhaps "experience". Trust me, I know what you and pi mean by pointing to a difference, but I think it is important to bridge this gap, lest we find ourselves alienated by a false complexity. "Theory" is the discussion of that which is practical, and they are, so to speak, one and the same, from different perspectives. An example would be: A young composer notices in a score that in a certain range, a low horn can sound like a tuba, or he notices that certain unisons can emulate other instruments, say, unison alto flute, english horn, clarinet and bassoon can give the impression of two horns in unison (played softly). He later adopts this technique (which he knows theoretically), and applies it practically in a score of his own.

Kudos to you, KingPin! Wonderful observation! I'm completely convinced it was conscious on the maestro's part.

Pi, I fail to see the difference between "theory" and "orchestration"? What are you referring to? What do you mean? They both form elementary parts of the craft that is musical composition in the history of classical music. And to state that "classical theory" (whatever you mean by that) is useless in modern film composition is ignorant and vulgar. Forgive me for being stern!

StrongBad992648, The debate of parallell fifths has nothing to with the kind of theory I'm addressing here,- of course a professional classically trained composer wouldn't be concerned with such rudimentary "rules" that exist solely as a guideline at an entry level understanding of harmony and polyphony. As to whether something needs to be a major 7th, that's actually an entirely different discussion altogether. Williams is very much aware of how intervals relate to character and drama, and is clearly "intellectual" in terms of how he designs his themes. This does not take away from the emotionality of his music, though. My main point is simply this: There is no real conflict between theory/craft and "inspiration"! They co-exist, and if we wish to create something beautiful and truthful, they must be combined!

Yes, they certainly are catchy as hell, and indeed is most of what Williams writes, and the memorability of those two themes in particular has much to do with their tautness of construction. They are very logical, and have very clear "profiles", both rhythmic and melodic.

Pi, I certainly agree! Great music can be written at any technical level. But the absence of craft is never beneficial, and it is for instance impossible to imagine Williams' music being written without a thorough classical training as a composer. By the same token, one can easily imagine Zimmer's music written without such training, but with experience in a more pop-musical idiom. But being an educated, well-trained and experienced composer doesn't imply that you stop using your ears, but rather that you start using them better!

Yes, we should certainly be in awe of his ability! And we owe it to ourselves and the legacy of great craft to study what makes his music so great, of course. I'm delighted to hear about your symphony! For what label will it be recorded? And I'm glad you told Williams his work is one of the main reasons you are a composer today, I've actually told him the exact same thing on the occasions that I've met him!

Dear everyone! First of: Bowie, this is a very important topic, and I find it a most welcome thread! And you are quite right, large intervals and dramatic leaps are a significant property of Williams' melodic technique. And writing melodies does have its techniques, most certainly. Another factor pertinant to Williams' style is also demonstrated very poignantly in ChrisAfonso's generous example from the violin concerto: Sequences: Williams' themes, far from being noodled and dreamt up at the piano, always have a very taut construction, and are always motivically linked from phrase to phrase (in the violin concerto example, we have the dramatic sixths and their inversion, thirds). Williams' themes could be said to embody a dramatic pathos with a very classical sense of rhetoric, meaning they are stringent and "free" at the same time.Notice also how carefully he builds drama with a modified recapitulation of the climax of the first phrase at the end of the second phrase. If we truly investigate his themes, we will discover a very clear sense of construction and coherency in them, every bar seems to be cognitive of every other bar, meaning the themes have a sense of being "complete". This sense of intelligent working out of thematics is just one of the things that separates Williams from most other film composers today. And, as with Haydn and Mozart, the strictness of logic births a great emotionality, just as our minds are emotional and logical at the same time. Truly studying Williams' melodic techniques has aided my gift for melody tremendously. I strongly encourage all of you who are composers, professional and not, to do the same! P.S. This logic also works subconsciously: We will, when alert and attentive to what the music needs, tend to opt for musical choices that link our present material with its immediate predecessor, we have an internalised "will" towards completion and coherence. But we can only benefit, in music as in all fields, from a deeper understanding of craft, and to even suggest that theory is a hindrance, an obstacle, for creativity, is a sad misunderstanding of theory, and an equally sad misunderstanding of creativity... Yours very faithfully, Marcus Paus (Who did his Master's in classical composition a good while ago, and is now finishing his first symphony, which has been an exhausting effort, and who is very glad to find fellow Williams enthusiasts who intend to understand the technical aspects of Williams' music as well, especially since so few professional colleagues have opened their ears to the great achievements of John Williams!)

Dear Mark, Did you perhaps miss my post on "Battle of the Heroes" further up this page?

Dear Incanus! Yes, I believe you are exactly right! Generally, Williams treats the bvi-i cadence as a reference to the "Imperial March", and I love the "scherzofication" of it in TPM. Dear Pi! I meant to point to exactly the characteristics that may mislead us to hear the Star Wars main title, while also strongly emphasizing what shows it to be a mere variation on the fanfare motif from "Harry's Wondrous World". In other words, I am not "special".

Hi everyone! Just to clarify one thing: There is no Star Wars "quote" in the train scene in HPSS. What we hear is a variation of the fanfare-motif from "Harry's Wondrous World", but the motif (in 3/4, and rhythmically consisting of two eigth notes followed by two quarter notes) is played f-e-c-g, and not e-d-f-d. had the e gone down to d, and been a triplet motion, we would have had a Star Wars "quote". As it stands, it is clearly a variation of the aforementioned fanfare motif.

You can trust Rachmaninoff on many things, but I'm afraid you are trusting a melodic transformation of his, rather than the original motif, which is an old Gregorian chant. And usually, in Paganini, Liszt, Berlioz or Williams or whoever, the original motif is what is quoted. But it doesn't matter,- forgive me for being rather anal here.

No, Pi, you misunderstand my point: You've notated the motif incorrectly; You've given us a "whole-tone" Dies Irae, and your A needs to be an Ab, no matter what harmonic context you wish to present it in, or rather, your first interval must be that of a falling minor second. As it stands, it is only related to the Dies Irae motif in terms of contour.

Greetings, everyone! Pi, just change your A to an Ab, and we have the "Dies Irae" in F minor. I think a lot of the examples of "D.I" quotes listed above really refer simply to a melodic device known as a "cambiata". A most interesting example of a "Dies Irae" paraphrase (not quote) is the melodic motto from "Battle of the Heroes", which I'm surprised not to have seen mentioned before. And it is a very fitting paraphrase, as we are indeed witnessing a "day of wrath".

Oh dear, oh dear... I'm not sure bitter is the word, but seeing this certainly saddens me. Not only because this year's winner was so flabbergastingly unworthy (not that you really need to be to be worthy, the Oscar's is political, and very uninformed in terms of how wins are decided), but it is simply quite devastating to again be reminded that our culture is one that practically worships mediocrity. It is good to be uneducated, it seems. It makes one more "of the people",perhaps... I am ranting here, sorry. I don't wish to sound elitist. But I would so like to see Williams win another Oscar, not that it matters, but it seems to matter to him... And he deserves all the awards and honors that can be lavished upon him. We should celebrate our heroes while they are still around to enjoy it.

I certainly hope not! Hooray for Luddites everywhere! Arts&Crafts forever!

I absolutely adore Williams' score for "Angela's Ashes"! It is simply a lyrical masterpiece! "Lanes of Limerick" is one of the best written pastoral solo harp pieces I know, and I have given the music to many of my harpist friends, who now perform it regularly. It was actually repertoire at the International Harp Congress a few years ago... And Williams' string writing is amazing, in this score and elsewhere. I love studying his doublings, inner lines, etc. I like to view this score as an hommage to the English pastoral school, which must have influenced Williams profoundly.