Marcus
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Posts posted by Marcus
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Thank you, pi! I'll see what I can do. I don't own a scanner, though...
Voicings, reductions, orchestrations; they all belong here! And some voicings have been discussed above.
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Thank you, Steef! Although I disagree, they are certianly both composers with a recognizable style, even though I find Barry's style outside of a James Bond context somewhat less pregnant.
And very sadly, Goldsmith is no longer a contemporary composer in the strictest sense of the word.
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I am tempted to say "The Force Theme". Which I think is far superior to the thematic content of Beethoven's 5th, even if this, as I've come to understand, is a very unpopular view.
It is very hard to give an honest answer; I'm so very torn between so much great music. But I will say, that in my mind, it must have been penned by Williams, Mozart, Schubert or possibly Poulenc. Tchaikovsky could write decent tunes too.
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Now, pi...
I take this thread seriously, and find it a very welcome opportunity for us as musicians and composers to share our experience from a technical point of view.
As I mentioned, I would love to offer my examples in written music, as you requested earlier. Could you share some thoughts on how to go about that? Do I need a music notation program (I mentioned, I think, that I still write by hand...)?
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Dear Publicist! The challenge still stands: Name a contemporary classical-or film composer with a more distinct style than Williams!
As a highly educated professional composer, I must say that referring to Williams as a "solid to great" craftsman is quite an understatement.
And as to reactions generated by music, psychological or emotional or intellectual, we really cannot be the judge of reactions other than our own.
If you mean to imply that Williams somehow lacks "depth", I dare you to define musical "depth".
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If you mean the entire progression, and not just the "Tristan chord", I'm not sure. But I'm sure it's found somewhere. As to significant use of the "Tristan chord", look no further than the B section of "Across the Stars".
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I'm afraid the South Park allusion is a little lost on me, but the character in question sounds somewhat less than sympathetic...
I would love to offer my examples in music. How do I achieve that? Do I need a music notation program ( I unfortunately do not use one; my scores are all still handwritten, as my publisher takes care of the engraving)?
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Certain noises can be charming! A wonderful example is Williams humming the tempo-change in "Bug Tunnel" from ToD. It just shows that it is real and organic.
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Oh, forgive me, Marc. It completely slipped my mind. Sorry for the extra work on your part...
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ChrisAfonso, yes, exactly! I believe that progression (with the soft choral entrance) is a slight variation on the #4-3 chain discussed above. In the key of Cminor, it would run Cm-Db#4-3-B#4-3-Cm-Bb/C-Ab-Cm, etc., right?
Very useful progression, I tend to utilize variations of it all the time.
Oh, and as to less "tonal" facets of Williams' palette, a wonderful device is the building of quartal harmonies on 1st inversion major chord (which can be read differently, of course). How about this: Abmin9add#4, spelled Bb-Eb-Ab-Cb-D, possibly over a C-pedal, or as a cadence to C. This sonority could also be expanded upon. Try adding a replica of it a major 7th higher! Or at other intervals.
Williams uses this harmonic technique to generate clusters and more "abstract" harmonies frequently.
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I've seen Williams on five occasions, and met and talked with him twice. And I saw and talked with Jerry Goldsmith once. I have of course met John Corigliano several times, as I've studied with him.
I saw John Barry from afar in Avery Fisher Hall last year.
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Now, if we want to look at the obvious film musical "clichés", a few items should be mentioned. First of secondary and third-degree mediants (ex: C-Ebm-G-Bbm), and frequently interspersed with tritone progressions (ex: C-Ebm-A), and non-functional half- or whole-step progressions (ex: Am-Abm-Bb), and combinations of these (ex. C-Ebm-Dm-Abm-G-Dd-Cm-Em-Ebm).
And the quintessential Herrmann progression would of course be parallell minor triads moving in thirds and seconds (ex:Cm-Bm-Abm-Am-C#m).
More clichés will follow shortly.
And of course the standard Williams cadence: b6- 1, but most often b6 minor (as in Cm-Em, or Cm- E).
Other harmonic Williams deveices are chromatically descending maj7th chords, but after three steps, skip a third up, or skip to another interval (ex: Gmaj7-Gbmaj7-Fmaj7-(Abmaj7/Bbm/B/Cm/etc.)
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O.K., I can't argue with that, nor did I ever really mean to. The issues I refer to are the ones we professionals tend to address to each other, and hope to learn from.
So we can serve an audience even better.
Yours humbly,
Marcus
Oh, and for the record, Pi:
I am all about the desserts of the repertoire! I love the classics (if they're good)...
And I am sorry to have come off an elitist, which I am not.
Just a humble, but tremendously opinionated hard working composer.
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I never said it wasn't glorious, just that the vocal writing is unidiomatic...
And it's not about everyone "seeing it my way", but there are certain things that most professionals tend to agree on, certain technical issues..
That is all.
I'm glad you enjoyed the performance!
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Ah, the old #4-3 suspension sequence. Try substituting your G chord with Bb minor for a very "Williamsy" sound. Or move the sequence up a half step for every whole step (B-C-A-Bb-G-Ab) for a more Herrmann-esque quality. Or stay on the B chord and let your melody resolve to D natural (making your harmonic content octatonic, another standard Williams device).
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But my dear 3,14...
I heard a marvellous performance of the "Eroica" only a few weeks back. I know the symphony very well, of course.
And I'm certainly not the kind of composer you seem to think I am. My teachers have included Corigliano and Danielpour, and my inclinations are towards a more romantic language.
But I'm sorry if I have offended you.
My observations are unsentimental here, I only look at Beethoven from the point of view of a craftsman, and I daresay an experienced one. Ask any choral director about the ninth, and you'll find they share my opinion.
We're not talking about the music here, but the technique.
By the way, everyone: I am sorry if I've inspired the decline of this thread to a mere "Clash of the Composers"...
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Well, as far as the ninth symphony goes, the vocal writing is about as unidiomatic as anything this side of Brian Ferneyhough. And the orchestrations of the fifth are poor as well. Compare them to Haydn's, or Mozart's or Schubert's!
Even his piano writing is at times very clumsy, and sounds quite bad on a modern piano, but a little cleaner on Hammerklaviers.
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With all due respect; Sid Vicious was such a failure, in art as in life, that I really cannot see how any comparison with Herrmann is valid.
But you are funny, though!
And I humbly disagree as to manners and respectfulness. An John Williams is about as far from "middle of the road" as you get.
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I am sure I am both bold and stupid, but my opinions are nevertheless well informed. Beethoven's ruthlessness towards musicians is also evident from his terrible orchestrations and atrocious vocal writing! By the same token, Williams' respectfulness is very clear in his grateful and graceful and brilliant writing.
as for style, well, I dare anyone to name a living composer with a more immediately recognizable style than Williams.
We should really stop endorsing the myths of misunderstood geniuses and tyrrannical artists; they're false, and very stupid at best, and at worst, harmful. They mustn't be perpetuated!
P.S.: I am not alone in my criticisms of Beethoven: Similar views have been voiced by Jerry Goldsmith, Francis Poulenc, Frederic Chopin and Maurice Ravel, among others.
Again, as a craftsman, I'm addressing technique, not style.
And, again: A great artist can only become greater for showing a kind interest rather than contempt for the world!
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"Fidelio" is severely dramatically flawed. Beethoven struggles to generate any kind of sympathy for his characters, and I find it very hard to care when I've seen it. Musically, it's evident that he has a poor understanding of how to musically convey emotion that is not his own. Beethoven lacks the empathy required for being a good dramatist. When he works with non-dramatic structures, he can of course be a lot more "dramatic", even theatrical (transition from movement 2 to 3, "Waldstein"..), but opera really wasn't his forte. Transition is certainly one thing Beethoven couldn't pull off convincingly. The going from one emotion to another becomes very schizophrenic, as in the dungeoun scene.
Steef: I would rather say that we as artists can only benefit from having a kind and caring attitude towards the "world" or the "other". We should wish to understand, not only to be understood. Our shortcomings as people are almost always artistically evident on some level. And as composers, I think it our responsibility to be generous and patient with musicians, as we are "in it together", fighting for the same cause (which is good music). And I've always found that the most accomplished artists I have met (and in some cases known), have been the most humble.
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I happen to believe that what I wrote in my last post is true, and can see only benefits to this belief.
Williams is humble and respectful, not only towards musicians and directors, but towards the human drama that he scores. This is why he captures emotion so well, and so completely.
This is also why Herrmann couldn't score "love" except from a very particular point of view. And why Wagner's characters never seem like real, living beings, and Mozart's do, even though Mozart's language is vastly more stylized. And it is why Beethoven couldn't write opera to save his life!
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Williams' politeness and decency prove him to be so much more of a man than those of his colleagues who fail to control themselves. I mean, Herrmann was a wonderful composer, but his attitude held him back, not only professionally, but artistically. Williams is a gentleman, and his art proves it. We are what we write, and write what we are.
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Goldsmith was rather bitter, it seems, and about several things. More than anything, I think he felt underappreciated by other serious musicians, and would have wanted more recognition of the complexity and artistic merit of his contribution to not only film music, but music in general.
Whereas Williams enjoys a wonderful career in the world of concert music, and the esteem of his classical peers, and always downplays his own efforts in interviews, Goldsmith tended to come across as a little bitter and disillusioned...He deserved a lot more recognition from the classical world, and it is a great shame he never really got it. Not in life, anyway.
I told him that I was going to dedicate my first symphony to him when I met him in London a few years ago, and he seemed genuinely touched, and very happy and grateful. He also seemed like a very, very sweet, kind and warm-hearted person. I overheard him talking to Richard Kraft about feeling sick, but I didnt realise then that he was actually more or less dying...
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I love the flute solo in "Leia's Theme" (concert version), and the solo from "My Friend, The Brachiosaurus".
There are plenty of amazing flute moments throughout the Harry Potter scores (Williams, of course, not Doyle), and I love the "Hedwig's Theme" counterpoint in "Harry's Wondrous World". Beautiful solos also in "Sleepers", "Stanley and Iris", and of course "The Seduction of Sukie" from "The Witches of Eastwick", plus "Hook", "Far and Away" and countless others.
Did Goldsmith ever conduct any of Williams' work?
in General Discussion
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Dear Publicist! Thank you for your informative reply!
I wouldn't say that Rodney-Bennett or Stockhausen or Kagel really have very distinctive styles (beyond the mere philosophical/theoretical aspects of Stockhausen's music), but they are certainly distinct musical personalities of the last fifty years++.
I never said Williams is the "avantgarde" of the 21st century. Thankfully, he is not! The "avantgarde", in the modernist perspective, is a terribly dated and boring paradigm, and I think Williams' concert music is a very welcome relief from those tendencies. Long live the "retrogarde"!
Goldenthal has a distinctive voice, albeit stylistically/technically very limited.
And I agree, Fenton deserves more recognition. But he is still not a composer of Williams' calibre. Nor is Stockhausen.