Doug Adams
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Posts posted by Doug Adams
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He might have gotten away with it with me in that climatic moment if he'd worked harder on creating an emotional division between the two ideas, made the connection much more subtly instead of bringing it down on my head like a mallet.
The use of the theme comes indeed very suddenly and in full force. There is no build-up as such, it just starts abruptly. This scene doesn't somehow earn it at this point in my opinion.
Again, that's entirely subjective, so I certainly won't argue your opinion. However, it's worth noting that this sequence begins with the Descending Thirds motif, which has been presented in a sort of devolved variation upon almost every appearance of Azog. The fight with Thorin is very much the culmination of a compositional thread that has been running throughout the full score. Obviously this doesn't make it better or worse, but it's important to note that there is, in fact, a dramatic through line.
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If that's the explanation behind the use of that theme, well, let me tell you, that's pretty lame!
It's not "the explanation," it's just another example of how the music of Mordor (or variations) is consistently assigned to the Orcs in this score. Love it or hate it, the finale is very much in keeping with the pervading approaching.
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Don't ban anyone on my account. They got me fair and square. No harm done ...
Peace,
D
- Marian Schedenig, Jay, crocodile and 3 others
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I assume you can't really explain the appearance of the Nazgul theme and the Lorien theme in action mode (although this makes ore sense) yet.
I haven't seen the film with finished fx, but from what I've seen, it's not clear where the Elves hail from (other than Elrond). I doubt Galadriel arrived unaccompanied.
As for the Ringwraiths, if you read between the lines of my previous post, I kind of did explain it.
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At no point in LOTR has the Lothlorien theme represented Rivendell elves or Legolas!
Well, the elves that arrive in Helm's Deep seem to support my point. Yes, they are from Lothlorien, but they are also sent by Elrond.
To me, Rivendell music symbolises more... ecumenic...for a lack of better words.. nature of Elrond, who seems to be more willing to interact with other races. Whereas Lothlorien describe the original Elvish nature.
That's purely my interpretation, though.
Karol
The Lorien theme plays because they are Lorien Elves, and that is that!
There isn't a single instance in LOTR that supports your interpretation.
Is the Nazgul music in the film a new recording, or is it tracked in from FOTR?
Could it be used for Azog because in the world of the film Azog is working for Sauron/Necromancer?
Nothing in the film suggest that link,.
It sounded like a new recording to me.
Ofcourse it's not completely without precedent. In the FOTR prologue Shore used Ringwraith material to represent Sauron. But in The Hobbit, there isn't a single tie that I can think of between the Nazgul and that scene.
Actually, Azog's theme throughout the score is a(nother) variation on the Descending Thirds, so there's already a connection to the Sauron/Necromancer material. Make of that what you will ...
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Has anyone taken a stab at a good chronological order for the special edition tracks? I know Doug Adams said they are arranged the way they are for "musical" reasons, but I'm curious if anyone has figured out where everything fits chronologically (if at all)?
I don't think Doug said anything about album sequencing at all, did he?
Well, I thought he did.
Doug, any idea why only 2 of the 6 "Special Edition-only" tracks were inserted into the flow of the main score, with 4 appearing at the end after the main presentation? Did Shore prefer it that way for a specific reason? Or was it a Water Tower Records decision?
It's presented this way for a specific musical reason. It will all make perfectly logical sense.
Ah! My apologies, I didn't realize you were talking about the bonus tracks -- thought you meant the main body of the score, which is essentially in film order.
Gotta keep track of my own posts!
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Has anyone taken a stab at a good chronological order for the special edition tracks? I know Doug Adams said they are arranged the way they are for "musical" reasons, but I'm curious if anyone has figured out where everything fits chronologically (if at all)?
I don't think Doug said anything about album sequencing at all, did he?
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Re: Misty Mountains --
As a bit of perspective, remember that composers such as Stravinsky and Tchaikovsky crafted some of their most highly regarded works out of preexisting folk melodies. Listen to Stravinsky's "Greeting Prelude" and tell me if you hear more evidence of the great Russian or of a children's birthday song. Heck, Bizet built one of Carmen's most famous melodies out a of song by a contemporary of his ... albeit unknowingly. The point is, this kind of thing is not at all without historic precedent. And in each of these cases, the composer did something so original with the preexisting melody that the backstories hardly registered. The songs and the composers' settings really became separate entities -- and neither diminished the other in any way.
Alternatively, think of it this way: you've now heard how Neil Finn worked with Plan 9/David Long's melody and how Howard Shore worked with it. Pretty remarkably different, no? It all about how the material is developed and who's developing it. Each musician made the piece his own. And that's not to take any credit away from Plan 9. They too made the piece their own in the diagetic presentation.
At any rate, I find Bilbo's two-part principal theme is what I walk away from the score humming. This is The Hobbit after all! It's also key to understanding the musical connection between Bilbo, Thorin, and Erebor.
Doug
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Im just curious as to why Shore didnt set Misty Mountains to music. Surely he was already "on board" even at that stage?
Hi tannhauser (love the name!),
Shore didn't work on the diagetic music for the LOTR films either. That's always been a Plan 9/Fran Walsh thing (or Billy, or Vigo ...). Only real difference this time is that the diagetic piece has been brought into the score a little bit more.
Best,
Doug
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Doug, any idea why only 2 of the 6 "Special Edition-only" tracks were inserted into the flow of the main score, with 4 appearing at the end after the main presentation? Did Shore prefer it that way for a specific reason? Or was it a Water Tower Records decision?
It's presented this way for a specific musical reason. It will all make perfectly logical sense.
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Doug, since you've written the notes, that means you've heard the music. Since you've heard the music, that means these CDs have been finalized for a little while now. Therefore, its probably safe to assume that they were assembled before the full scoring sessions were complete, right?
In other words, its likely that after the CD sequences were determined, Shore still kept writing new music and revisions to existing pieces to be used in the final film for a little while after. So the OST could very well contains alternate versions of things just like the LOTR OSTs, right?
I have heard the score; that I can confirm. I wouldn't have felt comfortable writing about it otherwise.
Other than that, I'll just say: it’s rarely safe to assume …
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Can you tell us, are the Deluxe liner notes expanded in comparison with the regular release? A bit like Annotated scores VS the finished book? Or do we have to wait and see?Doug, are you doing those "deluxe notes" on the special edition?
Karol
Yes, I did one set of liners for the Standard Edition and another for the Deluxe. It was an absolute joy!
I'm honestly not sure what I'm allowed to say. Uh, I guess the Deluxe notes are ... more deluxe. I can't get sued for repurposing an adjective, right?
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Doug, are you doing those "deluxe notes" on the special edition?
Karol
Yes, I did one set of liners for the Standard Edition and another for the Deluxe. It was an absolute joy!
- Incanus, crocodile, Joe Brausam and 1 other
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And what about Adams? I want to hear more info from that guy!
EDIT: There you go: http://www.musicoflo...ed-journey.html
"That guy"?
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I got it from an East Coast auction house that primarily specialized in items from American history: letters and speeches from presidents, etc.
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I own the pencil (well, the only one that still exists) with which Williams wrote the score to Star Wars, as well as a letter from him explaining the pencil's origins. Someday I'll see that it's placed in a museum, but in the meantime, it's sitting next to me giving me a massive inferiority complex.
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Really?
That's impressive. I had no idea it was available for viewing anywhere. I always assumed it was locked away in one of Williams' cabinets or something.
If the score sheets are out there, then maybe we'll see a recording of it after all.....some day.
Or a mock-up...
To be clear, there's nothing floating around on the internet. I was shown Williams' original manuscripts by an official source.
Sorry, hope I'm not getting anyone's hopes up.
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Is it good?
It's fascinating, but I can see why he eventually chose to abandon it. You can really see Williams working out certain technicalities -- mostly formal -- as he goes. It's not a train-wreck, it's just a bit of a workshop on paper.
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Very much like the wind sinfonietta in terms of counterpoint and harmonic language.
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I've read the score.
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The above discussion reminds me of the Hollywood in Vienna discussion session last year. No matter how often Shore said that he wasn't currently attached to The Hobbit, people kept asking if he had already written any music for it. And when the discussion was over, the organiser said in conclusion that Shore was currently writing the music for it. Not surprisingly, Shore looked slightly troubled by the end of the whole thing.
HS does not at all like to speak publicly about projects before they start, or while they're incubating. That early creative period is incredibly important to him.
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Well, I get this information from organizers of Ghent film music festival, where was Shore listed as one of the guests. They told me that he had to cancel his trip to Ghent, because he is in New Zealand and recording new music for Peter Jacksons new movie. So...? Did PJ making something else? ... TINTIN 2? =-O
Well then Shore most likely is there for the Hobbit.
Doug Adams has been very quiet about the Hobbit scores for a while now on his blog. Perhaps I'll ask him if he knows anything about this.He's currently in NZ. He's not currently recording anything.
... And that's all you're getting out of me!
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Doug, is it safe to presume the same "complete recordings" treatment will be given to The Hobbit scores?
That'll be more a decision of the studios and record companies, and it's honestly just too early for them to begin thinking about such things.
Certainly I would hope such a project will be possible ... and the success of the LOTR Compete Recordings and the book don't hurt the situation. But in short, we really don't know yet.
Of course, the score still has to be composed and recorded, so one thing at a time.
Howard Shore's An Unexpected Journey (Hobbit Part 1)
in Tolkien Central
Posted
The Descending Third underscores the Orcs in ROTK.
Again, I certainly don't mean to supplant anyone's opinion, but in point of fact, both the Wraith's signature chord and variations on the Descending Third are used throughout the finale and lead up to Thorin's charge. People may not love the pacing, etc., but the material is indeed in the scene.
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