Doug Adams
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Posts posted by Doug Adams
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Was the Dwarf Lords melody heard twice on the AUJ soundtrack originally planned to be much more prominent in the subsequent films?
It was meant to play a larger role overall, but nothing was written for DOS or BOFA while it was still in play, so it's impossible to know for certain what it might have done in those scores.
This was sort of a quest theme (the titles for the theme pieces on the album were all assigned after the fact and have little to no bearing on what the themes actually represented), and as such it functioned similarly to Misty Mountains. It's entirely possible that, like Misty Mountains, the theme wouldn't haven survived to DOS or BOFA.
EDIT: Sorry, this was referring to the "Erebor" theme track (which, similarly, was not a theme for Erebor). Same general answer applies to all the Dwarf theme pieces, however.
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Interesting.
Ziegler likely conducted the Nazgul theme for Thorin's log walk too, then.
I'm saying it's "possible," not "likely."
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I wouldn't think so either; I'm sure it was all the last-minute rewrites PJ wanted for the final picture
Do you know if Shore or Ziegler conducted the great Reclamation of Nature moment at the end of the film that isn't on the OST (and showed up again in BOFA) ?
I don't know the exact passages, but it was all last act/finale stuff, so it's very possible.
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Can any of Ziegler's work be heard on the OST?
No I don't think so.
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He conducted a few pickup sessions at the very end when time grew tight and Shore needed to concentrate on writing.
What was Robert Ziegler's role in AUJ?Pope's role in these scores still seems to be misunderstood.
They'd collaborated in a similar manner on Hugo.
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Pope's role in these scores still seems to be misunderstood.
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Or aquariums?Does Howard Shore like steam trains?
No one needs an aquarium.
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In the EE Bard marries one of his daughters off to Bilbo! I knew it!
Funny story ....
When the timing sheets were prepared for the DOS score, whoever was typing them up kept referring to Bard's oldest daughter as his wife. Shore had to send a handwritten note saying, "Hey, that's his daughter!"
- Incanus and SafeUnderHill
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Half of it.Well no, but we can generally agree that Bard's Family has its roots in the theme no?
Is there a reason why a theme for Bard's family would relate in any way to a theme for a Hobbit from the Shire?
Because to me, it seems more like Peter Jackson rejected the theme and Shore "salvaged" it by creating Bard and Family out of its core idea, not that's there a compelling in-story reason for there to be a connection.
If that's the case, I am curious how you will describe the connection in the book, since you don't really discuss that aspect of the filmmaking process in the books, really.
One of the greatest things I've learned from being close to productions such as this is that assumptions from afar seldom pan out. Better to wait for explanations that to leap to conclusions.
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Well no, but we can generally agree that Bard's Family has its roots in the theme no?
Half of it.
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I think, had the renditions in Axe or Sword? and The White Council remained in the film, I'd have been reasonably content (if a little disappointed), and that line of reasoning would have been sufficient, similar to the reasons given for the dropping of the Misty Mountains/Company theme thereafter. For one thing, the full Baggins-Took composition is rather long, and DoS and BotFA rather low on lengthy quieter character moments where it would fit. Maybe the Baggins and Took components could have played separately at various points, depending on Bilbo's actions? I don't know, just a thought.
I'd take a similar stance with Radagast's material, which I felt was another big loss, perhaps even contributing slightly to the rather negative reception to his character (in that the brilliant eccentric stuff might have helped his character get over better, increasing people's enjoyment of his scenes - maybe). I fail to see where that could be reprised in films 2 and 3 anyway (unless this Beorn chase during the escape from Dol Guldur features in the EE).
One of Radagast's secondary themes was originally set to reappear in BOFA, but it was changed shortly after the initial sketches.
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And at the end of Old Friends?
That's the Burglar Motif! Or is it? Too many darn similar ideas!
Funny thing: there is no burglar motif in The Hobbit. Never was.
Does Shore talk you through the music and what everything means, or does he leave it with you to digest and ask questions if you have any?
We constantly talk.
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And at the end of Old Friends?
That's the Burglar Motif! Or is it? Too many darn similar ideas!
Funny thing: there is no burglar motif in The Hobbit. Never was.
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To be honest, it's the complete absence of Bilbo's lovely main theme which bothers me. At least the Fussy and Adventure themes feature at various points.
While I'm inclined to agree, I can see how it could be argued that the struggle between his Baggins and Took natures ceases to be an issue after he finds the ring ... or somewhere around that time. (And again, there are a few tiny hints that make it into films two and three.)
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Good point.
How about something about the music!
It's been discussed how the Plan 9 "Misty Mountains" theme disappears after AUJ because The Company is over the Misty Mountains, and "House of Durin" is more appropriate now for their adventures, etc.
But what about Bilbo's personal themes introduced in AUJ? The Baggins/Took theme, the Fussy theme, his Adventure theme? Why do those go away too?
The Hobbit--and I'm going back to pure Tolkien here--is largely a story about change. LOTR is a story about restoring the world, but The Hobbit isn't. It's more "there" than "back again."
There was an attempt to reflect this musically by allowing themes to disappear, or change, or migrate. Misty Mountains was the one everyone noticed (and I get a good giggle every time this is chalked up to "copyright issues"), but it's not the only example. Thorin completely loses his theme for a while, and even when it returns, it's significantly altered. Some of Bilbo's themes travel with him through his fully journey, though they develop in such wonderfully interesting ways that many people haven't yet noticed. Keep your ears open for very subtle references to his Adventure motif.
As far as the Fussy theme goes, it departs as Bilbo changes. The Hobbit that once fretted over his handkerchief ceases to exist. (That was the point of him finding it back at Bag End in the finale, too.) But, he also gains a new theme that replaces it. It's character development by music. There's a lot of that in The Hobbit--and again, unlike LOTR the ending doesn't hit the reset button.
I think that, in time, listeners are going to find a lot of unique subtlety in these scores that they maybe missed the first time. That's certainly been my experience.
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Thanks. With that in mind, I'm interested to know why Jackson was talking about the EE for AUJ being 20-25 minutes longer just after the film came out, if he already had an idea of the difference (I know that's not something you can answer of course). I figured maybe at that stage it was planned for the High Fells scene to be included, though that still wouldn't make up the difference.
Might simply have been a slip of the tongue. We all make them--myself included.
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Doug do you know if a "traditional"* prologue was ever planned for the third Hobbit movie?
*IE, one that flashes back to events prior to the main narrative (as was done in the previous 5 films), instead of jumping right into the current narrative as the Theatrical Cut of BOFA does.
Not that I ever saw, no.
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There was some other DOS stuff ultimately not restored to the EE.
For example:
9:25-end of Flies and Spiders (Bilbo watching the company get capture by the elves?)
0:00-0:09 of The Woodland Realm (more of the same?)
Some short scene after The Master "welcome, welcome, welcome's" the company after Thorin's promise of wealth, that Bard's theme was used for - no idea what this could be?
And also Bilbo avoiding the smashing hammers during My Armor Is Iron
I did see the DOS hammers. Not really a sequence. Just a few shots. Very Droid Factory-esque.
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Sorry Doug, one last film-related question (since you're possibly our only realistic chance of knowing this) - did you ever see a pre-release 'extended' cut of An Unexpected Journey? And if so, do you recall anything unique about this compared to the eventual Extended Edition?
I did. Largely the same save for temp fx and a few editorial differences in the finale.
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So, to be clear, you mean that the whole Dol Guldur sequence was re-edited, and the Palantir scene would not fit into that new edit, not that the Palantir sequnece was reworked for a different context right?That said, it wasn't just tossed. The whole sequence was reworked. Palantir wouldn't fit in the final version of the film.
Correct.
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On a related note, Doug - can you tell us if the original cut of the Desolation of Smaug Extended Cut (we'll call it that) you saw included scenes other than the Palantir one which also didn't make the eventual Extended Edition we got? A simple yes or no would suffice.
EDIT: Mmm. Interesting. I suppose that makes sense, given that it wasn't scored with Smaug's themes. We may never know! That said, I recall reading something about Gandalf seeing a vision of Bilbo in peril during a battle, and having to save him (I think it was this - could be the other way round), and that this would later materialize in the Battle of the Five Armies proper.
I think that--and the material surrounding it--was the only thing that didn't make the EE.
That said, it wasn't just tossed. The whole sequence was reworked. Palantir wouldn't fit in the final version of the film.
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Shouldn't it have been an image of Smaug leading Sauron's armies, as per the Chronicles book?
It wasn't that.
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Hey Doug, while you are here, I have a question:
Do you remember what happened in the scene that Howard scored for DOS concerning him and Thrain with a palantir, that PJ ultimately decided not to restore to the EE of the film?
Do you remember any dialogue, or what vision Gandalf saw in the palantir?
I do, but I think the filmmakers would prefer to control how and when this would be discussed. I will be respectful of that.
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The whole of North. Nothing upcoming here either as far as I know.Not sure if you would know Doug, but any chance of the LOTR concerts coming up to Canada anytime soon? I know some new dates were announced, but once again, they curiously evade the North!
Always important to note that, in general, it's the orchestras that book these concerts. Want it to play locally? Contact your local a-list orchestra. That's almost always how the ball gets rolling.
Howard Shore's The Battle of the Five Armies (Hobbit Part 3)
in Tolkien Central
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There are rescued bits from the theme compositions in all three Hobbit scores. None really has any particular thematic connection anymore, however. LOTR was the same way. Early ideas often popped up elsewhere and were repurposed. Very common practice for all composers, not just film.
Btw, one the major Dwarf themes in AUJ began life as a Dol Guldur theme! Shore reshaped it and made it Dwarf-ier.
That's not a secondary Gandalf theme. It has a broader application.