Doug Adams
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Posts posted by Doug Adams
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No the AUJ titles are not related, I'm afraid.
Interesting. It's so interesting that Shore would introduce a theme there, intend it to repeat at the end of the movie when the Eagles rescue the company, and not be used anywhere else, including the sequel score. I wonder what his intentions were for that theme....
Likewise, the studios logos theme in DOS doesn't seem to appear anywhere else at all....
Well, some of us still consider the album version to be the canon version.
But what if it's an 'Erebor Reclaimed' theme Jason?
We actually do have a specific name/identity for it, but you'll have to wait for the liners to see it.
- Once, Jay, SafeUnderHill and 2 others
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It's the theme for the line of Durin, and gradually replaces Thorin's theme as the theme used for his heroic and kingly actions and he gets closer to reclaiming his kingdom. It's kind of a shame Shore hadn't written it yet last year, and could have but some building-block version of it in AUJ.
Ah, but you HAVE heard the building-block version ... it was in Thorin's theme. The new Dwarf theme is built over the same opening harmonies (A minor--G major). It touches on some other Dwarf themes as well. There's a strong cumulative effect in this one -- it has a lot of relatives!
NDAs, man! NDAs!
Nope.
It's the theme for the line of Durin, and gradually replaces Thorin's theme as the theme used for his heroic and kingly actions and he gets closer to reclaiming his kingdom. It's kind of a shame Shore hadn't written it yet last year, and could have but some building-block version of it in AUJ.
Ah, but you HAVE heard the building-block version ... it was in Thorin's theme. The new Dwarf theme is built over the same opening harmonies (A minor--G major). It touches on some other Dwarf themes as well. There's a strong cumulative effect in this one -- it has a lot of relatives!
You'll find a lot of forethought on display in this score (and, by proxy, in the last), but you'll need to listen to more than just the melodic lines.
Wow, very interesting, thanks Doug!
See, I'm not musically trained what-soever, so essentially all I really have to go by is melody a lot of times, cause that's the most easily recognizable thing to a "layperson" like me. That's cool that the Durin theme is built off of the Thorin theme (or perhaps, it makes more sense to say Thorin's theme is a deconstructed version of the Durin theme?). Still, wouldn't it have been cool to hear the full Durin theme like we have in DOS during the AUJ prologue, when we are seeing their kingdom in full glory before it was destroyed? Or during the Battle of Moria flashback as they charge against the orcs? Maybe a sad version for Thror's beheading? Just daydreaming here
BTW, am I right that the music that opens My Dear Frodo (playing under the studio logos) is a variant of the Durin theme?
No the AUJ titles are not related, I'm afraid.
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It's the theme for the line of Durin, and gradually replaces Thorin's theme as the theme used for his heroic and kingly actions and he gets closer to reclaiming his kingdom. It's kind of a shame Shore hadn't written it yet last year, and could have but some building-block version of it in AUJ.
Ah, but you HAVE heard the building-block version ... it was in Thorin's theme. The new Dwarf theme is built over the same opening harmonies (A minor--G major). It touches on some other Dwarf themes as well. There's a strong cumulative effect in this one -- it has a lot of relatives!
You'll find a lot of forethought on display in this score (and, by proxy, in the last), but you'll need to listen to more than just the melodic lines.
Yes I heard the relation to other dwarf themes immediately when I first heard it. As you say there is a very cumulative effect in it.
Doug can you give us (without breaking NDAs) small pointers on what should be we listening to beyond melodic lines to figure out musical relatives and continuations?
That actually gets pretty deep into spoiler territory I'm afraid. In fact, I think some of these connections won't be fully exploited until film three.
I can, however, mention that the Beorn theme is more about the accompanying figures below than the melodic line above. I know this isn't a connection per se, but it's a good example of a figure that isn't entirely clear without a bit of "deep listening."
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It's the theme for the line of Durin, and gradually replaces Thorin's theme as the theme used for his heroic and kingly actions and he gets closer to reclaiming his kingdom. It's kind of a shame Shore hadn't written it yet last year, and could have but some building-block version of it in AUJ.
Ah, but you HAVE heard the building-block version ... it was in Thorin's theme. The new Dwarf theme is built over the same opening harmonies (A minor--G major). It touches on some other Dwarf themes as well. There's a strong cumulative effect in this one -- it has a lot of relatives!
You'll find a lot of forethought on display in this score (and, by proxy, in the last), but you'll need to listen to more than just the melodic lines.
- Incanus, Dixon Hill, Bilbo and 1 other
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The line in question is not Arwen's theme; Arwen Revealed is a separate figure. The use of this line in DOS is consistent with its use in FOTR.
- Once, Dixon Hill, Incanus and 1 other
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Boy, this score is awesome! Can't wait to hear the extended tracks!
Speaking of Diminishment Of The Elves, I think I hear that theme appearing in "The High Fells", starting at 1:31, sung by the soprano.
Doug Adams tried, 5056464 times.
In short? Didn't work.
Karol
The horse was bound by "NDAs 'n shit", so if we didn't understand, it's probably because being tied by NDAs and having a cryptic way of speaking anyway are not a good combination when trying to talk some sense into rabid film score fanboys
Actually, this was the one subject about which I was very direct. And yes, "5056464 times" seems about right by my count.
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#1 was the standard version of Roast Mutton written first, or was the deluxe edition version written first?
#2 did the standard version of Old Friends (with the Shire theme on the Whistle) score the same section of film the deluxe version did?
#3: in the documentary on the AUJ score that was posted by WaterTower music, there is an unused cue being rehearsed by Shore, its also in the EE appendices, what was it for?
and #4, there was a bit of extra percussion from the Warg-Scouts in the EE documentary The Epic of Scene 88, was it an original version of the ending pre-decision to add the Lothlorien theme, or a unused portion, or is it just the drum track that plays underneath the Orchestra, that were isolated from the rest for the documentary*?
*If any timestamps are needed I can provide them.
#1 I believe Deluxe was taken from a version written in September, Standard was taken from a version written in October.
#2 Yes, though they're both edited to play smoothly on the album.
#3 I'll have to look this up when I have more time.
#4 While I can't promise such a thing does not exist, I have no record of any version of this composition without the Lothlorien theme.
- Incanus, Smeltington, Once and 1 other
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Correct. Some of what we listened to was mock-ups.
Doug, since you are here, could you shed some light on the alternate versions of tracks between the OST and SE of AUJ? or are you still contractually obligated to keep silent?
Ask away, but I probably have very little to add at this point. The differences are there because there was a lot of material generated and this seemed like a good way to present a bit more of it. There's really nothing linking the decisions, I'm afraid.
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Really? Doug was involved with the King Kong score?
Yep, I was on my way out the door to visit the sessions NZ when the phone call came in telling me to unpack my bags.
Later the following winter, Shore had me over to hear his full Kong score, but only so we could talk about it on a personal level. He asked me to please leave specific details out of the public discussion, and so I honor that request.
I will tell you that it was astonishingly beautiful, and that it had a great deal of heart ... I hope that everyone has a chance to hear it one day.
So does that mean then that not every thing he wrote got recorded?
Correct. Some of what we listened to was mock-ups.
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Really? Doug was involved with the King Kong score?
Yep, I was on my way out the door to visit the sessions NZ when the phone call came in telling me to unpack my bags.
Later the following winter, Shore had me over to hear his full Kong score, but only so we could talk about it on a personal level. He asked me to please leave specific details out of the public discussion, and so I honor that request.
I will tell you that it was astonishingly beautiful, and that it had a great deal of heart ... I hope that everyone has a chance to hear it one day.
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I have no earthly idea what people mean when they say "Spider theme".
You will ...
- SafeUnderHill, Once and Incanus
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Seven figures? O.O
Yep. Or at least pushing that, I'd estimate. It's a couple of days of work for a couple hundred highly qualified people in an incredibly expensive room. It's no wonder so many productions resort to crummy sample orchestras.
Doug while you're here, any idea why Shore wasn't asked to write new music for the new EE scenes that hadn't previously been scored (such as the Young Bilbo/Fireworks, Marketplace, or Thranduil jeweled necklace scenes), as had been done for all three prior EE films?
While I don't know for a fact that he wasn't asked, I'm guessing the thought of a seven-figure price tag (fees, studio, musicians, etc.) for less than a minute of music didn't look too good to the accountants.
Young Bilbo was always going to be source, btw.
And the three LOTR films have plenty of tracking as well. People tend to forget that.
Doug while you're here, any idea why Shore wasn't asked to write new music for the new EE scenes that hadn't previously been scored (such as the Young Bilbo/Fireworks, Marketplace, or Thranduil jeweled necklace scenes), as had been done for all three prior EE films?
My theory (and maybe Doug will confirm it) is that there was never any plan to do so. The EE is 13 minutes extra. Some of this score is found on the SE of the soundtrack so I assume that music was intended for those extra scenes. The Goblin song takes up some of that extra time and so does that Man in the Moon. I would also guess that Flaming Red Hair was intended for the party scene and we know the Valley of Imladris was extended. When you take all of that there doesn't seem to have been need for Shore to score what was left.
Maybe Doug will prove me wrong but that's just my guess.
This is all essentially correct!
Thought so
I'd have loved more music from Shore but I can understand why they didn't do it this time.
Seven figures is surprising but I guess it makes sense when you factor in all the various elements.
Thanks again Doug.
The thing is, he'd probably have written exactly what we heard anyway, so it kind of did make sense to do it editorially.
Also remember, Shore did write music for the Extended cut, he just recorded it in October 2012.
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Doug while you're here, any idea why Shore wasn't asked to write new music for the new EE scenes that hadn't previously been scored (such as the Young Bilbo/Fireworks, Marketplace, or Thranduil jeweled necklace scenes), as had been done for all three prior EE films?
While I don't know for a fact that he wasn't asked, I'm guessing the thought of a seven-figure price tag (fees, studio, musicians, etc.) for less than a minute of music didn't look too good to the accountants.
Young Bilbo was always going to be source, btw.
And the three LOTR films have plenty of tracking as well. People tend to forget that.
Doug while you're here, any idea why Shore wasn't asked to write new music for the new EE scenes that hadn't previously been scored (such as the Young Bilbo/Fireworks, Marketplace, or Thranduil jeweled necklace scenes), as had been done for all three prior EE films?
My theory (and maybe Doug will confirm it) is that there was never any plan to do so. The EE is 13 minutes extra. Some of this score is found on the SE of the soundtrack so I assume that music was intended for those extra scenes. The Goblin song takes up some of that extra time and so does that Man in the Moon. I would also guess that Flaming Red Hair was intended for the party scene and we know the Valley of Imladris was extended. When you take all of that there doesn't seem to have been need for Shore to score what was left.
Maybe Doug will prove me wrong but that's just my guess.
This is all essentially correct!
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Yo, Mikko - I finally followed the whispers of a nameless, uh, forum. Can't leave all the hard work to GK, now can I? I also believe this music is going to be awesome, but like Doug, I'm heavily biased. I also believe everything he is saying/allowed to say, but I heartily dislike that NDA nonsense (not a fan of corporate mentality).
I'll add an opinion or two where I feel it's substantiated enough. Otherwise, you'll get emotional reactions that may not be going to be politically correct.
The NDA thing isn't really all that nonsensical or nefarious. In a nutshell, it just states that I can't go out blabbing about the plot. It's kind of just the ultimate spoiler warning ... "give away the story and you owe us a billion dollars."
Yes, NDAs are corporate things, but they're derived from showbiz instincts. There's a reason stages have curtains.
NDAs don't cover people's personal lives, or details regarding production workflows. Sometimes I just don't answer questions or give details because it's not my place to do so. I'm enough of a bigmouth as it is ...
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Shore wrote every note you'll hear, same as ever. He writes themes away from picture, then writes the actual compositions to picture. It's the same process he's always used.
At the same time, he supervised the orchestration and the recording. This is a newer part process, however, he's implemented it to a lesser degree on his last couple of projects (going all the way back to Hugo), so it's not entirely new. No one noted a signifcant difference in sound then, and no one will notice one now.
Does the NZSO sound like a different ensemble to discerning ears? Sure, a bit -- but no more so than the sound of the LPO changed over the years as membership changed. The ensemble that played FOTR wasn't exactly the same as the ensemble that played TTT, etc. If you picked up on this, you'll notice a slightly different sound to the group. If you didn't notice this, you won't notice anything here. The engineers, etc. are all Middle-earth vets, so they've made sure the sound flows seamlessly.
Does the conducting change the sound? Well, not really, to be honest. Shore's principal job as a session conductor is to make sure that the ensemble understands the overall concept. So Shore worked with Pope through much of the summer -- and continuing through the fall -- to make sure he understood the concept. A session conductor is obviously not playing with tempo or even with interpretation, because that messes with the sync and the mix. It's a different gig. Even most of the balance comes from the ears in the booth.
And though it's getting silly, I will reiterate, Shore is entirely healthy. Saw him last month, and he looked better rested than I do on the Hobbit appendices ... speaking of ...
No, Shore did not sit down for a new face-to-face interview for the appendices. Part of that was due to schedule (most of the appendices material was shot during the spring and summer when Shore was working on DOS; part of that due to the fact that sometimes people just don't enjoy having a camera shoved in their face. Shore is a pretty private guy. Despite the fact that he knows everyone in the industry, his inner circle is relatively small. There's a reason he lives in a forest. He likes quiet. Many composers do, which is hardly surprising.
The musical emphasis in this years appendices was songs, anyway. That was always going to be the focus, Shore or no Shore. I was asked to speak a little about the songs and to speak a little more about Shore's work, which I was happy to do. I've watched the doc once with my wife, and I showed the first few minutes to my parents, and that'll probably be the last time I look at it. I hate seeing myself on camera. But, it's good! The emphasis is definitely on the songs, but I believe the tentative plan is to do more in-depth score discussion next year.
I know that these threads last longer and are more entertaining when we all resort to exaggeration, in-character posts, and negativity that requires responses, but please try to remember that this is how ugly rumors get started. And rumors are strong currency in the fan community. Making a joke of a person's health is never cool; there's no way to sugar-coat that.
I don't stop by here that often -- though I stop by often enough to see who's making fun of me ... gotta keep the "naughty list" up-to-date!
But, if you have questions -- the type that I can actually answer -- feel free to flag me on Twitter (@DougAdamsMusic) or on the blog (www.MusicofLOTR.com)I don't want to dissuade conversation here, but maybe all these "curious," "suspicious," "doom," posts could give way to actual material discussion if you'd just ask! I'm not scary. Just look at me in the appendices doc ... I'm really just a scrawny musician-type with access to interesting people.
Ok. Horse out.
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I'm surprised nobody has commented yet on how present Shore is in the EE appendices really is. Any news on that?
They hired his stunt double.
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Doug would have to hire a bodyguard or two if this happens.
Doug has said nothing at all regarding Hobbit Complete Recordings because he knows this isn't even up for discussion yet, and won't be for a long time.
- Once and Alex Shore
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He's not scoring Wolf of Wall Street and he's completely and utterly healthy. The schedule--and travel--simply worked better with a few tasks divvied up. The NZ performance is great and the music is entirely Shore's, don't sweat it. There's no news because people are ... you know ... working!
This score is going to knock everyone's socks off; it's *phenomenal*. But don't look for details for a while yet. Work comes first, promotion after. The play's the thing.
-The Horse
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I'm a horse?
- SafeUnderHill and Once
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Oh I see. Is that not a bit of a stretch?
That's probably why I phrased it like that.
- Smeltington and Once
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Definitely one of my more boring posts! Sorry ... I'll try to improve later this fall.
D
Doug has finally posted on his LOTR blog. The three main points are:
1. The LOTR:CRs might actually be OOP - he's not sure.
2. He has no idea if ROTK: Live To Projection will ever happen at RCMH
3. He can't give any hints about any other upcoming Live To Projection shows
Full post:
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No one is arguing the material.
Huh, actually, I am!
Doug, I have a question for you which I'm afraid you probably won't be able to answer to, but I'm gonna ask it anyway.
In the case of an eventual CR release, what would appear on the CD: the Ringwraiths theme, or the choral material appearing in Out Of The Frying-Pan?
Your feelings serve you well ... I can't answer that! Sorry!
D
Howard Shore's The Desolation Of Smaug (Hobbit Part 2)
in Tolkien Central
Posted
... Well, actually, you may see a *little* sooner than that. (He said, portentously.)