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Posts posted by David Coscina
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East West Quantum Leap have just released their epic Hollywood Strings- a whopping 320gb string library that purports to sounding like the real thing. While it still wont replace top notch string groups, I can say it gets the closest to that real timbre and sound to string players I have ever heard from samples and the level of realtime control to be able to affect vibrato depth and dynamics is nothing short of amazing. Here's a quick little demo I did using them and some VSL. It's a basic i-IV chord progression that James Horner loves to use all the time. There's also a touch of Goldsmith when the cellos move down to the Lydian raised 4th and flat 7 (very whole tone scale like). The celli line showcases the Hollywood Strings in particular.
http://www.box.net/shared/yovpj27pbl
keep in mind this was done in about 30 minutes so it's not too elaborate,
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From the description it could be re-named "The Black Stallion Meets Private Ryan"
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Over the past week, I have been privileged to attend performances by the Toronto Symphony Orchestra of Sibelius' 7 symphonies. The orchestra completely floored me with how fine their reading was of these pieces. Also, I never appreciated the compositional technique of this composer until I attended these performances. I now cannot stop playing the 3rd Symphony with its quiet tone, especially in the 2nd mvmt. Of course last night was the highlight of the Sibelius Festival when the TSO under Thomas Dasgaard played the majestic 5th Symphony with that amazing 3rd mvmt (the horn line was executed perfectly by the TSO brass).
One thing I noticed during all of these symphonies was how filmic Sibelius' ideas were- or rather how film scores had taken elements from his music. I'm not pointing fingers because it's more the orchestration than anything. Sibelius' use of antiphonal writing in the strings in particular was made all the more prevalent in the live performance when you can actually hear the spacialization more accurate.
Next season, the TSO is hosting John Adams for an evening and I already have tickets to that series (performing Harmonielehre, Short Ride in a Fast Machine, City Noir and Tromba Lotana over the course of 3 concerts with Noir conducting by the composer himself!).
I always thought of the TSO as a second class world orchestra to the finer American orchestras but over the past couple years they have performed stellar concerts.
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No offense but you're not likely to get too many takers on this forum since it's a John Williams forum and those who compose most likely write orchestral music of some sort. Also, temp tracks are a real pain for most composers and you flatly asking someone to write a song in the same vein doesn't help matters.
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This is the first HP installment since Williams' last entry that I'm actually looking forward to hearing. The last few I have had no interest in.
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I hope Desplat will do both parts.
This is a rare but I agree with Koray. Desplat is able to channel Williams but still retain his own style....unlike some other composers I won't mention.
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I love Banning Back Home. Which Grusin work is similar?
I can't find the reference but it's the one cue that feels completely out of place on the score. It doesn't sound anything like Williams. Over the years quite a few people have remarked about the similarity to Grusin.
Actually the track reminds me of some of Grusin's On Golden Pond with the rhythm section and chord voicings in particular.
Indy4, the reason I responded that way to Koray is that I dislike the arrogant tenor of his one-liner. I didn't start this thread to knock down Williams- I was just surprised at the similarity in the phrases and ornaments. I always thought Goldsmith was far more influenced by Stravinsky and Bartok but I do hear them in Williams' music too.
I attribute this mostly to Williams' fantastic knowledge of classical music repetoire. I hear Prokofiev in Alex North too and I have mad love for his music so it's not that I'm going to throw out all of my Williams or North collections because they graze across a classical reference.
I also agree with the forum member who said that Williams' strongest stuff is his original material anyhow.
NP- Symphony #4, Sergei Prokofiev
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John Williams does this all the time.
like you'd know. Name me another classical piece Williams rips off smart guy
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I always loved how active the wind writing was on the cue "Tink Arrives & Flight to Neverland" but after hearing Stravinsky's Firebird Suite today, I'm a little miffed at how closely Williams' cue resembles parts of the Firebird. It's not the tempo, it's actual phrases and motives as well as the same ornaments on pivotal notes. I don't know whether Spielberg temped this part of the film with the Firebird or what but the similarities are a little unsettling to me. I also found a nice lift from Korngold's Sea Hawk in "Hook-napped".
I still love HOOK don't get me wrong but some of what I loved about it has been tinged with a little disappointment in the realization that it's not wholly Williams' genius. It's Igor's and Erich's too!
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Dragonslayer is a masterpiece. Probably the best orchestrated score in film music history. Additionally it's packed full of as many themes as a John Williams epic.
It's complicated and dissonant though, be prepaired to take a few listens before you get it.
I totally agree. I wrote a long analysis of it for FSM that never made it to print but was featured on their Film Score Daily column.
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I have listened to HTTYD, but I wasn't particularly overwhelmed. I really don't know why. While I admire Powell's craft and appreciate his original style, there is usually something missing for me in most of his scores. He writes some impressive cues, but apart from them, I cannot identify with much of his underscore. I agree he is one of the best in Hollywood today, though.
I think he sometimes overwrites. Sometimes his cues are a little too busy and occasionally I think he uses rhythm loops and percussion as a crutch. I would love to hear him write more rhythmic ostinati for pitched instruments to attain that kinetic propulsion. I think he has it in him.
that said, this score is a terrific addition to a terrific career.
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After long long long time, Alex North's amazing Dragonslayer is available from La La Land and based on the preview tracks, it's a stunning representation of a complex and dynamic score. I also bought John Powell's How to Train Your Dragon from iTunes and I also find it terrific. Very different from what I normally associated with dragon fare but I love his use of bagpipes in it. There are some terrific virtuosic moments too along with long spun themes. Powell keeps impressing me and while he doesn't have the delicate detail of an Alexandre Desplat, he has the same attention to harmonic development and dramatic development that I haven't seen from the other R-C group. In fact, it's sounds as though Powell has distanced himself from them stylistically. That's a promising thing.
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Yes but composer who lower their standards to match what the current demand is, I have zero respect for. Herrmann says it best.
"I don't like film composers who go well this would be a great idea but the audience is too stupid so i'll debase the music to their level, and if the director complains a composer with standards should walk away from it and I don't like composers who will settle for what is below their standard to make a buck" -Bernard Herrmann
"If somebody told me what to write i'd say get somebody else, i'm a composer it's my profession I don't need some half witt director telling me what to write." - Bernard Herrmann
You see the problem has got nothing to do with what the demand is. The problem is that we lack composers with the balls to have artistic integrity. And that in a nutshell is the problem with film music today.
I actually think it's more they lack the over all skills combined with not so much backbone and the fact that there is so much competition to get jobs in Hollywood these days. Where once you had to have SOME musical skills to be able to compose orchestral music for film, now anyone with a decent Pro Tools or Logic rig can get the job done with meandering soundscapes that lack melodic and harmonic development. Some may say that's not important but music that mirrors the development of the narrative IS ultimately more effective than simple droning or atmosphere pads that add NOTHING to the film whatsoever.
yes, some composers can write for brass in exciting ways but dumb down their approach to pay the bills. But I would largely say that most popular composers working today (no names but you know who I'm talking about) simply do not know enough about orchestration to get the most out of the brass section...or wind section...or any other section. Pity but true.
p.s. Things like Don Davis' MATRIX series are an aberration not the norm. Look at how polarized Jonny Greenwood's score was among film goers. People either loved it or hated it vehemently. I say good going to him for at least provoking a strong response. And the music challenged the audience, whether in a good way or bad way.
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It depends on what you are looking for. If it's virtuosic performances and sections that really cover all ranges and styles of what brass instruments can do, I would say the clear winner is Williams. Goldsmith wrote some amazingly great stuff in the '60s and 70's, but started to decline in terms of outright virtuosity in the late '80s early '90s after Total Recall. Williams has continued to compose challenging parts for brass players.
While I like the sound of big unison brass parts, like The Final Conflict, I don't think it's a reflection of how adept a composer is at writing for that choir group from the orchestra. Goldsmith used a lot of those big unisons for his streamlined style in the '90s. Mulan, The Edge, The Mummy are a few notable examples. I honestly prefer his atonal or dissonant use of the brass in things like "New Friend" from Papillon with the fluttertongued parts in the brass creating an astringent sound. Or the powerful pedal point trombones in "Hanging On" from First Blood.
A really fine example of tremendous brass writing is Alex North's Spartacus. I would say the opening credits is probably one of the most impressive examples of the full brass choir. My thoughts.
This is a very relavent thread for me personally as I'm working on a film score where I'm eschewing strings and winds in favor of brass, percussion and celesta. So I've been going over a variety of examples of terrific brass writing in concert music and Williams definitely has come up amidst the likes of Bartok, Stravinsky, Mahler and Prokofiev.
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Yeah, I also use Logic 9 or DP7.1 depending on the project. The composer I'm working for/with now uses DP so I am trying to keep things consistent. I just prefer writing everything out on manuscript first and assigning hitpoints that way so I can see everything and create some nice shape to the music. I will have to export the file into DP for performance purposes I guess. It didn't sound terrible in Sibelius although it's better to use that only for mock-ups when a real orchestra is ending up playing the cue.
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I disagree. I'm much faster in Finale. Though I have much more experience with Finale, my first attempts with both programs happened around the same time, and Finale initially struck me as less pretty but more straightforward to use. It's really one of those "your mileage may vary" situations - just like with Macs vs. PCs, it really comes down to how your own brain works best.
I agree. Some things in Finale are great like assigning dynamics or articulations to an entire passage. On the other hand, changing note durations, adding instruments, and playback controls seem much quicker to me in Sibelius. Whatever works is my philosophy.
Dave
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I use Sibelius and find it very easy to use, and enjoyed getting to know the program. Then again I also use a mac, so I guess I like pretty things.
I also have Mc and have Finale 2010, but I have never worked with Finale before. How easy is Sibelius on a Mc?
It's pretty bloody fast. Believe me, I have no hate for Finale 2010- I like it. But I have been trying my hand at scoring a cue directly in Sibelius and it's a dream. I probably have to export it as a SMF for greater realism in Digital Performer but as far as composing goes, yeah, it's a lot faster than Finale. Sorry.
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thanks ET Music. I forgot about setting up the laptop short cuts on Sibelius. I still find a lot of great things on Finale but I will say that Sibelius is faster for me to compose on. I'm glad I have both anyhow. Different needs.
You wouldn't happen to know how to get a convincing timpani roll using the Garritan Personal Orchestra would you? I always thought there was a KS for a sampled roll but cannot find one and the roll that the program does is pretty fake sounding.
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Depends on who you ask.
Both Finale and Sibelius have certainly been used by plenty of major engravers, in the film industry and beyond. I happen to be very partial to Finale - I think it produces more professional results, and although many disagree with me, I find it to be easier to learn and use than Sibelius. It's an extremely flexible program that can certainly handle customization such as large time signature symbols. There are certainly people who have great success with Sibelius, though...difficult as that is for me to understand. I totally agree. I have both Sibelius 6 and Finale 2010 and I much prefer Finale. Yes, to compose basic stuff, Sibelius is faster. Get into complex larger scores and Finale is a better option IMO.
...and this is why we use Finale instead.
Seriously, it's very easy to do brackets and numbers like that in Finale, and not much harder to do large time signatures. Well, getting them horizontally compressed like that would require a font that looks that way, but yeah. I don't know how to do the brackets in Sibelius.Large time sigs appear above the first system and last system in the conductor's score in Sibelius 6. finale 2010 allows you to place even bigger time sigs anywhere. I prefer this. Also I prefer the Speedy Entry (no MIDI input) to the virtual keyboard that comes with Sibelius. I like typing in my music because I'm fast at it and don't like to be a slave to the keybaord, And there's no other way of inputting notes aside from mousing it in in Sibelius 6.
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The Garritan Personal Orchestra 4 has greatly improved their brass samples as they partenered with Project SAM known for their excellent brass samples in particular. I use GPO4 with Finale 2010 and get very good results. Not that it's gonna replace my VSL/Symphobia/EWQLSO /LASS set up any time soon.
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I did like this interview. He's become a lot more modest about himself and his abilities. What he said in the past isn't great but it was 5 years ago so it's history.
If he wins over Giacchino, I wouldn't be too upset. If Giacchino wins, it will also be well deserved. As long as one of them wins....
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No don't put this back on me. Your post states with no suggestion of sarcasm that Yared shouldn't be in the business. And, no I'm not Yared's spokesman but I am a friend of his so yeah, your comment irked me to say the least.
And I don't think my post was as inflammatory as you suggest.
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He used the phrase "how atrocious the music was". His entire tone said that he could write a more fitting score in 10 days than Yared did in a year. That's arrogance in my book.
how is that arrogance? He obviously knows what he is capable of, interesting that Horner could come up with something so much better in a few weeks than that guy in one year.. seriously, why is that guy still in the biz.?
It's one thing to not like a composer's output but to assert that he should not be in the business is plain stupidity. Yared writes circles around Horner AND it's original. Listen to Camille Claudel or Cold Mountain or even City of Angels. He might not be as prolific but he's got his compositional chops and then some. And if you weren't a woman, I would be much harsher with my sentiments towards your vacuous post.
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Yeah, that Williams is such a prick. So full of himself....[rolling eyes]
Hollywood Strings by East West
in General Discussion
Posted
Jack, you make good points. I also have LA Scoring Strings and for those really detailed sections, I'm glad I have it. I also love the spiccato samples. But try as I may, I cannot get a lush sound out of those strings. They sound very realistic- like you're actually sitting amidst a string orchestra- but to get that really silky smooth sound I find Hollywood Strings better. Not to sound arrogant but unless you actually own both libraries and work with them extensively, your opinion can only be based on my demo and the demos up at the EW site- and frankly, none of them quite do the library justice. The actual tone of the samples is really amazing. They don't sound dead- they sound like real players are bowing. I find that quite impressive as most of the libs I have (and I have a lot of them) always miss this crucial element.
Anyhow, I'm at work so I can't hear your LA Scoring Strings demo but you're a very talented composer and I'm sure you rock with this library. I'll listen when I get home later tonight.